The 10 Biggest Lies in Audio

[Tirefryr 1,742]

I'll address this...but first I have to ask:

Please explain to me what opinion and feeling you are exactly trying to express. That *what* is subjective? Sound quality? I'm not debating that....

I am absoultely not making a personal attack on you, (Although I do find it interesting someone who once said that they are "thick-skinned" and also said "what people say online doesn't affect me" would feel that way)

All I have done here is explained to you that what you said was fundamentally flawed. Understand that making generalizations about how people choose and determine what sound quality *is* , is just a bad move, and one that you (not you specifically, no personal attacks here!) are likely going to get called on.

.....I know, I'll admit I've made the mistake myself....

If you feel that in the end, it comes down to how something sounds to the human ear, that is your opinion, I don't disagree with you on it. It isn't right or wrong of you to think so.

I personally have purchased almost all my equipment without ever hearing it beforehand. How do I determine sound quality? Well, as you said yourself, by research (Yes, I reread your post buddy).

But everyone has their own methods of research as well, do they not?

Like I said, I am choosing not going to get into the tube/hybrid tube vs. solid state argument

I'm not even going to bother. Everything has been laid out clear as day in my other posts. If you cannot understand from reading them, I can do nothing more for you.

[Supa_c 1]

that is all BS man...my monster cables sound so much better than the ones i solder....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Totally !

I can hear the difference

[JimJ 11]

im waiting to see what Jim says about the Tube thing

Would I miss out on a subject like this? :gayfight2:

Tube amps will sound different than solid state amps, but this is always due to equalization, harmonics, distortion, volume level, or other factors, etc.

I'll accept two out of those four, and add one you didn't mention. Harmonics, distortion ratings, and the damping factor will be the biggest factors in making "the sound".

Why do I choose tubes? (single-ended triodes, more specifically)

1. SET's are one of the simplest amp designs out there, with the least parts count.

2. Class A amplification, by design, is one of the purest forms of amplification. The active device is always on, through both peaks of the waveform. You can't get crossover distortion from peak to trough.

3. The soundstage and imaging is incredible. I realize the speakers have a huge role in this; but it goes back to point #7 below.

4. You can heat your room from the heat of the triodes on a cold winter's night.

5. They look damn cool.

6. This is 1930's technology, so if something breaks you can get the soldering iron and fix it yourself without a magnifying glass (anyone that's worked on SMD parts can appreciate this)

7. I personally prefer the sound of a low DF system running into a crossoverless loudspeaker. There's an intimacy about the sound that's IMO is missing with very complex active systems running much more power.

I realize very few members here have had the chance to sit down and audition a good tube system...but I encourage those that haven't to try Those that have, you know what I'm talking about.

real amps glow in the dark...

[EFFENDI 0]

I personally have not yet heard a modern tube amp system (pre-50s is all I have dealt with) so I cant truly give an accurate analysis on the modern stuff.

I'm sure I'd have a better understanding if I had some more experience. But as far as I understand right now, all tube amps add some sort of psycho-acoustic effect to the original signal. Modify it, and yes, its possible that those effect may add something considered beneficial to some listeners. I personally prefer the signal to remain as pure and untouched as possible.

So lets just let sleeping dogs lie here guys.

[EFFENDI 0]

I'm not even going to bother.  Everything has been laid out clear as day in my other posts.  If you cannot understand from reading them, I can do nothing more for you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You stoop as low as insulting my intelligence and comprehension..

I'm sure you care less what I think, which contradicts why you subtly alluded to an insult in your response. If you truly don't care, then why even make a stand?

If I "dont understand" anything here, it is what your motivation is against me. You diagree with just about everything I post, and frankly I let a lot of it slide. You are more than entitled to your opinion. Yet, in this case you made a simple erroneous claim, and I called you on it. Granted, my tone might have been a bit fierce, and if it was, I pologize for it. Like I said before, I'm not trying to crysh egos around here.

As I said, I "waste my time" with this, because I have been there and done it. You are handling it very immaturely.

The problem I have here, is that, you went off on some tangent saying that "everything" is subjective. Mrray gave some examples, but it wasn't his post in the first place. Why am I missing your point? What is "everything"? Being as vague as you are is not making anything clear.

I don't want to have some sort of "beef" with you. There is a simple solution here. Just dont make generalizations, and then attempt to redeem yourself with irrelevant arguments, and refuting (ar at least attempting to) with personal attacks.

[jntar 15]

I personally have not yet heard a modern tube amp system (pre-50s is all I have dealt with) so I cant truly give an accurate analysis on the modern stuff. 

My personal preference is a sound that is true to the original as possible, (and I hate to rip off Diamond Audio for this) but "as the artist intends" it to sound. Not colored, not "imaged", distorted, "warm" whatever you want to call it...etc. etc. All those descriptions of what tube amps "add", well to me, are all just "audiophile" jargon.....

