Am i wrong here?

[SPLScion 3]

I like your suggestion eggy, and djphilly you hit the nail right on the head with your last post.

A totally random thought here, but wouldn't it awsome if all HU's and amps had "clip blockers" making it impossible to turn the volume up to the point of clipping. Would change ALOT of peoples opinion of deck's internal amplifiers and save so many people from blowing speakers and subs, aaww in a perfect world.

[lithium 358]

I like your suggestion eggy, and djphilly you hit the nail right on the head with your last post.

A totally random thought here, but wouldn't it awsome if all HU's and amps had "clip blockers" making it impossible to turn the volume up to the point of clipping. Would change ALOT of peoples opinion of deck's internal amplifiers and save so many people from blowing speakers and subs, aaww in a perfect world.

the 2nd half of your post goes to show how little people understand car audio... this thread is so full of BS and miss information, it might as well be closed...

[mrd 0]

"high powered head unit"? that doesn't exist, there really isn't a HU on the market with an internal amp worth a damn really, and I never said nor implied he needed an amp powerful enough to make his ears "bleed". I'll agree that perhaps eggy should have been more clear what type of amp to use, but I'll take a crappy HU with a SAZ50.4 powering average components over a high end HU powering any speakers, even Focals.

Also, a 2 channel amp of 70-100 watts is not much power, not even close. Perhaps we are arguing over symantics, but I am having a hard time with the comments about coax speakers, and the implication that there is any HU with an internal amp worth the material its made out of, in a perfect world all HU's would have only RCA outputs and no internal amp.

Really tho its the coax speaker thing killing me, guess I'll just have to let it go. All healthy arguing aside, your a member now so I hope you stick around and check out the site. If your a fan of SQ, or SPL or good people in general you will love it here. I've said this before and will ay it again, discussion leads to progression, so enjoy the site and again stick around.

I'll put a good hu with avg components to the test with your crappy hu and amp driven avg components any day.

Just because you have more power does not equate to you having better sound. Some of the best speakers I have ever heard are 50wrms. This is the damned point I was trying to make. You all think that if your shitty speakers with a shitty source will be powered with 200wrms they will magically sound awesome! They won't.

The kid in the other thread is on a limited budget. Very limited. Not everyone is made of money where they can afford a source, amp, and speakers.

[mrd 0]

I took the liberty of highlighting what you posted just in case you forgot. the speaker and the power would make a whole world of difference in quality. headunits usually put out lets say 50watts max per channel(12-25watts rms estimating). now to a speaker that is rated at lets say 60 watts rms that HU is going to be clipping way before the speaker reaches rms power. hince the need for an AMP to supply the right amount of power to reach sufficent sound quality without DIRTY signal or power

In the case that started the argument, the op has xplode coax. These will run fine off hu power alone, and will sound no better except at extreme volumes where the internal amp can't keep up (if the hu will even get to that volume). Upgrading the stock harness to a thicker power and ground will help the hu supply power better.

[chopper79 1]

Im kinda torn between both arguments here. My personal opinion on the situation is below:

In SQ judging they listen to the system at low volumes instead of higher volumes during judging. The placement and setup is more key to SQ then shear power in this case of SQ. You could make a very good sounding system off just a high quality head unit and a decent set of coaxial, providing the installation a speaker placement is optimal. You could change over the crossover on the coaxial with your own setup to get the xover points you would like to achieve. This could also be done by by amplifying the coaxial from the head unit (4ch.). This would be done by clipping the leads powering the tweeter and therefor making it a component set but in coaxial form. With this method and the coaxial placed in a kick panel location with optimal direction for imaging and staging could yield great results in SQ. Since they are in a coaxial form already it should yield in helping with the time alignment issue. You could just leave them in coaxial form and take the rear channels from the head unit to power a set of mid-bass in the rear and build a bandpass filter for them. This would help raise the sound stage when used in this manner. The rear fill needs to have less power then the front and this is achieved by the fade control on the HU. This process would be costly but it does help wit the point of IT CAN BE DONE. All of this is safe for the speakers due to the low volume they judge at, at higher volume it would be devastating to the equipment.

