cubdenno

M5, you and your logic are a pain!! Of course you are right though. I was hoping since a lot of the hlcd kits that you could get in the past had a car mid (6 1/2 or 8) and were not pro audio efficiency it would be a fairly easy substitution to do a decent woofer/woofers that could play fairly well in the 80-1000 range. I am seeing now that based on your experience it will not be that easy. Especially basing this on power available and my son's beer budget. AND it is becoming way more apparent that a processor is greatly needed to help match the hlcd's into the system.

You have two problems in your sub horn range:1) Not enough cone area, ie midbass range will suffer 2) Not enough power. IMO, the Daytons don't help with either. They aren't particularly good midbasses and not unlike the horns if you want them to play into the midrange you are going to need some serious eq. I was going to do a 2 way with a set and after playing with them sold them off for those exact reasons. Add to that the lack of an enclosure to beef them up and you aren't helping yourself. In that aspect a pro audio driver in a poor mounting scenario may actually be of benefit. No matter what you are going to have compromises. I'd pick what I think those should be first. Then start driver shopping. What I compromised with my solution was money. You may choose differently. Totally agree on the cone area observation. Was talking to an aquaintance based on a forum post regarding a 10" peerless driver. Magnet is reversed in mounting. Works well in a .33cubic foot box and performs very well for midbass duties. Price is right as well. Problem is, that requires a bit more power and would in most likely circumstances, a midrange to fill in between the HLCD's and the dedicated midbass drivers. The Daytons in my usage and tastes are not that bad. I used them in a two way when i wanted rear fill in my set up. I crossed them @1.1k and my tweeters at 2k high pass was 24db/oct and the woofer lowpass was 12 db/oct. Was happy with that set up stayed clear and kept up as well as a single 8" on a couple of hundred watts could be expected. They handled power very well. In fact seemed to sound better with more power. And let's face it, I don't do critical listening on my set up. and my son won't either. Sadly though you are exactly right with not being ale to keep up with the subs. With his budget and vehicle tied with his musical tastes and sub/power set up, I am not sure it CAN be done. We will just have to try to get as close as possible. Again, thanks all for the input/observations. Keep em coming. I will be talking with the boy tonight for sure. We are supposed to be looking at how to most compactly mount the amplifiers while still giving access to adjust the settings.

LOL! I bet snare drums sound as close to real as can be!! Give a look at putting acoustic foam in the throat. Go ahead and laugh but get your hands on it and give it a listen When i want to shock and awe a person who is not a teenager I play Toto's Hold the line off their great hits CD. Track one. When the snare hits it makes them flinch every time at high volume. That is what the boy is looking for. And since I preach lotsa midbass for your subs to sound good, he is looking for that as well. Frankly you guys are telling me what I surmised already. He is going to have to run active to do this right! Gee thanks a lot!!

Thing is, it will be hard to surpass the 115 bucks I spent on the JBL 4 channel. Brand new/not refurb. For output going down to 80-100 hertz that I know will work, I would just get Dayton RS225's. Cross at 80 hertz and call it a day. This option means that I have to turn the horns WAY down. The Daytons play to a 1000 with no issues and if you can take some cone break up 1.5. Cost is good as well. ~60 bucks with 6mm of linear stroke 1 way if memory serves. 8 ohm DCR is about perfect for the power rating The B&C 8 that rocks the ferrite based magnet... PS something I believe is right at 100 per driver and have heard this used in a vette door. 94 ish sensitivity even at 100 hertz based on frequency response graph whould make it easier to mate to the horn. I talked to my son at lunch and further discussed the plan going forward. And while he likes the idea of running passive up front and by 9's in the back as he has the speakers except for the front woofers, he understands my points. He got to audition a friends system and had a good laugh. 2 fifteens, band pass enclosure 2kw on subs and head unit powering the factory speakers. Absolutely ridiculous. So with those types of experiences, he does not want that. Nor does he want to run bullet tweeters. He wants something that is listenable but that can keep up. So I am pushing for active. Now the

Corporate internet is not being cooperative. As for the passive on the horns, I understand your reaction but they will probably have to do unless I convince him to run active. That in itself will be up to his budget. The nice thing is, he can use them untill he gets the cash to run active if he first goes the passive route. Besides... The label on the passive says it has signal shaping!!! Signal shaping man! obviously that correctly implies perfect acoustical performance in any install. Even if we install it in a trunk. Signal shaping is the most bestest!! Hell he may actually enter an SQ contest subs and horn with signal shaping! Hopefully you see the humor in what I just posted.

