pascalc

lol, do you want a picture of the materials ok here is one hehe...yeah sure no problem, I will start a build log thread soon! I will link this thread to it and vice versa, and when I'm done deadening the car I will post up pictures of the work done so far

That's good to know! Thanks for the added information. Awesome, that's good to hear, thanks! I will have to take some time and play with them in WinISD as you suggested and then go from there. Are you building some outdoor or marine speakers with those Faitals? Every week I have been checking the Alpine press releases for updates and pacific stereo to see if the new Alpine's are in stock but no luck thus far. I don't want to rush things, I want to do things right so I have slowed down my pace on this project (plus summer is here and the activities are ramping up so time is even more limited). On the upside, my surgery went well and I'm back to normal so I can't wait to start building my box as well (which will be my next step after my deadening is completed). And speaking of deadening, finally here is another update on my project. I received my full order from Don at SDS last week, (great service from Don, thanks Don!). I had ordered enough material to cover all four doors and the trunk to start with. I got some CLD tiles, Butyl rope, 1/8" CCF, MLV, 3M Thinsulate Acoustic, velcro strips and a maple roller. Unfortunately Don couldn't ship the HH-66 vinyl cement through the mail so I found a local source for it this weekend and picked up an 8oz can. Since I now have all my materials to complete the job, I'm looking to start my deadening this weekend since I don't have any big plans thus far (and hopefully complete, time and weather permitting of course). I took the entire day off on Friday for a medical appointment so I should be able to start on the deadening Friday afternoon. I really can't wait to hear the difference this will make!

Been busy lately (snapped the forward band in my transmission, got it repaired; been tinkering with a new chinese ATV I bought for my daughter; being lazy and spending more time with my family, I can't always spend most of my time on my projects ) so I haven't had time to do much progress on my audio upgrade project but I've got some updates. Don got back to me, as he requested I supplied him with measurements of my doors/trunk and he sent me a response with his recommendations for my vehicle. When I last spoke with him he was out of 1/8" CCF foam which he recommended over the 1/4" CCF but he was supposed to get his order in sometime last week week so im looking to place my order this week to start on the deadening (providing he did receive his shipment of CCF of course). I did some reading on some various DSP's (Alpine PXA-H100 & PXA-H800, JBL MS-8, Audison Bitone). As it stands I'm leaning towards the Alpine units, particularly the PXA-H800. With the PXA-H800 (~700$ and the RUX controller, ~250$), I can do all tuning upfront and it will work with any aftermarket HU. And since it's a standalone unit, this unit should serve me for years to come (an investment really), if I decide to upgrade then this DSP can be moved to my girls car regardless of the HU she will have at the time. Alpine currently has the INA-W910 which is feature loaded and I could feed optical from the HU to the DSP but I don't need navigation which is one reason why I never considered that HU last year. But I'm looking ahead and later this summer Alpine is coming out with two new HU, the IVE-W530 and IVE-W535HD (iPhone App Mode support stated for August) but I couldn't find out much details about them yet but I read somewhere that they most likely won't have optical out (not a big deal since the analog input signal is supposed to be real clean on the PXA-H800 from the reviews I read). My second choice would be to get an IXA-W407 (~750$) with a PXA-H100 (~150$) but then I lose out on some of the iPhone App Mode functionality but I would be spending about the same amount of money for a DSP solution, and because I'm thinking long term then the PXA-H800 seems like a better choice for me. As for tweeters/drivers, I'm still interested in the Dayton tweeters, I was reading reviews on both the RS28F or RS28A. The RS28F is supposed to be brighter up top which some say will help with off axis dispersion (which is a good thing since they will be mounted off axis) but the aluminum dome is supposed to have less distortion (which could be good since I plan to cross low). Now I'm not sure if this is correct or not but I did some reading on choosing a driver based on the TS parameters and from what I could gather, since I'm more concerned with lower frequencies I should ensure the driver has high efficiency and good xmax, then I can EQ in the lower frequencies (if needed of course) since I would have the headroom to do so. I've narrowed my choice down to a few drivers, the B&C 8NDL51 or 8PS21 (the 8PS21 has better response in the low end around 100Hz but the 8NLD51 has a lower FS and better xmax), the 18 Sound 8NMB420 (the best response curve, I think...and the lowest FS, but xmax was lower then the B&C's) and finally the Faital Pro W8N8-200 (good response in the low end but not as good around 1-1.5K compared to other drivers, I think it had the best xmax of all but a FS of 74). Again if my statement above regarding high efficiency and good xmax is false (or not totally correct), then I'll possibly have to re-evaluate my choices. I was hoping to start building my new subwoofer box/boxes soon but that might have to wait another week or two since I'm going for minor surgery this week and according to the doctor I should not do any lifting,sports,etc... for at least one week afterwards, and then slowly ease in to my regular activities. So we'll see...

