The future of SPL

[JazzScreamer 1]

It was around 1990 when I helped install two 15"inch subs (i believe they were Pyramid) in a Chevy Cavalier, and installing a 15" MTX in a Mustang hatch back. Both systems were running around 300-400 watts or so and were extremely loud for the time. As car audio has become more popular, I've seen the trend go to the bigger and loudest SPL system you can get (Is there really a 2-way system that can keep up with a 2000-4000 watts sub system and sound good, and not have to have 8 mids and 12 tweets?). The thought of thousands of watts in a system were unheard of. As Im getting older, the trend still keeps expanding. Now you have people installing a sub stage with thousands if not tens of thousands of watts with multiple subs and what not. My question is.....when will this peak or end. We have people hitting 160db in a vehicle and above now. Yes, this is a great accomplishment, but 5 years from now will people be going for 200db or so. What is the point of all of this? Is it to shake the chit out of your neighbor or actually to listen to music. I do understand that there are comps that are geared toward SPL and nothing else, but when will this stop or where will the trend go? Obviously this can not keep going on or can it. Will there be a day that a car hits 300db?

I just wanted to post this to give a feeler as the to future of car audio. The reason I say "car audio" in general is because if you look at ANY forum, the majority of the threads are geared toward the Sub level. Example...

What would be louder...how many subs...best box for the most DB..., Etc........ I personally can't stand it, but I'm interested in the trend.

Can we have some comments about what the future might hold? I think it would be interesting. I think it would be best if we have some older people chime in on the "good old days" and go from there and also some manufactures.

Edited May 11, 2008 by JazzScreamer

[Godsmack 360]

180 db + is when atoms begin to seperate IIRC.

As for the SPL market per se, I think it will continue to grow and grow. Kids are born every day, and as such audio can continue to flourish.

As people age though most (not all) begin to want more SQ and less vibration and noise. Therefore the SQ market will be here to stay too.

J

[bose301s 1]

180 db + is when atoms begin to seperate IIRC.

As for the SPL market per se, I think it will continue to grow and grow. Kids are born every day, and as such audio can continue to flourish.

As people age though most (not all) begin to want more SQ and less vibration and noise. Therefore the SQ market will be here to stay too.

J

Haha, air can sustain around 193dB IIRC, water can go much higher and even denser materials can get louder than that, no way in hell does it split atoms, have you ever seen what is necessary for that? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_accelerator

[johnecon2001 82]

I believe air begins to compress at 180+. Which is why it's so hard to get up to that point.

[JimJ 11]

because if you look at ANY forum, the majority of the threads are geared toward the Sub level. Example...

What would be louder...how many subs...best box for the most DB..., Etc........ I personally can't stand it, but I'm interested in the trend.

We try to buck that trend here.

Emphasis on try.

I agree with the premise of your post, though, it's still incomprehensible to me why there are people out there that hate their hearing so much, but hey, as long as I don't have to listen to that "music" I'm fine with it. And remember, a lot of them come over to our side eventually

[JazzScreamer 1]

True that.

[KU40 173]

I believe air begins to compress at 180+. Which is why it's so hard to get up to that point.

but you're not compressing air at 100 db when your sub moves out?

Like as has been said, things can't get much louder. and can't really get much bigger, either, since you're obviously limited by the amount of space within the vehicle. people already take up the whole trunk, take out back seats, build walls, etc. There's not really any more space to fill up. I think it's reaching the limit.

[rugdnit 1]

lets keep the thread on point and drop the " split atoms " tangent. i have been wondering this for some time.. at what point do people get back to what it is all about? that said with all the variation in recording quality it's tough. kinda like golf... it can never be perfected. you may finally get your sound perfect with you favorite band, but then all other recordings may not sound near as good. recording quality is something that is driving me nuts as i go through my old back catalogue of music.... songs i used to really enjoy, but because the recording is not very good your system really brings it to light and no longer enjoy listening to those songs anymore.

[mrray13 30]

the fact is, IMO, lol, that sq is so subjective and spl is definitive, that spl is here to stay and will continue to flourish. and let's not forget, it's way easier to get loud, then to sound really good. and that's the american way. and with some many new products, the internet and god knows how many tutorials, it's far less expensive to get loud as well. a couple runs of wire, a couple of batteries, an alternator, a big box, a huge amp and massive subs....lol.

and with today's music seemingly concentrating on the lows, why build for anything else? besides, it's way too cool to piss everyone off with the knock then it is to impress them with the clarity, right? ask LB, lol....

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[JimJ 11]

and let's not forget, it's way easier to get loud, then to sound really good.

That's a total myth

Getting to the pinnacle of either requires a lot of time, a lot of testing, and knowledge of the black arts that go into it. And the Camry shows that you can come across something that does pretty well for SQ, just by playing around with things Likewise, there are people that have gotten some pretty good results in the SPL lanes just by trying something right off the bat.

with all the variation in recording quality it's tough. kinda like golf... it can never be perfected. you may finally get your sound perfect with you favorite band, but then all other recordings may not sound near as good. recording quality is something that is driving me nuts as i go through my old back catalogue of music.... songs i used to really enjoy, but because the recording is not very good your system really brings it to light and no longer enjoy listening to those songs anymore.

You make a very good point. This discussion comes up every now and then even in the high-end home audio circles, at what point does piss-poor recording quality diminish the results of the stereo? To me if there's obvious musical talent on the recording, it could be an original acetate 78 in mono and it would come through. If there isn't magic on the recording to begin with, it doesn't matter if it's in 24bit/96KHz high-resolution DVD-A, it's still going to suck.

[redlineaudio 0]

I don't usually chime in on topics like this, but I thought I'd drop my $.02 -- I think what really holds SQ back and makes SPL big is a couple of things. 1st SQ is almost purely subjective--one judge might absolutely love the way it sounds and another might cut it down. In SPL, the meter can't lie--so there is no sore loosers or anything like that. The other thing is crowd involvement---face it, how fun is it to watch someone listen to some jazz or test tracks? I love SQ, but I think it's going to be very hard to ever get it to the level that SPL is right now.....just my thoughts....

[cjosisek90 0]

Isnt the loudest SPL van at 180.1?

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[mrray13 30]

and let's not forget, it's way easier to get loud, then to sound really good.

That's a total myth

Getting to the pinnacle of either requires a lot of time, a lot of testing, and knowledge of the black arts that go into it. And the Camry shows that you can come across something that does pretty well for SQ, just by playing around with things Likewise, there are people that have gotten some pretty good results in the SPL lanes just by trying something right off the bat.

[

see, i don't think it's a total myth. i can throw jsut about any system together now and get into a 150. people are breaking 50's all day. which used to be the pinnicle. now they are pushing 180, and there is more then one person knocking on that door. now, getting into that league is a bit rough and goes right along with what you are saying, HOWEVER, a 150 is easy. adn a 150 is LOUD, no matter who you are. and even LB breaks a 150, so it can't be that hard. see what i'm getting at?

but to truly sound good, really good, takes work. time. eq this. attenuate that. raise this. shift that. i've never even messed with any of the time alignment crap on any of my decks, lol. i have a eqs, never used it. wouldn't know how to process sound if it bit me in the ass, lol.

to most people, it's far easier to get loud, which gets you noticed, then it is to sound good. and i think the getting noticed part is what most boomers are after anyway.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[sick6ness 1]

Most people my age (20) really don't know what SQ is, and they don't seem to care. I always hear people saying "I got a crazy system" I ask them what they have and it's always subs with large amps. I never ever heard someone tell me about their components or about their front stage.

For me it has to do with how your brought up in life. I was brought up around hi-fi home audio, my father was a big Bowers & Wilkins fan, so growing up I was always used to hearing good SQ. Kids that don't get the opportunity to hear these great loudspeakers don't realize what their missing out on.

SQ live on

SPL will survive only as long as someone's eardrum can survive.

And yes obtaining loudness is easier than obtaining clarity.

[KU40 173]

I don't know. I think you could say that hitting 150 is about the same as just dropping in a new pair of compenents in for SQ. Everybody can do it by just adding equipment, right? The ones who get to 180 db or tops in SQ are the ones who then take that component set or sub setup and tweak it a ton. They add time alignment, they tweak the tuning frequency and box size. They add EQ's, they add a ton of bracing and concrete. Both tweak positioning of drivers. etc.

[JimJ 11]

but to truly sound good, really good, takes work. time. eq this. attenuate that. raise this. shift that. i've never even messed with any of the time alignment crap on any of my decks, lol. i have a eqs, never used it. wouldn't know how to process sound if it bit me in the ass, lol.

The P9 has a great EQ...Dave has not touched it in this install Time alignment, yes, but since you can always refer to the manual to learn how to do it I'd hardly think that's something "difficult".

The other thing is crowd involvement---face it, how fun is it to watch someone listen to some jazz or test tracks? I love SQ, but I think it's going to be very hard to ever get it to the level that SPL is right now.....just my thoughts....

Very true, the enjoyment of SQ happens in the vehicle, not outside. I happen to think that's a good thing

[audio-neon 34]

Let's look at some of these sentences:

SQ is 95% install

SPL is 95% install.

SQ is a component set a low frequency capable sub-stage and countless hours of tuning.

SPL is a sub-stage, lots of power and countless box variations normally based on trial and error testing.

SQ is for the owners enjoyment

SPL is for the owners enjoyment

SQ is sanctioned and judged

SPL is sanctioned and judged.

SQ is rather user biased

SPL is definitive on a mic

I don't think that SQ needs to cost more than spl. I have done both and my sq car cost me less than my spl car to build. I had to build 20+ different boxes and did a ton of trial and error testing. I have heard factory sound systems with awesome SQ (albeit lacking the output that most 21 year olds want). I never grew up listening to vinyl or stereo set ups. My first experience with a sound correct room was at the age of 17 when I was touring an acoustical engineering firm in NYC. The acoustical engineers actually made a comment about the sq to spl trend in car audio and he compared it to softball vs. baseball. Almost completely identical just a few minor different theory changes.

The point is spl isn't easy at a world finals level. SQ can be perfectly easy at the local/regional level. Just look at the bug that had the stock speakers a year or two ago.

[mrray13 30]

but to truly sound good, really good, takes work. time. eq this. attenuate that. raise this. shift that. i've never even messed with any of the time alignment crap on any of my decks, lol. i have a eqs, never used it. wouldn't know how to process sound if it bit me in the ass, lol.

The P9 has a great EQ...Dave has not touched it in this install Time alignment, yes, but since you can always refer to the manual to learn how to do it I'd hardly think that's something "difficult".

The other thing is crowd involvement---face it, how fun is it to watch someone listen to some jazz or test tracks? I love SQ, but I think it's going to be very hard to ever get it to the level that SPL is right now.....just my thoughts....

Very true, the enjoyment of SQ happens in the vehicle, not outside. I happen to think that's a good thing

i won't argue that using the TA feature isn't difficult. on some decks, like my old alpine, it was rather easy to get to, and to adjust. i didn't because i didn't want to screw up what sound i had, lol.

and i don't necessarly think sq costs more then spl. but true clarity is harder to achieve in car then loud. a vehicle sucks for proper staging. it's too short, too narrow and and the transfer function sucks. but for loud? it's perfect. find the transient frequency and boom away.

i'm not taking anything away from teh 160+ plus crownd either. that's when it starts getting harder and even harder. but for loud, low to mid 50's, can be achieved far easier then building a similiarly competitve sq vehicle.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[mrray13 30]

The point is spl isn't easy at a world finals level. SQ can be perfectly easy at the local/regional level. Just look at the bug that had the stock speakers a year or two ago.

jsut like your SQ comment there, it just depends upon what class. again, bass race 130-139.9 isn't all that hard. burping low-mid 50's isn't hard and will place you fairly high. grab a 60 and you're a god (in street) adn that's when it gets hard.

but because SQ is subjective, that bug might not have won somewhere else, whereas a 155 on a TL is a 155. (within a few tenths usually, lol)

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[ramos 2]

and let's not forget, it's way easier to get loud, then to sound really good.

That's a total myth

Getting to the pinnacle of either requires a lot of time, a lot of testing, and knowledge of the black arts that go into it. And the Camry shows that you can come across something that does pretty well for SQ, just by playing around with things Likewise, there are people that have gotten some pretty good results in the SPL lanes just by trying something right off the bat.

I disagree. IMO it's easier to make a vehicle competitive in the spl arena than it is to make one competitive in the SQ arena. Playing around with things in the camry took a lot more time than you realize. 5 months of freezing our arses off. The setup may look simple , but there is some stuff going on in there that only Dave, Nick, and I know about. And that's the way it shall stay for the time being

P.S. By the way jim , How did your foray into competitive sq go ? Which one is easier ?

[dave_Edwards 1]

preach on brother Ramos!!! PREACH!

[sick6ness 1]

and let's not forget, it's way easier to get loud, then to sound really good.

That's a total myth

Getting to the pinnacle of either requires a lot of time, a lot of testing, and knowledge of the black arts that go into it. And the Camry shows that you can come across something that does pretty well for SQ, just by playing around with things Likewise, there are people that have gotten some pretty good results in the SPL lanes just by trying something right off the bat.

I disagree. IMO it's easier to make a vehicle competitive in the spl arena than it is to make one competitive in the SQ arena. Playing around with things in the camry took a lot more time than you realize. 5 months of freezing our arses off. The setup may look simple , but there is some stuff going on in there that only Dave, Nick, and I know about. And that's the way it shall stay for the time being

P.S. By the way jim , How did your foray into competitive sq go ? Which one is easier ?

I wanna know the secrets!

[JimJ 11]

Which one is easier ?

I basically made the same effort for that as competing in SPL with a sealed box

I wanna know the secrets!

Cawnbread...biscuits...mmmhmm

[Audio Junkies 3]

SQ competitions are very political. I've heard some pretty eye opening stories, but I won't elaborate much as the people involved would prefer the info not to get out. Needless to say, the best car does not always win.

I also think the install/appearance judging for SQ is bullshit. If I can drive up a $700 hoopty that can lay the smack down in sound quality on a $100k+ car, the hoopty should win hands down. It is a sound quality contest right, not a "what car looks best competition". I've always gotten the impression that SQ competitions have to do a large part with appearance.

[DevilDriver 28]

The whole premise of SQ competition is flawed because it relies on the subjective interpretation of something very imprecise. For everything that I dislike about SPL competitions, at least a well-defined and easily identified method of judging is used.