The proper way to do it is with quality source, amplifiers,speakers, etc. with this being said I agree with both people but if the individual that is on the budget is looking for better SQ then personally they need to start at the source and work there way back. The old saying of crap in = crap out still applies and that starts at the source. If the individual is happy with the quality of sound they have but is looking for just more volume and sound then by all means amp the thing and they may be happy but either way the individual needs to be set in the correct direction based on his wants and budget.

Now I need to look in the couch cushions for more loot because I just spent my 2 cents.... lol

[Impious 1,476]

I would have to say this is one of those particular cases where the OP probably would be better off upgrading his source and speakers before worrying about amplifying. The cheapy VR3 headunit and Xplod speakers are pretty worthless.

Beyond this particular scenario, mrd's argument wouldn't hold an ounce of water.

[jcarter1885 995]

I would have to say this is one of those particular cases where the OP probably would be better off upgrading his source and speakers before worrying about amplifying. The cheapy VR3 headunit and Xplod speakers are pretty worthless.

Beyond this particular scenario, mrd's argument wouldn't hold an ounce of water.

x2, I would vote for replacement of speakers first and then head unit (that right there will give him a night and day differnce). I do understand that some people are on a budget and nobody said he had to go and buy the best out there, but there is better out there than what he has for cheap. Just tell him to do some shopping around and get some good brands entry level or medium level products and they will kick the sonys ass. Just my .02

[///M5 2,833]

Quotes from Honda Tech:

An amp will amplify a signal. While it amplifies the signal, it adds noise. The amount of noise it adds is where you get the s/n ratio. This is in respect to the input signal.

Technically you have better sound coming from speakers directly wired to a headunit than a signal that goes from the hu through rcas, to the amp and to the speaker. The longer your wires, the more noise it adds. Why do you think the hu is the most important part? Because if you send a dirty signal to the speakers, or to an amp and amplify it, it is still a dirty signal.

Lots of wrong here.

The longer wires do not add more noise, not that you are going to hear. Hell unless you have some ridiculous measurement gear you aren't even going to be able to measure it. If you can't measure an LCR difference you most definitely can't hear it.

Dirty signal amplified will also be dirty indeed. However, a dirty signal amplified by a crappy h/u amp will be exaggerated and made worse. Even though his h/u is junk, it has a "claimed" 80dB of SNR which is fine. Also, good luck finding an d/a chip today that isn't better than what was available 10 years ago even in a budget h/u. Considering I wouldn't worry so much about the junk h/u on a limited budget. It may suck, but the amps in a great headunit will still be noisier than the d/a in that crappy one. Which means an amp and speakers is a better solution than a new h/u.

I can guarantee you that a shitty hu with a kick ass amp will still sound like shit.

A shitty install with kick ass speakers will still sound like shit.

A good hu and a good speaker install with no amp will sound better than both aforementioned examples.

If you left out the word install in the second sentence it would be really wrong. Indeed install is 90% of the whole sound anyway. That being said again on a limited budget putting it into an amp, speakers and deadening is the key.

No way in this case would I offer to replace the h/u. Low budget screams install, amp, and speakers.

[mrd 0]

Quotes from Honda Tech:

Lots of wrong here.

The longer wires do not add more noise, not that you are going to hear. Hell unless you have some ridiculous measurement gear you aren't even going to be able to measure it. If you can't measure an LCR difference you most definitely can't hear it.

Dirty signal amplified will also be dirty indeed. However, a dirty signal amplified by a crappy h/u amp will be exaggerated and made worse. Even though his h/u is junk, it has a "claimed" 80dB of SNR which is fine. Also, good luck finding an d/a chip today that isn't better than what was available 10 years ago even in a budget h/u. Considering I wouldn't worry so much about the junk h/u on a limited budget. It may suck, but the amps in a great headunit will still be noisier than the d/a in that crappy one. Which means an amp and speakers is a better solution than a new h/u.

How is the amp in a good hu any different in the noise adding department than a "budget" amplifier, other than the fact you can get more spl out of an externally amplified setup? Based on your technology improves statement, the amplifiers in the newer hu's would also create less noise and put out more power... Tell me why a hu's internal amp is "crappy" other than the mere fact that it puts out only 19wrms...

You people still seem to believe that louder = better sound, which is not the case. As I have said before, some of the best speakers I have ever heard are powered by 50wrms. Some of the shittiest speakers I have ever hear are powered by 200wrms...

[SpeakerBoy 64]

Quotes from Honda Tech:

Lots of wrong here.