Ok good point, thanks! I looked over some of my notes I had taken when I was researching the tweeters and I am now leaning on either the Dayton RS28F-4 (60$) as my first choice or the Seas Prestige 27TDC06 (50$) as my second choice. I will have to find a stereo shop around my area that will let me listen to their speakers to be able to do a fair comparison of different cone materials with my own ears but in all honesty, I get used to something real quick (even sub par sounding speakers), I'm not picky and I'm easy to please (sounds bad, yeah I know ). So whichever tweeter/woofer that we can find, regardless of cone material, I'm sure I will be more than pleased with them. When its all said and done, installed in my car, THEN at that point id be more in a position to start "experimenting" out different tweeters, drivers, etc... in my own "controlled environment" as a learning experience. Since I'm starting to get deeper in car audio with this build then I ever thought I was going to get, I figure that as long as I setup something that's closer to my needs then my current system, I'll have a good baseline to work on and will keep learning more about the hobby as time goes on (upgrading, trying out new driver's, etc...). So If my choice in tweeter is good for now, then I should start looking at some 8" woofers that cover ~80Hz-1kHz? Would you have some suggestions for me to get me started? As for a headunit, I currently run a Pioneer AVH-4300DVD which I bought new last year. After searching through a bunch of HU's I ended up with the Pioneer for a few reasons (these are the main reasons why I picked this HU): - Double DIN unit with an LCD (I don't like flip outs) to play DVD's/videos/etc... - Three 4V pre-outs - iPod/iPhone app mode to watch Netflix, etc... - 8 band parametric EQ If an HU exists out there that can almost match the above and has signal processing built in then you might be able to sway me in changing my HU I'm not willing to give up my LCD for DVD's, app mode to watch netflix, etc.. to have a built in DSP, well not yet anyways since I use those features extensively... Thanks!

Ok thanks! I just forwarded the email back to Don as suggested, If I don't hear back from him by the weekend then I'll open up a thread in that section. Thanks for the amp suggestions! I will look into those as well! As for PE, that's good to know, thanks. I never ordered from PE so I wasn't aware that they had such a good return policy!

Ok, im willing to give up stage height and some high's to leave the tweeter around the same location, I can always relocate them later on. Either if I feel like I want the stage height or if I ever go with a 3 way setup in the future, I can put a ~3" mid in the tweeter location. I looked at most if not all of the tweeters you mentionned, I looked mostly at the Fs, the frequency response graph, SPL and power handling (wasn't sure on what to look for exactly asides those to make a descision). To me they all seemed very good so its a tough choice, but if im not mistaken, the Scan D2904 you mentioned (I picked the D2904/980000 out of the other D2904 models). It seemed to be one of the only ones that had an almost flat response even well below 1kHz, at 200$ each they are pricey but seem worth it for my application. Is this a good choice? As for preference for the cone material, I have none really, my Type-X just came as a metal cone but I wasn't looking strictly for a metal cone driver. I actually did some reading on this subject last night and found varying opinions, without hearing the same driver with different cone materials, I wouldn't know what to listen for. Currently for amps, I have only a single Alpine PDX-5 and according to the Alpine specs, it does 4 x 75W RMS @ 4 ohm + 1 x 300W RMS @ 2 or 4 ohm, my birth sheet claimed 4 x 97W and 1 x 357W @ 14.4V. Although as part of my plan's, I wanted to buy two new amps, one for the cabin speakers (which will now be my front stage only) and one for the sub stage and my PDX-5 was to be transferred to my girl's Altima. I looked at the Alpine PDX line of amps for my new amps because of their small size and ability to give same power in 2 or 4 ohm. But I noticed that the Crescendo Audio amps were added to the store this morning, I looked at the BC2000D for my sub stage and the C1100.4 for my front stage. Both of those amps together are 800$ which is almost half the price of an Alpine PDX-F4 and PDX-M12 and they put out almost double the power, the only drawback is that they are much larger amps but I could have the room If I build a proper rack for them. Until I nail down tweeters and woofers, im still undecided for the new amps... As for processing, still undecided on that, once we nail down the tweeter and woofer, then I'd imagine we will be in a better position to pick a DSP unit. On a side note, I sent an email to Don @ SDS on Friday with the materials I would require but have yet to hear back from him. Does he tend to respond quickly or is he really busy and takes a few days to respond? Maybe he just didn't get my email either, I should probably send him another email tonight...