Had a big post typed up and then got a web error and have to now retype.... I like the idea of the ported Pro audio driver. Problem is, the complexity of glassing an enclosure to the door is beyond my skill set currently and aesthetically impossible. The space limitations external to the door would make me have to short the drivers air space. Fitting a baffle that seals to the door and uses it's airspace albeit leaky sealed is about the only way we can do this. The baffle that could house the 3 Aura drivers could be offset out enough to handle the drivers with minimum door modification to the sheet metal. I would love to get the benefits of porting a driver in the door. Reduced excursion, better midbass output etc... But I can't do it. Plain and simple. I tried the horns hooked up in my car. did a 1200 hertz crossover @ 24db/oct listening with the foam and without, with the foam definitely helped and sounded better. The loss in output should help in level matching.

Absolutely agree with the performance of the Proaudio driver vs. the aura option or really any 6" option that is not some super beefy 6" quasi sub which brings all sorts of issues over 400 hertz generally. Based on the power (less than 150 watts per channel) pretty sure the Aura's would be fine. Budget? that is a hilarious question!! He is a 20 year old who works a 17 an hour job and goes to school and he lives on his own. I have a crap ton of stuff I donate to his cause, but I make him pick up the lions share. After the alternator gets bought (I thought it was already), The best guess would be 500 or so. As for procs, I run the H701 and love it. I would probably try to get him to run a MiniDSP just for the set it and forget it capability. Then he cant screw with it.

I believe the passive is 1200-1500 hertz. I would have to research it based on part number and see if there is any google retrievable info Well when done right, the Pro audio set up in my opinion is impossible to beat with the dynamics available, the lack of compression and distortion. Obviously like you mentioned, they come with their own set of issues in the planning and install. Regular drivers are generally fine if your reference listening level is 85-95 db (which is loud). The problem is, when you go louder, your average speaker (even high end) tend to fall apart acoustically and mechanically if pushed long. Trying to keep up with kilowatts on subs is hard to do and sound good. It's why I was looking at this in a couple of different ways. Multi driver and pro audio.

I despise "Which brand/driver" type threads but unfortunately, in helping my son, I am hitting just that. 2004 Pontiac Grand Am. Waiting on HO alternator. 3 Die Hard Platinum batteries. 2 runs of 1/0 positive 1 run 2/0 as a negative connected to frame in 3 spots System layout: 2 ea. JBL GTO14001 amplifiers each driving a DD9012 sub in a ported enclosure. Each sub in it's own chamber each sub wired to achieve a 4 ohms DCR at the amp. JBL GTO1004 4 channel amp 100X4 Image dynamics wave guides acoustic open cell foam inserted in the throat to cut down on some of the screechiness. Really helped! Crossfire compression drivers and the crossfire passive/frequency shaping crossover There is not a lot of space in the door card. I believe a 6" can fit. We are willing to modify the card and install a bigger driver. Now I am looking at this a couple of ways. Passive: 3 aura each door 6" 8 ohm drivers on clearance from PE. Multiple motors to reduce power compression and increase efficiency. They are great sounding drivers and Cheap.order 12 of themfor just over a hundred bucks and have full set of spares. 2 lower end 8-10" PA drivers. 1 per door. Have seen great results with the PYLE (GASP!I know! but they performed well in the door of a Tahoe keeping up with 4 12" subs on 3kw) PA drivers. 2 high end B&C drivers. 1 per door Now for my money, I would go this route as both the 8 and 10 are proven designs, low distortion nice Xmax for a PA driver and great efficiency to help keep up with the HLCD. a set of 6X9's in the rear parcel tray to help augment the midbass for a better sub to mid transition. using the GTO1`004 bandpass settings on the rear channels of the amp or an off board processor. Active: Basically the same driver choices except for the 6X9's In his Buick (previous car), he was metering upper 140's which for his music tastes and goals was very nice. But unfortunately, he was running small car branded drivers. Midbass/sub transition was a joke. Subs just flat out overwhelmed everything and tended to sound muddy due to no midbass at any volume past 1/3. So enter the new to him car. he is actually listening to me as my car with low 140's capabilities sounds great all the way up except for break up at the highest volume but still for what I am rocking not terrible. I am not concerned about beaming so running a larger driver with it's increased efficiency is more appealing. I am concerned about making sure the woofer would e OK in a car door as far as airspace. Sure we are looking at leaky sealed with crossover points being ~80-125 active (12/oct) to whatever the passive does to running full active on the set up and having 24 db/slopes and EQ available. I am just afraid the active for his goals are overkill and the cheaper though more speakers passive may suit his listening tastes and goals for a better bang to the buck approach. And remember, we can compensate some midbass by upping the crossover/fooling with the slopes of the subs. Not worried about bass up front entirely especially at high volume. So any advice/experience on this would be welcome. Regards.