The longer wires do not add more noise, not that you are going to hear. Hell unless you have some ridiculous measurement gear you aren't even going to be able to measure it. If you can't measure an LCR difference you most definitely can't hear it.

Dirty signal amplified will also be dirty indeed. However, a dirty signal amplified by a crappy h/u amp will be exaggerated and made worse. Even though his h/u is junk, it has a "claimed" 80dB of SNR which is fine. Also, good luck finding an d/a chip today that isn't better than what was available 10 years ago even in a budget h/u. Considering I wouldn't worry so much about the junk h/u on a limited budget. It may suck, but the amps in a great headunit will still be noisier than the d/a in that crappy one. Which means an amp and speakers is a better solution than a new h/u.

How is the amp in a good hu any different in the noise adding department than a "budget" amplifier, other than the fact you can get more spl out of an externally amplified setup? Based on your technology improves statement, the amplifiers in the newer hu's would also create less noise and put out more power... Tell me why a hu's internal amp is "crappy" other than the mere fact that it puts out only 19wrms...

You people still seem to believe that louder = better sound, which is not the case. As I have said before, some of the best speakers I have ever heard are powered by 50wrms. Some of the shittiest speakers I have ever hear are powered by 200wrms...

Lolz. . Grow a pair and admit you're wrong! With more power coming from an ampifier, there is a higher level of CLEAN power. While the headunit MIGHT put out 50w, it's clipped to shit. A clean 50w will sound better whether its focal, or pyle!

[mrd 0]

Quotes from Honda Tech:

Lots of wrong here.

The longer wires do not add more noise, not that you are going to hear. Hell unless you have some ridiculous measurement gear you aren't even going to be able to measure it. If you can't measure an LCR difference you most definitely can't hear it.

Dirty signal amplified will also be dirty indeed. However, a dirty signal amplified by a crappy h/u amp will be exaggerated and made worse. Even though his h/u is junk, it has a "claimed" 80dB of SNR which is fine. Also, good luck finding an d/a chip today that isn't better than what was available 10 years ago even in a budget h/u. Considering I wouldn't worry so much about the junk h/u on a limited budget. It may suck, but the amps in a great headunit will still be noisier than the d/a in that crappy one. Which means an amp and speakers is a better solution than a new h/u.

How is the amp in a good hu any different in the noise adding department than a "budget" amplifier, other than the fact you can get more spl out of an externally amplified setup? Based on your technology improves statement, the amplifiers in the newer hu's would also create less noise and put out more power... Tell me why a hu's internal amp is "crappy" other than the mere fact that it puts out only 19wrms...

You people still seem to believe that louder = better sound, which is not the case. As I have said before, some of the best speakers I have ever heard are powered by 50wrms. Some of the shittiest speakers I have ever hear are powered by 200wrms...

Lolz. . Grow a pair and admit you're wrong! With more power coming from an ampifier, there is a higher level of CLEAN power. While the headunit MIGHT put out 50w, it's clipped to shit. A clean 50w will sound better whether its focal, or pyle!

I never said a hu will put out 50wrms. You even said it yourself "with an amplifier there is a HIGHER LEVEL of clean power" meaning that only spl is affected based on what you just now said. This means that the system will be able to venture into higher volumes without clipping. SQ is only affected at higher volumes.

Edited October 16, 2009 by mrd

[eggyhustles 33]

You're delusional along with the other guy on hondatech

mods, lock this up...

Edited October 16, 2009 by eggyhustles

[kirill007 52]

Most speakers sound the best at half RMS, that's what i experienced with a lot of home speakers.

If you only have 1/10 of the RMS of a conservately rated speaker going to you're speakers it's not going to sound as good as in case 1.

In a HU you don't have a lot of power, that's no really good, you need a bit of headroom for best sound quality.

Placement of a speaker is really important, in home audio or car audio, speaker placement is one of the most important things.

The best speakers can sound bad if they aren't aligned well.

Most speakers can sound kind of good if they are placed well and are running off a headunit.

But it will sound better if you put an amp on the components or coax speakers.

[KU40 173]

I think too many people on here are focused on the power, and just keep bringing it up. Forget about the power- clean, dirty, or whatever. From a purely power standpoint, going from 20 watts RMS from a good head unit to a 50 watt RMS amp (on 50 watt speakers) is nearly negligible. Maybe about 4 db difference. And before you say that's a lot, it isn't that much in reality. Probably two notches on your volume knob.