If I can keep the tweeter in the same location as it is now that would be ideal (since I wouldn't have to fabricate a pod for it). If its better to relocate it instead of the factory location, I could mount it at the top of the panel just above my door controls between my mirror and my gauge (depends on tweeter size). Alternatively, maybe I could mount it in the A pillar. Here is the factory location I will check out those tweeters you mentioned, thanks!

Its pretty much the entire band (the guitars and drums together) that I enjoy but If I had to pick an instrument id say drums, then guitars. For tweeters, I looked at some of the small scan speak tweeters today, they seemed good and people praised them and they could be crossed around ~2.5kHz, they are pricey, ever tried them? Earlier tonight I measured the clearance from the window bracket to inside of panel, 4 inches of clearance (to inside of panel) if I allow 1/8" of clearance from the window bracket. The actual driver can be a little deeper (up to about ~5 inches, to stay about flush with door panel). Thanks, good to know. I check my seals after each winter and they are good! I will deaden the car with cld and install ccf and mlv, just waiting on Don from SDS to come back with the shipping quote so I can place my order.

lithium, Ok, I will have to take the panel off again to measure the exact depth I have, I will do that this week. As for cutting up the trim panel (and maybe even part of the door), I was ready to do that to fit an 8 inch so that's no problem at all. Also, my A pillars do not have any air bags. armykyle1, Thanks!

Yeah it might be tight but I'm pretty sure an 8" would fit. As for the tweeters, they could either be mounted near their current location or up higher in the panel...of course it depends on the size of the tweeter. Here are some pictures of my current driver installed on the plastic factory "support tower", a shot of the back of my trim panel and a shot of the top of the panel where the tweeters could possibly be mounted between the mirror and my gauge (depends on size again). As for install efforts, I'm willing to make the effort to fit an 8" and make a custom mount if required. I've never fabricated custom MDF mounts (doesn't look too hard from what I've seen) nor worked with fiberglass but its something I've always thought of trying, I know its a lot of work (well I think from what I've seen) but I'm not scared of trying. As for eq'ing, I'm willing to do as much as required to get the sound I want or as close to it but I don't have access to an oscilloscope or RTA for tuning...except I've got an iPhone 4 and there's an RTA app that some said is worth it...I tried the free version RTA Lite but don't know how accurate the app is... Thanks! I landed on your CarDomain page and saw your custom fiberglass pods for your doors while searching for "Crescendo XST2" on Google images, they look really nice!!

Alton, thank you for the comments! I enjoy being so thorough and usually take my time typing up my posts and then I re-read them before submitting to ensure the information I provide is thorough and easy to understand by all because I believe its the best way to getting the best advice/response to the information being provided. It's a good feeling when your searching for something on the web and find a great post with lots of detailed information on exactly the same thing your are trying to achieve. Being so thorough can have its disadvantages though, my girl frequently tells me I'm anal retentive because I always try to cover every angle before I make a move. Simply put, Id rather produce work in quality over quantity so my work pace is slower than most! For the small sealed enclosures, that's good to know thanks! And I myself can't wait to build/test out the new enclosures and provide the results to all!

Since you used to play in a band and covered some legendary bands, I'm sure you have attended quite a few metal shows as well so you will know what I'm talking about...I've attended quite a few shows both outside and inside, and for me, my most memorable show is seeing Lamb of God headline a few years ago in a small arena. The sound was so LOUD and CLEAN, every bass drum kick and other low note percussions were felt in your chest and seats, the bass guitar shook the entire arena and the vibrations were felt in the floor/seats (you could "feel" that bass guitar string vibrating the arena), the guitars alike and sounded crisp and edgy. Nothing like I ever experienced at other shows, maybe the arena acoustics played a factor, who knows....(and yes seats, no more pits for me since my major motorcycle accident, I'm lucky to have both my legs and be able to walk today!). Since I have a family now, working full time as a network administrator and required to do OT every second or third weekend so my time nowadays is more precious and I can't attend as many shows as id like but I still make an effort to go see at least a couple of shows a year whenever possible (attending an outdoor two day metal festival this summer, can't wait!!). Essentially, I wanna feel like I'm at a show when playing my system in my car, brings back the memories and keeps me content with this " indescribable need/some kind of adrenaline or something" I have that seems to be fulfilled when attending metal shows. I'm sure you and many metal heads know exactly the feeling I'm describing... As it stands, I can turn up my system to the highest volume, it gets real loud to the point where you can't even speak with anyone in the cabin as you have to yell for anyone to even notice your talking...at that volume level (max level tuned), the sound is very clear that I want to keep turning it up louder (because it doesn't "feel" loud) so I can feel the instruments bass but the volume is at max! My system lacks the midbass/subbass to feel that thump in my chest and in my seat along with more sub bass to "feel" the bass guitar strings vibrating.... I hope I described as best as I can what I'm looking for! I'm really curious to hear what you have in mind for me...

I am truly a metal head and I am very interested in hearing what you would propose for my setup... Right now my drivers and tweeters are mounted in the stock factory locations. The 6.5" driver is at the bottom of the door mounted in the factory plastic "support tower" that is fixed onto the door. The tweeter is mounted on the door panel about 2-3 inches higher than the 6.5" driver. If I was to remove the factory plastic tower and custom fabricate an mdf mount and trim my factory panel I believe an 8" could fit. Then there might be space left for a 3.5-4" driver (where the tweeter is now) if I decide to go with a 3-way setup in the future. As for the DQXS unit, I forgot to mention that it has a dash control unit that can be purchased which allows tuning from the drivers seat. I also forgot to mention another gripe people had with the DQXS is that it has fixed 24/db crossover slopes. I looked at other DSP's (Alpine, JBL, Pioneer, Zapco to name a few and even saw a powerful DIY "miniDSP") and most if not all had T/A and adjustable crossover slopes. But I'm not sure if I need those as I'm not trying to achieve "100% perfect" sound at the moment, I just want to focus on increasing the volume and keeping the same or better sound quality (with more midbass for that punch of course). On another note, I biamped my Type-X speakers the other night and tried them out for a day, maybe it was me wanting to hear a difference but I think they had a little bit better midbass but not enough to make a very noticeable difference if any (will test this out again after I put on the SDS products). In addition I received my Epicenter yesterday from UPS and quickly installed it last night (just to try it out since I had already bough it anyways), tuned up the system quickly (worked on it for only 10 minutes or so). I know you said that the Epicenter is a complete joke but I will say this, it did increase the overall sound experience in the car. The kick drums and other percussions sound better and it sounds and feels as if my Type-X speakers are putting out more midbass (even though they are not because the Epicenter is installed on my sub). Don't get me wrong, I'm not praising the product by any means but I can hear that it did make a difference. Fortunately for me, it still does not meet my needs on the sound I'm trying to achieve but it did help so I will leave it installed in the meantime while I advance on my project (It will probably end up in my girl's car if she wants it). Next step for me is vibration dampening and reducing outside noise. I contacted Don at SDS for a shipping quote on enough material (CLD, 1/4" CCF, MLV, Butyl rope, Vinyl cement, etc...) to do all four doors and the trunk lid (I will do the floor and the rest of the trunk later when I upgrade my electrical). I'm looking to place the order as soon as I hear back from Don. In the meantime, I will pull my rear deck Type-S 6x9 to replace my girl's stock rear deck speakers in her Nissan Altima. I will also start working on the build of two ported boxes, and plan to test them without the Epicenter hooked up to compare them to my sealed box.

I took some time out of my lunch at work to type this update...sorry for another "long" post ///M5, thank you for your comments, and no offence taken on the """"SQL"""" term, I obviously missed that one in the forum rules. Nonetheless I understand your point that they are two polar opposites. As for the active setup, its something I wanted to do next year when upgrading my front stage but im looking into options for this year (measured my door last night, I *might* be able to fit an 8" woofer in the door with a ~3.5", *maybe* 4" mid and relocate the tweeter near the mirror sail panel for a 3-way setup). I didn't get much time in the past two days to do much research on crossovers but I browsed quickly, found more people praising an AudioControl product, the DQXS for its flexibility and ease of use. Are all AudioControl products junk (in regards to EpiCenter remark) or is the DQXS a reasonable buy? The only gripe that alot of people had with the unit was the fact that it didn't have T/A. I read the owner's manual for the DQXS, seems decent for my needs but then again, as mentionned, I don't think ive got an audiophile ear so maybe it would be just fine. They can be bought for about 500$ on eBay, any better suggestions? Ive also decided to go for SDS, I just want to read up some more on the CCF and MLV (didn't get time yet) then figure out how many CLD tiles i'll need. I'll most likely be placing my order in the coming week or so. Those foam speaker baffles that are meant to protect the speaker when mounted in the door, are those a waste of time or they can they be beneficial? I ask because one Type-X REF reviewer on another forum mentionned that the midbass was lacking and after he properly deadened his doors and installed speaker baffles, the difference was night and day. As for the front stage, I started just that by modifying my setup last night. I disconnected my rear speakers from my PDX-5 and fine tuned the system again with only a front stage. Just for testing purposes, I then enabled the loudness on the mids from the HU and overall I found it started to sound more to my liking but I tend to not like using loudness boosts so I turned it back to off. That's when I came to realize that you are right about the idea that I need to focus more on the front stage then sub bass. Tonight, if time permits I plan to bi-amp my Type-X since Im no longer driving the rears and see what kind of difference I can get from them. Reviews ive read of people who did so with the Type-X REF say it makes a difference. Any suggestions on this? Audibel Customs, thank you for your input. I looked at those Focal components (and the higher K2 line) and everyone seems to rave about them and mention good midbass as well, they are pricey but seem well worth the money. I would love to buy a pair and test them out but for the moment I'll tame myself and see how much these Type-X can perform AFTER my doors are properly deadened and the set bi-amped. Then afterwards i'll be in a better position to determine if I should upgrade them, it's all about learning and gaining experience in this hobby, I love it! I will also attempt building two ported box for my sub and see how they both sound, the Alpine recommended size and the custom design I came up with. Then I'll have a better idea to compare the same sub in the same car in a sealed vs ported enclosure and let my ears tell the difference of what I like. I think this will be invaluable to do as a learning experience and a deciding factor on where to go with the sub stage. Although im still very tempted to buy an Fi Q and test it out, once again I will tame myself and perform due diligence by doing the above box building exercise before buying more equipment. stefanhinote, that's good to hear!!! So it would seem that I was heading in the wrong direction by focusing on my sub stage and you guys are driving me towards the right direction now. Thank you all! Notorious from FWI, i'm in good hands indeed! All the help ive been getting thus far from EVERYONE is invaluable and VERY MUCH appreciated! I will try to maximize my current equipment and see how everything sounds after the improvements mentionned above. Then I'll be in a better position to gauge what I need. As for bridging my amp, I didn't think of that because the Type-X advertise 75W RMS (although many reviewers claimed they could handle alot more...) and my amp is 4 x 75W so I thought of bi-amping them since bridging them would up that to 2 x 150W (supposed to be 4 ohm stable in bridged mode but I can't see that in the manual or docs on Alpine site). I'll try bi-amping first... cobra93, thank you, I will do as you mentionned, build both ported boxes and compare them to see how they both sound vs my current sealed box. Thanks again everyone for your input! Stay tuned... P.S.: Mods, should this thread be located in the "Build Logs" section, I'm not sure...If it is more appropriate in the "Build Logs" section, please feel free to move it there, thanks!