From what I understand, all tube amps inherently add psycho-acoustic effects (via harmonic distortion, etc. etc.) to this signal, making it sound better to some listeners.

Like I said, I have my preference, and I'm sure I'd have a better understanding if I had some more experience. But I really wish to let sleeping dogs lie on the tube vs. solid state debate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I personnally dont care too much for tubes of any kind in car audio. But that is my preference, and has no bearing on which is better. Home audio or Pro audio is a complete other story.

Now, I do not agree with the statment you made that I bolded. What you dont realize is that 90% of the artists out there (outside of hip-hop & rap) use tubes of some sort in their equipment.

I personally started on a Fender Bassmaster (tube) and switched to an ampeg solid state. I also own a Fender deville, Fender twin, and mesa boogie head with a marshall cab. (all tubes)

Tube amps are chice for artists for most anything from guitar to bass to even keyboard or PA. If the artist intended to play/record on this equipment, I do not see either one over the other by a far stretch. The only edge in my head would be the tubes, because as stated "as the artist origanally intended"

[JimJ 11]

I personally have not yet heard a modern tube amp system (pre-50s is all I have dealt with) so I cant truly give an accurate analysis on the modern stuff.

Modern stuff? The technology hasn't changed since the '50s...SET's are 30's era circuits, and push-pull didn't come into widespread usage until after WWII...not much has changed since then.

I haven't had the chance to play with any single-ended MOSFET amps (there simply aren't that many around ), so I guess I can't give a direct comparison.

[Acidburn 10]

that is all BS man...my monster cables sound so much better than the ones i solder....

Totally !

I can hear the difference

my Walmart wire claims it "provides deeper bass, greater clarity, better imaging, and cleaner highs"

oh man, my lamp is going to sound awesome

[JimJ 11]

12awg twisted pair owns j00.

[Acidburn 10]

12awg twisted pair owns j00.

16 awg non-twisted

[Supa_c 1]

that is all BS man...my monster cables sound so much better than the ones i solder....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Totally !

I can hear the difference

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

my Walmart wire claims it "provides deeper bass, greater clarity, better imaging, and cleaner highs"

oh man, my lamp is going to sound awesome

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

same

[JimJ 11]

[dennisp 0]

my Walmart wire claims it "provides deeper bass, greater clarity, better imaging, and cleaner highs"

oh man, my lamp is going to sound awesome

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[CBFryman 2]

real amps glow in the dark...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hommie, i got LED's wired into my CF heat sink with the neon atachment on the side

[JimJ 11]

Yeah, so do my PG Tantrums

filaments > led's

[Supa_c 1]

LED is better, sorry

No wasted energy

[Tirefryr 1,742]

I'm not even going to bother.  Everything has been laid out clear as day in my other posts.  If you cannot understand from reading them, I can do nothing more for you.

You stoop as low as insulting my intelligence and comprehension..

See. Here is YOUR problem right here. You're making assumptions and reading into what I type how YOU want to see it, not as it's literal sense. If you don't understand me, there's nothing else I can do to make you. It's as simple as that. Nowehere in there did I insult you. That's what you ASSUME I meant and there is your problem with me.

I'm sure you care less what I think, which contradicts why you subtly alluded to an insult in your response. If you truly don't care, then why even make a stand?

There it is again, making an assumption. If I though you were an idiot or unintelligent, I would say it. Simple as that. As for, "making a stand, " I am merely replying, simple as that. If someone addresses me, I respond.

If I "dont understand" anything here, it is what your motivation is against me. You diagree with just about everything I post, and frankly I let a lot of it slide. You are more than entitled to your opinion. Yet, in this case you made a simple erroneous claim, and I called you on it. Granted, my tone might have been a bit fierce, and if it was, I pologize for it. Like I said before, I'm not trying to crysh egos around here.

Seriously, WTF dude? What makes you think I have something against YOU or am singling you out. So what if I disagree with everything you post,

not like I do, but even so, the entire point of the forum is to add input or participate in a discussion. If I disagree with something, I am going to post my thoughts, no matter who it is.

As I said, I "waste my time" with this, because I have been there and done it. You are handling it very immaturely.

Yes, I am being quite the child.

The problem I have here, is that, you went off on some tangent saying that "everything" is subjective. Mrray gave some examples, but it wasn't his post in the first place. Why am I missing your point? What is "everything"? Being as vague as you are is not making anything clear.

Really, I think I have laid that out fairly well in my previous posts. I don't know what else to say or another possible way to convey it. To me it makes perect sense and I cannot see why don't understand what I'm saying.

.