I have heard a fairly decent sounding and loud pair of coaxials with only head unit power. In fact it surprised me quite a bit. However, it still could have been better.

What M5 said in his last post is really all that you need to worry about. The sound has more to do with the signal coming off of the CD or whatever than the amplifier.

To make an analogy, ask any serious home theater guy and he'll tell you that for the best sound you need a preamp and dedicated amplifiers. Why? Because things get compromised when you do an all-in-one receiver. Same thing with head units. There is a reason Eclipse and some other head unit manufacturers make unamplified head units. To get the best sound you need to dedicate things.

However this situation is a bit tricky. I've had cheap head units that sounded terrible, even though I wasn't using the on board amplifier. When I switched it out for a new head unit (also with built in amplifier that I didn't use) there was a very clear difference in sound. But if his head unit does not have highpass crossovers for the mids, he is doing a disservice to them. He needs to either get a head unit with crossovers if he wants to continue using deck power or buy an external amp. In this case, why not get an external amp. Not only would he get crossovers, but extra power to boot.

[djphilly 11]

You're delusional along with the other guy on hondatech

mods, lock this up...

I can't believe this MRD cat is still trying to prove his point when he has nobody supporting his case. I was waiting for ///M5 to comment on this and he couldn't be more right

[blue fury 3]

I can see some of the points that mrd is trying to make and even agree with a couple, but in the big scheme of things like M5 said,

Low budget screams install, amp, and speakers.

Not one time did I come across anyone with a low budget that wanted excellent SQ.. just loudness.

I'll I've read here is mostly different mindsets from loud to strictly SQ.

[mrd 0]

I can see some of the points that mrd is trying to make and even agree with a couple, but in the big scheme of things like M5 said,

Low budget screams install, amp, and speakers.

Not one time did I come across anyone with a low budget that wanted excellent SQ.. just loudness.

I'll I've read here is mostly different mindsets from loud to strictly SQ.

Loudness is where the amp comes in to play...

[mrd 0]

I think too many people on here are focused on the power, and just keep bringing it up. Forget about the power- clean, dirty, or whatever. From a purely power standpoint, going from 20 watts RMS from a good head unit to a 50 watt RMS amp (on 50 watt speakers) is nearly negligible. Maybe about 4 db difference. And before you say that's a lot, it isn't that much in reality. Probably two notches on your volume knob.

I have heard a fairly decent sounding and loud pair of coaxials with only head unit power. In fact it surprised me quite a bit. However, it still could have been better.

What M5 said in his last post is really all that you need to worry about. The sound has more to do with the signal coming off of the CD or whatever than the amplifier.

To make an analogy, ask any serious home theater guy and he'll tell you that for the best sound you need a preamp and dedicated amplifiers. Why? Because things get compromised when you do an all-in-one receiver. Same thing with head units. There is a reason Eclipse and some other head unit manufacturers make unamplified head units. To get the best sound you need to dedicate things.

However this situation is a bit tricky. I've had cheap head units that sounded terrible, even though I wasn't using the on board amplifier. When I switched it out for a new head unit (also with built in amplifier that I didn't use) there was a very clear difference in sound. But if his head unit does not have highpass crossovers for the mids, he is doing a disservice to them. He needs to either get a head unit with crossovers if he wants to continue using deck power or buy an external amp. In this case, why not get an external amp. Not only would he get crossovers, but extra power to boot.

" The sound has more to do with the signal coming off of the CD or whatever than the amplifier."

This is what I have been trying to tell everyone.

It seems like you know what I am saying.

[eggyhustles 33]

Like one of my buddies once said, forums are dangerous places when people start blindly believing others by post count.

ah well, what can ya do..

[///M5 2,833]

How is the amp in a good hu any different in the noise adding department than a "budget" amplifier, other than the fact you can get more spl out of an externally amplified setup? Based on your technology improves statement, the amplifiers in the newer hu's would also create less noise and put out more power... Tell me why a hu's internal amp is "crappy" other than the mere fact that it puts out only 19wrms...

You people still seem to believe that louder = better sound, which is not the case. As I have said before, some of the best speakers I have ever heard are powered by 50wrms. Some of the shittiest speakers I have ever hear are powered by 200wrms...

Your comments are funny. You keep talking about "noise" and that you will just amplify it. Where do you think this noise comes from? Only three real places: either the pre-amp stage, the d/a's or the amplifier itself. Today's d/a's are pretty much all fine and it is really easy to make a cheap pre-amp stage that sounds decent as you don't need a ton of gain. Use a laptop as an analogy. Your music can sound pretty good playing with the built in soundcard which utilizes a chip that costs the manufacturer a nickel maybe. A cheap headunit regularly is of better quality of this even including OEM stock units. So where is this nasty noise coming from then? Definitely the part of the circuit that is the MOST expensive to build which is the amplifier. For instance the power supply on a cheap off board amplifier will still cost more than the whole amplifier in a headunit.

Headunit amplifier is an oxymoron. If you truly believe this is real power, I am thoroughly amused. Component parts are chosen regularly to meet a price point and pretend to be a spec. 19w is a joke and not in the amount of power but the joke is that they got you to believe it.

No where anywhere did I say "louder=better", but I will guarantee for the OP in the thread on Hondatech that he will listen to his stereo turned up (sole reason he is getting it as he wants more) which means that poor h/u "amplifier" will be creating mad noise instead of doing what it is supposed to and that is amplify the signal off the pre-amp.

I suppose you will tell us next how headroom won't improve the sound and it is unnecessary as well as it would fit right into your argument.

[slim2fattycake 85]

I can see some of the points that mrd is trying to make and even agree with a couple, but in the big scheme of things like M5 said,

Low budget screams install, amp, and speakers.

Not one time did I come across anyone with a low budget that wanted excellent SQ.. just loudness.

all I've read here is mostly different mindsets from loud to strictly SQ.

x2 on the whole post and I definitely agree with the last sentence. The OP doesn't know what he wants and is more than likely in for more volume and not really SQ.

[KU40 173]

How is the amp in a good hu any different in the noise adding department than a "budget" amplifier, other than the fact you can get more spl out of an externally amplified setup? Based on your technology improves statement, the amplifiers in the newer hu's would also create less noise and put out more power... Tell me why a hu's internal amp is "crappy" other than the mere fact that it puts out only 19wrms...

You people still seem to believe that louder = better sound, which is not the case. As I have said before, some of the best speakers I have ever heard are powered by 50wrms. Some of the shittiest speakers I have ever hear are powered by 200wrms...

Your comments are funny. You keep talking about "noise" and that you will just amplify it. Where do you think this noise comes from? Only three real places: either the pre-amp stage, the d/a's or the amplifier itself. Today's d/a's are pretty much all fine and it is really easy to make a cheap pre-amp stage that sounds decent as you don't need a ton of gain. Use a laptop as an analogy. Your music can sound pretty good playing with the built in soundcard which utilizes a chip that costs the manufacturer a nickel maybe. A cheap headunit regularly is of better quality of this even including OEM stock units. So where is this nasty noise coming from then? Definitely the part of the circuit that is the MOST expensive to build which is the amplifier. For instance the power supply on a cheap off board amplifier will still cost more than the whole amplifier in a headunit.

Headunit amplifier is an oxymoron. If you truly believe this is real power, I am thoroughly amused. Component parts are chosen regularly to meet a price point and pretend to be a spec. 19w is a joke and not in the amount of power but the joke is that they got you to believe it.

No where anywhere did I say "louder=better", but I will guarantee for the OP in the thread on Hondatech that he will listen to his stereo turned up (sole reason he is getting it as he wants more) which means that poor h/u "amplifier" will be creating mad noise instead of doing what it is supposed to and that is amplify the signal off the pre-amp.

I suppose you will tell us next how headroom won't improve the sound and it is unnecessary as well as it would fit right into your argument.

I guess I misunderstood your last post. My bad. You were arguing that the amplifier had more to do with it.

But I will say that not all head units are created equal in the preamp stage, as per my difference in sound experience. Low-end Kenwood sounded shitty compared to mid-grade Alpine. I can't tell you if the d/as were different and don't know the differences in the preamps. But there was a difference somewhere in there. I can't remember ever switching the same speakers from HU power to external amplifier power, though, so I wouldn't know the differences in sound there.

[mrd 0]

How is the amp in a good hu any different in the noise adding department than a "budget" amplifier, other than the fact you can get more spl out of an externally amplified setup? Based on your technology improves statement, the amplifiers in the newer hu's would also create less noise and put out more power... Tell me why a hu's internal amp is "crappy" other than the mere fact that it puts out only 19wrms...

You people still seem to believe that louder = better sound, which is not the case. As I have said before, some of the best speakers I have ever heard are powered by 50wrms. Some of the shittiest speakers I have ever hear are powered by 200wrms...

Your comments are funny. You keep talking about "noise" and that you will just amplify it. Where do you think this noise comes from? Only three real places: either the pre-amp stage, the d/a's or the amplifier itself. Today's d/a's are pretty much all fine and it is really easy to make a cheap pre-amp stage that sounds decent as you don't need a ton of gain. Use a laptop as an analogy. Your music can sound pretty good playing with the built in soundcard which utilizes a chip that costs the manufacturer a nickel maybe. A cheap headunit regularly is of better quality of this even including OEM stock units. So where is this nasty noise coming from then? Definitely the part of the circuit that is the MOST expensive to build which is the amplifier. For instance the power supply on a cheap off board amplifier will still cost more than the whole amplifier in a headunit.

Headunit amplifier is an oxymoron. If you truly believe this is real power, I am thoroughly amused. Component parts are chosen regularly to meet a price point and pretend to be a spec. 19w is a joke and not in the amount of power but the joke is that they got you to believe it.

No where anywhere did I say "louder=better", but I will guarantee for the OP in the thread on Hondatech that he will listen to his stereo turned up (sole reason he is getting it as he wants more) which means that poor h/u "amplifier" will be creating mad noise instead of doing what it is supposed to and that is amplify the signal off the pre-amp.

I suppose you will tell us next how headroom won't improve the sound and it is unnecessary as well as it would fit right into your argument.

Actually no. My whole point is that at lower volumes an amplifier WILL NOT make one damn bit of difference. Yes, at higher volumes, an amp will allow you to have better sq. My hu with paper components will go louder than I want to listen to them before it starts "producing mad noise." Sources vary, so while mine is capable of doing this (clarion), another hu (sony xplode or OEM unit) with the same exact speakers cannot. Based on your logic, you would get the same sq no matter what source you were using as long as you were externally amplifying the system. This is not true.

As far as your comment eggy, you are blindly following people on here without real understanding of what is going on.

[eggyhustles 33]

As far as your comment eggy, you are blindly following people on here without real understanding of what is going on.

Ya

i'm sure that's it...

[///M5 2,833]

Actually no. My whole point is that at lower volumes an amplifier WILL NOT make one damn bit of difference. Yes, at higher volumes, an amp will allow you to have better sq. My hu with paper components will go louder than I want to listen to them before it starts "producing mad noise." Sources vary, so while mine is capable of doing this (clarion), another hu (sony xplode or OEM unit) with the same exact speakers cannot. Based on your logic, you would get the same sq no matter what source you were using as long as you were externally amplifying the system. This is not true.

As far as your comment eggy, you are blindly following people on here without real understanding of what is going on.

So for the poster on the other site with a Crower stage 3 wanting a little more out of his headunit you truly think this is the case?

Let's look at this objectively. That car is going to have a noise floor in the 85dB range. In order to have ANY acoustic separation you need to be 10dB > than the background noise. This puts us at 95dB which will be a level that is not "more" per his request, but either way we'll use it. A normal set of speakers is around 88dB efficient. To reach 95dB we will need to be putting >4w to the speakers to get them there. So at this "low" volume you really think that a h/u will sound just like an amplifier? Obviously not. Go to Best Buy and listen to a $200 boombox at 4w and then listen to a $200 amp at 4w and tell me there is no difference.

No where did I even come close to saying that there would be NO improvement with a different source, just that it fundamentally isn't the reason for sounding bad. The amplifiers in h/u's are a complete joke, and this isn't at all about output but about quality. Dynamic capability, headroom, components that don't color the sound, and a decent power supply are all required for "SQ" but with your experience this should really be obvious to you already...that is unless you've never done a comparison and are blindly recommending what you have and not what you have experienced.

Eggy may not understand, but at least he is trying to by actually reading things from people that do. I can't say the same about you.