What vids are you looking for. It's a pro audio mid. It's not like it's going to flex a car. They just scream and do it cleanly.

I run a Sundown SAZ1500 on the stock electrical with a Sears Diehard Platinum in my Toyota Solara. I recommend the Sears Diehard Platinum. It's a rebadged Oddysey, can be picked up at any Sears, has a 4 year warranty, costs ~200 bucks. So no having to pay shipping when you buy it, easy to get replaced if you kill it and again no shipping, and it is a fantastic battery!! Good luck on your system.

What enclosure are these looking to be in for best performance? Will they do well in a door (leaky sealed)? OR should I plan on putting them in an either small sealed or small ported (tuned 70-80 hertz to control excursion) enclosure? Comparible sound to say a B&C 8NDL51?

Skip all other posts and read this one Im not trying to sound like a smart ass here, (IM REALLY NOT! I KNOW NOTHING COMPARED TO Y'ALL AND YOUR SUGGESTIONS AND COMMENTS ARE VERY HELPFUL TO ME) but of coarse its based on amp power and driver config, ive never argued that infact I dont think even ibanter or whomever has either. Hes saying box size needs to be part of the equation. And to a certain degree hes right, cause your box needs to be a certain size to maintain the specifics of the port, and driver that your looking to use. So im taking everything into consideration, and not just one post. Like Ive said in others, I dont come here for one peice of advise, I want to know what everyone thinks, what everyone recommends, and maybe even suggestions, those are nice. When its all said and done some of the specific comments might not have anything to back them up, but to some degree the principles they speak of should be noted. Im not defending or crossing anyone here, and Im grateful for info from everyone here Unless you just post a link to someones post saying this is the only one to read - cause its not how I choose to do my research. All the opinions here matter, thats how it helps me come to my conclusions, and without conflicting ideas the point of asking is gone. AND im changing the design to a single port between 50-55 inches of port area. Id like to go up to 60 but if I do it just throws off the space i need with the added length required. asb2106, Like you, I started researching port area. I started a while back. ~1 year ago. I can actually say Duran on here got me to first understand the relationship between the total displacement of the woofer being the primry spec used to determine port area. Followed by power applied. That is where modeling the enclosure comes in. You can use that equation from the link provided or rather the "calculator". my determination was that area is where it needs to be for maximum power and under 10m/s port velocity. John from Acoustic Elegance answered my question by telling me to model my woofer/enclosure under the "max" power I am going to use. try to keep the port velocity as close to 20m/s or under if possible. You start to get distortion at 10 m/s. at 30m/s you have distortion levels ridiculously high,port turbulence, port compression and higher air lock. Box volume is relevant when once you determine port area via modeling port compression/port velocity ,you apply that area and the box volume to get the port length for your desired port tuning frequency. That's it as far as box volume vs port area is involved. One of the main things I have learned about proper port sizing is that the people who complain about ported boxes sounding crappy, if you remove the incorrect tuning, what they dislike is the sound of an undersized port. It's pure distortion. And it does sound like crap. Make it the proper size and it's pure bliss. no matter the music you listen to.

1 ohm dcr for a daily driver in a WRX Sedan?

Yes. I use WinISD initially to model enclosures first. When I determine that the response and space are something that I can live with, I simply figure the volume of the enclosure and add in the volume of the port. I use another program I got from a link on this site. Unfortunately it's on my home PC. I can send it to you later. It does the volume displacement calculations for you. plus lets you know about potential resonances. I use both that and WinISD and Unibox. It's a lot of trial and error, but no less than using something like AKABAK with way less of a learning curve.