I don't want to have some sort of "beef" with you.  There is a simple solution here. Just dont make generalizations, and then attempt to redeem yourself with irrelevant arguments, and refuting (ar at least attempting to) with personal attacks.

I have no beef with you, or anyone else here for that matter. I made no generalizations, started no arguments or made any personal attacks. I don't know why you continue to put words in my mouth or make assumptions that I am trying to convey a different message than what I have typed. Just read the posts. If you think it's something personal, stop right there and skip over it, because I'll tell you right now, you're on the wrong track.

[dennisp 0]

lets just simma down everyone. SIMMA DOWN NOW!

[Supa_c 1]

Do i sense a tad of contradiction here ?

[Impious 1,476]

As far as I know, no one has ever beat the amp challenge.

I have heard that Eric Holdaway "beat" the test (was able to detect which amp was which), but that RC started making excuses, claimed the test was invalid and refused to pay him.

[EFFENDI 0]

As far as I know, no one has ever beat the amp challenge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have heard that Eric Holdaway "beat" the test (was able to detect which amp was which), but that RC started making excuses, claimed the test was invalid and refused to pay him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm, off to do some research...

[EFFENDI 0]

<SNIPPED>

I'll tell you right now, you're on the wrong track.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gee. I must be stranded, broken down beyond repair, and wiped out off the track, let alone "on" the wrong one.

I guess I cant depend on your help, since there is nothing you can do for me, right? If I am SO wrong in what I said, you are not doing anything to educate me as to what is "right". So I beg you, please help me sir!

Lets stop being so politically correct here.

You seem to have missed my point. There is a bigger issue here, which I am simply trying to educate you on. Stop flipping the script, and listen for a second.

I told you outright, numerous times, that I had made the same mistake, and someone called me on it. Did I deny saying what I said, did I accuse the accuser? No. Fortunately I walked away carrying the knowledge that it is best to research something and back it up with evidence before you decide to make a generalized claim.

You need to be a man about this, take responsibility for your actions, quit making irrelevant arguments againts what you said, and walk away having learned something, instead of taking my criticism so poorly. You definitely have something to learn here if you are willing to listen. It's that simple.

[EFFENDI 0]

I personnally dont care too much for tubes of any kind in car audio.  But that is my preference, and has no bearing on which is better.  Home audio or Pro audio is a complete other story.

Now, I do not agree with the statment you made that I bolded.  What you dont realize is that 90% of the artists out there (outside of hip-hop & rap)  use tubes of some sort in their equipment.

I personally started on a Fender Bassmaster (tube) and switched to an ampeg solid state.  I also own a Fender deville, Fender twin, and mesa boogie head with a marshall cab. (all tubes)

Tube amps are chice for artists for most anything from guitar to bass to even keyboard or PA.  If the artist intended to play/record on this equipment, I do not see either one over the other by a far stretch.  The only edge in my head would be the tubes, because as stated "as the artist origanally intended"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tubes in cars? Me neither. Don't know why, and I'm sure I will never find out.

However, I DO have extensive experience in pro audio. I have had the priveledge of working in a few professional recording studios. I have produced and mastered albums. I know my way around a mixer or two. I can say beyond the shadow of a doubt that I FULLY "realize".

Something you may not realize, is that (based on my first hand knowledge and experience) the majority of modern recording artists and musicians do NOT use tube amplifiers at all anymore . A majority of them use what is called "amplifier modelling". That is, the combination of a DAW and a software plugin that mimics (pretty accurately I might add) the characteristics of analog/tube amplifiers. These are even utilized in performance situations, since tube amps are often less durable, and sometimes expensive. Modellers offer a much cheaper solution, desireable performance and quality, and many of the guitarists that I know use them exclusively.

Now, what I dont understand about what you said (what exactly in my statement do you disagree with?), is that you "would give the edge to a tube amp." Now correct me if I am wrong, but I am assuming that you are talking about playback of recorded material.

If thats the case, neither amplifier has any advantage (disregarding those factors which are subjective to the listener in this case). Just because the material was recorded from the output of a tube amp, a tube amp will not necessarily "faithfully" reproduce this material better than a solid state amp (or vice versa). A properly designed amp should neither add, nor take away anything from the artist's original recording. All an amplifier SHOULD do, is to amplify. So irregardless of what material it is, a properly designed amp SHOULD be giving an "untouched" signal. This is all I meant when I said, "as the artist intended"

[EFFENDI 0]

In all honesty, I do appreciate everyone sharing their opinion

Just keep your claims factual!

[mrray13 30]

how's the research go into RC losing the amp challange?

and to everyone other then effendi and tirefryr....

stay outa their conversation. they are handling it in a decent matter and i want them to resolve it without help. comment on the original topic or any other opinions, but leave those specific posts alone, please.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee