jesh4622

Hi guys, I am putting together a SQ system for the wife. She just got a new truck, which is a 2005 Nissan Frontier with a crew-cab. I plan on purchasing a head unit almost entirely for bluetooth capabilities. I have narrowed it down to the Kenwood KDC-X501 (120 USD) for its ability to connect to 2 Bluetooth devices at once and support of aptX. This will allow minimal audio fidelity loss when paired with an aptX tablet. (tablet not yet purchased) The tablet would be used as a source for Spotify premium and navigation through Google Maps. Signal from the receiver would then go to a DSP. I'm undecided on the miniDSP 6x8 (300 USD) or the new Rockford DSR1. (230 USD)(The DSR1 one allows changing DSP settings through an android tablet) The DSP will output to two Soundstream class D amps - one 4 channel, which I I'll bridge to the woofers at 170w RMS each and the other a 5 channel. Because of space constraints in this vehicle, I plan to use an adapter in the front doors to fit a ~6.5" mid-bass driver. The stock tweeter location will be tested, and if it measures OK, used. I will then build a custom enclosure to fit the mid range driver. The doors will be prepped with SDS CLD tiles, SS Damplifier Pro and melamine foam on the inside. The drivers will be mounted on neoprene gaskets, sealed with silicone putty and bolted down. The baffle diffraction will be minimized with duct seal. Right now I'm thinking: mid-bass - Dayton RS180-4 (49.60) mid-range - Dayton RS100P-4 (33.20 USD) tweeter - SEAS Prestige 27TFFNC/G (40 USD) total: 123 USD (x2) I plan on crossing the tweeters over pretty high. I have seen others online say this tweeter sounds the BEST for frequencies over 4k. The RS100 should have no problem playing into that range. I also know dome tweeters have a better chance to sound good when reflected off a windshield like in the stock location. If I can't get a nice, detailed, wide soundstage, I will just mount the tweeters next to the mid-range drivers in the enclosure. I do plan on running a sub-woofer. The wife loves her interior room, so I am limited to a custom sub enclosure under the rear seat. This ranges from .45-.75ft^3, depending on the thickness of MDF. I am thinking of a single 10" sub. I've found two subs that will work, although I'm open to suggestions here, as well. Unfortunately, the single sub enclosures are a lot more, but not enough more to justify buying 2 subs. Dayton LS10-44 (120 USD) Infinity Reference REF1000S (85) custom enclosure (140) I would like to keep the total cost of drivers the same as the ones I have tentatively chosen, or lower. I would also like to keep the mid-bass driver as a non-paper cone. This is a 4x4 and will see a lot of time offroad, including through high water. Suggest me some drivers please! Especially you, ///M5. I signed up here because of other posts I've seen you make. Also, if you know of a head unit that supports Android Auto and has good-to-great network capabilities and pre-outs, that would allow me to skip the DSP. That could be an option. DVD/CD, XM, etc would be unnecessary as only Spotify would be used. HD Radio could be a plus.

@///M5 I have been reading more of these forums and watching what you tell other members. I've noticed that you usually ask for what other drivers people have listened to. Unfortunately, I don't have much experience with hearing drivers in a car. Most of the different ones I've heard I've been in home theater, with passive crossovers. What I can tell you is that in the two-way build in my old vehicle, I used the Synergy audio 6.5 s sold here on SSA. I didn't have much experience with tuning at that point, and I posted up a 5-star review before I had figured out that these drivers just would not do what I was looking for. No matter what crossover slope or frequency I chose, they were never able to play any complicated instrumentation. So for jazz and classical, they were just unusable. The same goes for any form of rock. Frequencies after 2000hz sounded very thin and artificial. It probably didn't help matters that I had a radiating ring tweeter up on the dash reflecting against the windshield. (peerless xt25) Since then, I would like to think I have become a little wiser. I don't think PA drivers are going to give me the sound that I want from my vehicle. The closest thing that I have heard to perfect sound is a full-range near-field monitor setup that I made for my wife's PC. Everything comes out of one 3-inch driver by Fostex. There are no crossovers of any type. I spent a lot of time designing the enclosure, and it's as dead as they come. The sound, at least at low volume, is a religious experience. The soundstage is at least double the distance between the two speakers and is incredibly detailed, without being too revealing. Online sources of music are still definitely enjoyable. The main thing that I love about the speakers is how natural they sound, especially when playing conventional instruments. That natural sound is what I'm after with the mid-range in this setup we have been discussing. I would like to make the crossover frequencies as smooth and natural of a transition as possible. I know that it's unlikely that it will ever sound as good as my wife's monitors, but I would like to get as close as possible. The main thing I didn't like about running a full-range speaker is the obvious. The volume that you can get out of such a system is very limited, as are the frequencies below 125hz or so. If you look at the FR for this driver, you'll see that it measures almost ruler straight. The upper frequencies are not sibilant at all. Perfect. My wife appreciates their sound as much as I do. As for bass, the most high quality bass I've been exposed to was in my old two-way setup. I ran a scanspeak discovery 10 inch sub, which I will be re-using in my current car. (not my wife's Frontier) It was put into a .75 cubic foot sealed enclosure. I made sure that it was well-sealed using silicone caulk. I had it crossed over at 24db slope on the 80prs at 57hz. I had no issues with the sound of that driver at all. I suppose outout could be higher. I did do some research on upgrading at some point. I would probably go with a gcon or xcon from SSA. But that's low on the list. It makes more than enough bass for sane levels of music enjoyment. Hopefully this gives hopefully this gives you a better idea of what I'm after.

@///M5 Qtc is a little high but that will just improve the effeciency of the driver. It only results in a small slope. At my crossover frequency of 300hz, there is less than a 1.5db gain. I think this is workable. Converting to imperial units, 0.7L works out to a cube of 3.5" per side. Considering the front face of the enclosure will be 4" or more, I think this is completely workable. If I can make the enclosure larger without obstructing dashboard view or causing too much mass to hang off of the A pillar, I will. I'll get a little more damping on the cone for any gains in volume that I make. Unfortunately a Qtc of .57 is just a monstrous box that would never work. (3.5L) However, a smaller enclosure seems completely doable. @j-roadtatts That's awesome news! Definitely let me know what you think of them. There is not nearly enough information about them online. EDIT I just actually calculated how large the enclosure will be to accommodate the driver. This seems reasonable. It's much flatter. To arrive at this volume I assumed a 5" front face circular in shape and an overall depth of 4.5". In reality, the enclosure will not be a perfect cylinder and will extend farther on the side close to the dash, and outwards from the driver as it gets closer to the A pillar. I think this is a reasonable assumption for what will work within my wife's vehicle.

I talked to the wife and tried to explain what I knew about the drivers. She wants to go ahead with the Peerless NE123W for the mids. So at this point we have decided on the following: subwoofer: ??? midbass: Exodus Anarchy midrange: Peerless NE123W tweeter: ??? head unit: Kenwood Excelion X501 (chosen for aptX bluetooth, multiple simultaneous bluetooth connection, good preamp and DAC sections) DSP: Rockford DSR1 (chosen for Android tunability - there will always be a tablet in the car, and we don't have a laptop) tablet: Samsung Tab Pro 10.1 (chosen for large, bright screen and aptX) enclosure: A pillar as pictured by @j-roadtatts earlier in this thread - although I can definitely make them more on-axis or larger volume. According to reviews, the NE123W is natural sounding and transparent with a touch of warmth. I'd like to tweeter to match this sound signature to make the experience more cohesive. @///M5 I know you half-recommended the Dayton ND20 tweeter. It seems like a good pairing, but I'm a little concerned about power handling. I have seen a lot of complaints on break up and power handling at higher SPLs and also people online blow out ND16s one after another. There is a 5w increase in power handling stepping up to the ND20. Would it be safer to step up further to the 1" version? I'm really leaning towards the ND25 right now. I also found one person who used the NE123W in a 2 way speaker with a sub and chose this tweeter. (some more details here) I would feel a little safer with a more expensive tweeter just because I know that variance will be lower between the left and right channels. I have seen people compare the measurements on the Dayton ND20 and they are acceptable, but could be a lot better. Hmm. I could also get the SSA evil tweets. On the subs, I mentioned earlier two different options: the Dayton LS10-44 and the Infinity Reference REF1000S. The Dayton I picked myself because it's 10", not tons of money, and fits into the 4.375" mounting depth of the thicker custom box. The Infinity I found through a bit of research through searching for budget SQ options. There aren't many subs recommended that are that low of a profile. I'm game for a more expensive subwoofer, but I would like there to be a marked increase in sound quality. Do you guys have any other suggestions?

I have you to thank for the 4" mids but I also have you to thank for the new enclosure plans. She saw the pictures of those custom pillars and must have them now, haha. I can't promise when, but when it's done, I plan on distributing the plans for free. That should be useful to a lot of frontier/xterra owners. All you'll need is access to a 3d printer.

@j-roadtatts @///M5 Thank you both for all of the time you have put into replying to me. I do appreciate it. That being said, I have a two way active system in my vehicle currently and want to try a 3 way. I really want to see what a good midrange driver can do with the vocal range when everything is tuned properly. I also want to play with a DSP. I currently only have experience playing with my 80prs and DSP software in the Windows environment. I've read tons of topics on using REW and understand the concepts behind filter creation etc. I think you're beginning to notice that reading is kind of a problem for me. Your comment on Jim Holtz made me laugh out loud. So yeah I'm not too concerned about HF breakup. For sure I will have a small tweeter with whatever midrange driver I decide to go with. From what I've read, that particular W4 is remarkable in the way that it suffers from no breakup until after 11khz. Of course, that's from damping on the cone, which also means less detail and results in their smooth response. I'm OK with that since my wife will not be playing FLAC files off a Zen player or have vinyl and a turn table. This is all mid-fi, as far as snobbery is concerned, haha. I also completely understand about comparing the vastly different listening environments. There's pretty limited material online about raw drivers in car audio, though. I did find a subjective review on DIYMA where they rated the Vifa as "tier 3",whatever that means. But the only drivers rated higher were expensive boutique drivers, Alpine scan speaks, and real scan speaks. So yeah I'll take whatever little tidbits I can find on interesting drivers, haha. I'll feel better if I feel that my decision making process wasn't completely random. As for 4" drivers - I know in home theater you only need the large enclosure to extend low end rolloff. You model as a woofer but shoot for a Q of .57 or even a little lower. I'm not worried about extending response. I just want to avoid creating a hump in the FR with too small of an enclosure. And in the car most of what matters is just combating reflections, bad seating position, etc. I'll have the DSP for that. I haven't chosen a driver yet, so I haven't given more than a cursory glance at most of the T/S parameters for these. Oh also on the sale driver - I did notice it's a one-off bastard, but the FR looks good for 60-100hz and the impedance curve supports that by showing it doesn't rise till quite low for a 6.5 driver. Combine that with known good build quality from seas and a somewhat exotic cone material, and I figured it was definitely worth $40. The main thing I am concerned about with the anarchy is people saying that they are super clean with near 0 distortion. I'm thinking they may be a little clinical for my wife. She is no hi-fi snob and I'm sure would enjoy something with more presence. But I am almost certain at this point that I won't find that for under $150/driver. So I think my plan is to shoe-horn the anarchy in, even if it fights me tooth and nail.

@j-roadtattsOh wow nice find. I didn't even know Madisound had specials. That is super tempting! The reed material seems like it wouldn't do too well in a car door. I'm still considering it anyway. Thank you for the pictures of the 4" cutout. I showed those to the wife and she said up to that size is fine, after seeing it on the dash. I just bought the head unit and tablet so the DSP is required at this point. If I have a DSP may as well do a 3 way. According to Zaph, the 88EX could use a tweeter: Another midrange driver that has caught my attention, (now that I can go 4"), is the Tangband W4-1337SD. It has class-leading smoothness according to Zaph and great reviews. Apparently it's gaining popularity in high-end home theater boutique speakers. There's also the replacement for the W4 in the Statements II - the Tymphany NE123W. Jim Holtz, the designer of that speaker, says he prefers the NE123 to SS Revelators - for music.

I'm also considering the Scanspeak 10F/8414G10 or Tymphany TC9. I've found a couple people say that when paired with a tweeter, the Peerless 830986 has more impact than the 88EX. The 88EX is only better if you run it all the way up to 20khz.

Hmm yeah I see that the 6x9 Tangband would actually be pretty good for this according to the FR. Would you really run these instead of anarchy or SLS woofers? They need 103mm (4.05") of clearance. I don't think that's possible for me. Or is it? Their xmax is only 7mm. Clearance would be super tight for the anarchy. 3 7/8" (3.875") to the glass in the front, and the depth of the anarchy is 94mm, which is 3.70 inches. I had already planned on adding a gasket, which would bring it out a little, but it's so close. I'm worried with the xmax and gasket under it I'll have it slapping against the speaker grill. I have roughly 1" of clearance between the top of the adapter and the speaker grill. I think the general consensus is the anarchy is better than the SLS? Sealed door pods are too much work. That's too bad about the ECM.

For on the dash I would match the enclosure volume to the driver. I can build it to match the driver. I have a bit of experience building enclosures. The same thing with positioning. The angle is flexible as I'll design it to be on/off axis - the mounting will be custom. I can also construct the enclosure to angle the tweeter and wideband driver separately. So as long as the size of the wideband enclosure is not too big, it's not an issue. I think 3.5" and less would be best. Lately I have my eye on this. It's small so positioning would be very flexible. According to user measurements, it easily plays down to 300hz and can go as high as I need it to. That gives me a lot of flexibility in finding the perfect XO point with the DSP. There are also reviews with direct comparisons (subjective) against the 3" bamboo Tangband, with the Fostex coming out on top. I forgot I was considering drivers under the seat, to be honest. Would that be ok as a lone midbass driver? Ignoring the door completely? I have seen people who use the 'cone of confusion' concept to supplement in-door midbass, but not alone. I was also thinking of 4x midbass drivers by using the back doors as well, if I do need more output in that region.

I know this stuff already, guys. That's the point of doing a 3 way. You get most/all of your vocal spectrum on one driver. So were you asking about the volume of the door? Because that's effectively infinite baffle no matter how well I treat it. And I'm not going to build an enclosure inside of it. https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/peerless-woofers-6-7/peerless-830946-sls-6.5-woofer-4-ohm/ Again, this system is not going to be made to "slam" or for max SPL so I see little reason to discontinue plans for a 3 way front stage just because I want to use 6.5 inch drivers. There are these, there are the RS180s and there are TM65 MKIIs. I'm sure there are other drivers as well. Logically, if a 2 way can faithfully reproduce music to your satisfaction in 6.5 inch form factor, then there's no reason a 3 way can't.

http://linkwitzlab.com/thor-intro.htm Theory and stuff is linked after the little blurb. It's also hard to argue with the guy.

Volume limit on the the enclosure: I suppose as long as it doesn't obstruct view it's OK. It is still a girl's car, though, so maybe something like this. This discussion is very interesting to me because I have a 2 way front stage in my car and have always heard that the tweeter, by far, is the more important driver. It makes sense it would be different in a 3 way, though. @j-roadtatts Thank you for sharing - that's some lovely craftsmanship.

Thanks for the replies! I don't need hard drive space since my wife will be mostly streaming. I suppose some wouldn't hurt for offline maps and song storage. Does the DDX9903S do 3 way active + sub? It's so hard to find specifics on the network mode for head units. Also, I think I was unclear on the mounting locations for drivers? The midbass I want in the doors. I'm not opposed to underseat, but that would mean more enclosure work. No kick panels. My wife would destroy them. That means I'm limited to 6.5", 7" and 6x9" drivers. No way would she approve of cutting metal for 8" drivers. For the midrange, I plan on creating a custom enclosure and mounting it on the dash. For the tweeter, I will try the stock location, and if I can't get the measurements I want, I'll make it part of the enclosure that holds the midrange. I did read that you're not in love with this particular tweeter, but with a 3 way active front setup, there's not a need to run it low where it has trouble. What do you suggest for the same price range? I am trying to do this on a budget - that's why I've put dollar values down for everything.