Thanks mlstrass and Alton for your advice, much appreciated!! I have been reading since last night on the understanding of speaker response curves and box designs and its quite enlightening! I am now leaning heavily towards a ported box design after educating myself on the above. I remember reading through SDS earlier in the week and I remember it was good infromation, but I had read only on the CLD tiles. I will go read some more on the CCF and MLV, thanks! Ok, well I think I should install the battery in the rear then for my purpose (plus if it helps like you said then even better). I wanted to go mainly with an isolator because of the fact that I want to be able to listen to my system with the ignition off for periods of time and not worry about a dead starting battery. There's a PAC isolator bundle that come with the PAC BG12 battery monitor which claims to monitor both battery voltages and never leave you with a dead starting battery when listening to the system with ignition off. Anyone ever heard anything good/bad about this BG12 monitor? So a pair of 12's or a single 15, got it. Since I don't want to upgrade to an HO alt just yet it would seem more logical to stick with one Fi Q 15 and drive it with its rated RMS rather than 2 x Fi Q 12's at half power. Am I correct on that statement? As for the amps, although my eyes are on the alpines, Im still very open to changing my mind providing they fit in my budget, space as you mentionned etc.. so this will be decided once I nail down my sub choice. I'll keep checking out my options in the meantime. Since I plan on deadening the doors and trunk before buying anything else, then i'll get a better idea of my front stage midbass and as you mentionned, probably won't even need to bother with rear speakers. If that's the case, then my amp options will open up some more as I won't need a pre-out on the amp. Alton, in regards to your last statement, I started playing around with WinISD and modeling my Type-R in my current sealed box vs the Alpine recommended ported box and a custom designed ported box tuned lower. I would like to build a ported box for my current Type-R and see how much better it can perform. As you suggested, this is just good for my own knowledge and experience before I spend more money on new amps/drivers. From what I can see, the sealed box I have now seems to be the least efficient, the Alpine recommended design is more efficient but peaks in the lower frequencies and the custom design I came up with seems to be more efficient with a nearly flat response curve. Here is what I came up with, please let me know If I did something wrong in my calculations, I was trying to put my newly aquired knowledge about speaker response curves and box design to work to reinforce my thoughts and ensure I understood the material correctly. WinISD graph for the three combinations is below. Current 1 cuft sealed box (yellow line) Driver : Alpine SWR-1223D Vas : 43.0 Qts : 0.47 Fs : 28.00 SPL : 85.00 -- Number of drivers : 1 Box type : Closed Box size : 1.000 ft^3 Relative Freq Gain SPL [Hz] [dB] [dB] 30.00 -7.32 77.68 35.00 -5.16 79.84 40.00 -3.57 81.43 45.00 -2.44 82.56 50.00 -1.65 83.35 55.00 -1.11 83.89 60.00 -0.75 84.25 65.00 -0.50 84.50 70.00 -0.33 84.67 75.00 -0.21 84.79 80.00 -0.13 84.87 Alpine recommended 1.9 cuft ported box tuned at 33Hz (green line) Driver : Alpine SWR-1223D Vas : 43.0 Qts : 0.47 Fs : 28.00 SPL : 85.00 -- Number of drivers : 1 Box type : Vented Box size : 1.900 ft^3 Tuning frequency : 33.00 Hz Vent : 1 vent(s) 14.30 in length for each 12.00 x 1.25 in rectangle Relative Freq Gain SPL [Hz] [dB] [dB] 30.00 -0.90 84.10 35.00 2.62 87.62 40.00 3.46 88.46 45.00 3.15 88.15 50.00 2.64 87.64 55.00 2.20 87.20 60.00 1.84 86.84 65.00 1.56 86.56 70.00 1.33 86.33 75.00 1.16 86.16 80.00 1.01 86.01 Custom design I came up with for 2 cuft ported box tuned at 27Hz (blue line) Driver : Alpine SWR-1223D Vas : 43.0 Qts : 0.47 Fs : 28.00 SPL : 85.00 -- Number of drivers : 1 Box type : Vented Box size : 2.000 ft^3 Tuning frequency : 27.00 Hz Vent : 1 vent(s) 28.03 in length for each 15.00 x 1.25 in rectangle Relative Freq Gain SPL [Hz] [dB] [dB] 30.00 0.22 85.22 35.00 0.92 85.92 40.00 0.99 85.99 45.00 0.92 85.92 50.00 0.81 85.81 55.00 0.72 85.72 60.00 0.63 85.63 65.00 0.56 85.56 70.00 0.49 85.49 75.00 0.44 85.44 80.00 0.39 85.39