New Setup, Starting from Zero. Tips Welcomed!

[mjmarovi 8]

don't worry about the BTL's cancelling out low notes. you probably want to let your BTL's play up to 80hz at the highest. let your component speakers you get handle the rest from there. I did not list anything close to 500 dollars.

can't really tell you what to buy as you opinion of sound differs form mine or the next guy's.

IMO for the money, the Image Dynamics, Alpine Type X, Polk Momo's, and CDT HD series can all be found in the 200 some dollar range, and are all great high quality speakers.

[slim142 9]

I like the Alpine Type Xs

Also, you mention only 80hz and below for BTLs. That means, everything else from ~100hz and up, is all about the components right? Even front speakers?

What I mean with BTL canceling was that I want loud and good components so my mids and highs are clear and are not lost with the boom boom of the BTLs. Thats why I want good components too.

[jcarter1885 994]

I like the Alpine Type Xs

Also, you mention only 80hz and below for BTLs. That means, everything else from ~100hz and up, is all about the components right? Even front speakers?

What I mean with BTL canceling was that I want loud and good components so my mids and highs are clear and are not lost with the boom boom of the BTLs. Thats why I want good components too.

Well get ready to spend some money on some good components, also make sure that you get deadener for the doors. Yeah you can cross your subs from 80Hz on down and the components from80/100Hz on up. Just my .02

[slim142 9]

You are right, they are pretty expensive at amazon. However, I just checked the website (http://www.alpine-usa.com/US-en/products/series-c.php?category=SPKR) and they dont have anything but 5 1/4 and 6 1/2 components in the X series. I thought they had the full set.

What should I do in case the car needs 6x9 in the back or 6x8?

[slim142 9]

I just finished checking Diamond Audio and they dont seem to have 6x9 or 6x8 either. Whats going on here?

[KU40 173]

Manufacturers know that most people who choose those higher-end component sets don't use rear fill. Plus they don't want to "dumb down" the components to make them into a coaxial.

[slim142 9]

Manufacturers know that most people who choose those higher-end component sets don't use rear fill. Plus they don't want to "dumb down" the components to make them into a coaxial.

I thought when it came to components, the rear ones were actually the good ones? Since the cone is bigger and you can have 3-way speakers.

So according to you, 2 pairs of 61/2 Type X for front and back should be no problem at all right? Just get an adapter to fit them in whatever fit you have in that car

[KU40 173]

Manufacturers know that most people who choose those higher-end component sets don't use rear fill. Plus they don't want to "dumb down" the components to make them into a coaxial.

I thought when it came to components, the rear ones were actually the good ones? Since the cone is bigger and you can have 3-way speakers.

So according to you, 2 pairs of 61/2 Type X for front and back should be no problem at all right? Just get an adapter to fit them in whatever fit you have in that car

Quite the opposite in fact. There are many advantages of components over coaxials, including but not limited to:

No hole in the cone of the mid for the tweeter tower

Easily movable and mounting tweeter to a more favorable position for imaging

1,000 times better crossover. Compenent sets come with crossovers which house lowpass crossovers for the mid and highpass crossovers for the tweeter, often 2nd order (12 db/octave). All that coaxials MIGHT come with is a little capacitor for the tweeter, giving it a -6db slope. The mid runs full range.

Three-way coaxials are even worse. Now you have three speakers playing the same frequencies, because, again, the woofer and "mid" will have no crossovers on them.

Ability to biamp the tweeter and mid in a component set.

Also, larger cone in the case of a 6x9 is not favorable to the smaller, round 6.5". You will not find a person on this site who would favor an oval cone.

You could run components in the back if you really wanted to. You'd just have to fabricate a conversion baffle as you said.

[slim142 9]

Wait im kinda lost here (sorry, havent done much research on speakers as I did with subs)

So components are the round ones (5 1/4 and 6 1/2) and coaxials are the oval ones?

Yeah I have noticed coaxials have this caps behind the oval. I never understood in detailed what those 6db, 12db and 24db slopes meant or what are they for (neither for the subwoofer ones, Im missing info there).

But I got the main idea here. anything but 5 1/4 and 6 1/2s are garbage and shouldnt be used. Wow, this forum keeps teaching me a lot of stuff everyday.

[mjmarovi 8]

Wait im kinda lost here (sorry, havent done much research on speakers as I did with subs)

So components are the round ones (5 1/4 and 6 1/2) and coaxials are the oval ones?

Yeah I have noticed coaxials have this caps behind the oval. I never understood in detailed what those 6db, 12db and 24db slopes meant or what are they for (neither for the subwoofer ones, Im missing info there).

But I got the main idea here. anything but 5 1/4 and 6 1/2s are garbage and shouldnt be used. Wow, this forum keeps teaching me a lot of stuff everyday.

alright, gotta little lesson for ya.

component means "piece by piece" so the tweeter, crossover, and mid-bass or mid-range are all mounted or wired independently. Each has speaker wire running to it, via the crossover or directly through an amplifier using a passive crossover, which I won't get into passive as you are not in that stage of understanding yet.

so for now, take component as a piece by piece and coaxial as everything being mounted together as one unit.

and the 2-way, 3-way, 4-way, just means how many drivers to make up the set, so a tweeter and mid-bass is a 2-way, tweeter, midrange, mid-bass, 3-way, etc...

components are much better quality not because of being "round", but because they are piece by piece so each component, the mid-bass, tweeter, are only playing the octaves (frequency ranges) that they are designed for.

6,12,18,24,36,48 db slopes just mean how steep or how sharply the crossover filters out the frequencies at the crossover point.

for example: if you set a low pass crossover on a subwoofer (low pass meaning the frequencies above the setting will be filtered out) at 80hz. with a 6 db slow, the frequencies above 80 hz are filtered with 6 db less signal. 12 db, 12 db less signal, and 18 db, 18 db less signal. this is kinda relative as most crossovers are more gradual at the crossover point, and not exactly at that frequency. this is why when say crossing over a mid-bass at 100 hz high-pass so that frequencies below 100hz are filtered, those lower frequencies can still be heard at a 6 db slope just not as loud, and 12 db even less noticeable, and 18db almost gone, and 24 db nearly eliminates them. only real high-end digital xovers or custom built passives will have slopes steeper than 24 as it is for the most part unnecessary.

now that the lesson for the day is out of the way, the reason most high-end companies do not make speakers that would normally fit in the rear is because they know that people that purchase their speakers are looking for true SQ. In sound quality think of creating a sound stage in your vehicle. if you are at a concert, the sound comes form the stage in front of you, not behind you. therefore eliminating the purpose or need for speakers in the rear deck as there is essentially no such thing as "rear fill". so concentrate funds on a nice set of components for the front powered by a good amp.

[slim142 9]

Omg marovi

After reading your post I feel so educated

Thanks for clarying that slope thing. So so so so helpful!!! And yes, that concert example was so easy to understand. Now I know why S-M-D also focused on the front doors and didnt spend much time on the rear. No wonder...

Thanks a million bro!

EDIT: One last question about my current system. So now that I understand that slope thing and considering I only have a 12inch sub, should I set my subsonic on 24db? I think I have it there already. Since I doubt a 12inch can hit anything lower than 20hz, maybe I should just leave my subsonic filter in 20hz with 24db. And for my Low Pass Filter, leave it at 100hz and set slope to 12db. Does that sound reasonable?

Edited December 12, 2009 by slim142

[jcarter1885 994]

Wait im kinda lost here (sorry, havent done much research on speakers as I did with subs)

So components are the round ones (5 1/4 and 6 1/2) and coaxials are the oval ones?

Yeah I have noticed coaxials have this caps behind the oval. I never understood in detailed what those 6db, 12db and 24db slopes meant or what are they for (neither for the subwoofer ones, Im missing info there).

But I got the main idea here. anything but 5 1/4 and 6 1/2s are garbage and shouldnt be used. Wow, this forum keeps teaching me a lot of stuff everyday.

alright, gotta little lesson for ya.

component means "piece by piece" so the tweeter, crossover, and mid-bass or mid-range are all mounted or wired independently. Each has speaker wire running to it, via the crossover or directly through an amplifier using a passive crossover, which I won't get into passive as you are not in that stage of understanding yet.

so for now, take component as a piece by piece and coaxial as everything being mounted together as one unit.

and the 2-way, 3-way, 4-way, just means how many drivers to make up the set, so a tweeter and mid-bass is a 2-way, tweeter, midrange, mid-bass, 3-way, etc...

components are much better quality not because of being "round", but because they are piece by piece so each component, the mid-bass, tweeter, are only playing the octaves (frequency ranges) that they are designed for.

6,12,18,24,36,48 db slopes just mean how steep or how sharply the crossover filters out the frequencies at the crossover point.

for example: if you set a low pass crossover on a subwoofer (low pass meaning the frequencies above the setting will be filtered out) at 80hz. with a 6 db slow, the frequencies above 80 hz are filtered with 6 db less signal. 12 db, 12 db less signal, and 18 db, 18 db less signal. this is kinda relative as most crossovers are more gradual at the crossover point, and not exactly at that frequency. this is why when say crossing over a mid-bass at 100 hz high-pass so that frequencies below 100hz are filtered, those lower frequencies can still be heard at a 6 db slope just not as loud, and 12 db even less noticeable, and 18db almost gone, and 24 db nearly eliminates them. only real high-end digital xovers or custom built passives will have slopes steeper than 24 as it is for the most part unnecessary.

now that the lesson for the day is out of the way, the reason most high-end companies do not make speakers that would normally fit in the rear is because they know that people that purchase their speakers are looking for true SQ. In sound quality think of creating a sound stage in your vehicle. if you are at a concert, the sound comes form the stage in front of you, not behind you. therefore eliminating the purpose or need for speakers in the rear deck as there is essentially no such thing as "rear fill". so concentrate funds on a nice set of components for the front powered by a good amp.

Dont mean to thread jack OP, but couldnt you just run the midbass speakers on low pass up to lets say 500Hz or so an have a high pass filter(sub sonic filter on sax-125.2) cut them off at 100Hz. Thanks

[mjmarovi 8]

jay-cee, what do you mean run mid-bass up to 500 hz?

1) don't know what he is going to run yet

2) is he looking at a simple passive setup, not active, only case that crossover frequency would ever be used is in a 3-way active setup, far from anything this guy is looking to do.

if you were to set a LP Xover at 500 hz on a passive set of components, then you would eliminate 90 percent of the music.

No thread jack though, you kept it relavent.

I am assuming you meant to say something a little different though.

[jcarter1885 994]

Oh I see you are talking about components I thought you meant midbass in active setup, my bad excuse my last post.

[KU40 173]

Wait im kinda lost here (sorry, havent done much research on speakers as I did with subs)

So components are the round ones (5 1/4 and 6 1/2) and coaxials are the oval ones?

Yeah I have noticed coaxials have this caps behind the oval. I never understood in detailed what those 6db, 12db and 24db slopes meant or what are they for (neither for the subwoofer ones, Im missing info there).

But I got the main idea here. anything but 5 1/4 and 6 1/2s are garbage and shouldnt be used. Wow, this forum keeps teaching me a lot of stuff everyday.

I just said coaxial for the back because most of the time rear speakers are 6x9's. Which are oval cones. But coaxials can come in round cones as well (5.25", 6.5", etc.).

Also, a 12" sub can play below 20 hz. Depending on the sub and enclosure it can be very pronounced in fact. Size of speaker does not always dictate frequency range, especially in subs. As for where to set the subsonic filter, that is dependent on the enclosure. If you have a ported box you want to set the subsonic a few hz below the tuning frequency. You don't need a subsonic with a sealed box.

[mjmarovi 8]

unless you are doing true SQ and listening to true SQ music that has true "lows" there is no need to not have your subsonic on. even in a sealed enclosure, the average human ear can't even pick up frequencies below 20hz, and since in 90% of music there is no frequency below ~32hz being used, letting your sub play that low is only wasting power your amplifier could be using for the frequencies that are more profound and that you are actually trying to reproduce.

[KU40 173]

If there are no notes in a song below 32 hz, how could it be wasting amplifier power? It wouldn't be playing anything below 32 hz then anyways.

[mjmarovi 8]

it is not very audible, I will say that....

[slim142 9]

I see

So I guess is fine leaving my Subsonic at 20Hz with 24db slope and my Low Pass Filter at 100Hz with 12db slope right?

I was about to set my subsonic to 18hz 12db and Low Pass to 100hz 0db (off). I guess I wont touch anything now.

[slim142 9]

Guys

I have finally finished saving some money and I can start buying the first part. I realized that buying the sub would not be the best way to go since I wouldnt have an amplifier, battery, alternator or big 3 to put it to use. So the sub is not something to consider for now.

On the other side, we have the amplifier (Sundown 2000D) which I just realized it gives 1000watts RMS @ 2ohms and thats exactly what my Sub runs at (My Pioneer is a Dual 4ohm 1000watts RMS). So I was thinking that I could finally throw away that crappy Sony amplifier that I have and put this one instead. I would be BTL-Ready and I can have it in use powering my Pioneer TS-W3002D4.

But before I purchase it I want to make sure Im not doing anything crazy here

1) I currently have my Sony amp with 4 gauge Rockford cabling, the Sundown needs 1/0 gauge. Is there anyway I can use the Sundown with my current 4 gauge power and ground cables? - If so, will the power and ground cables work good enough or will they have a big negative impact in the system? (idk stress in the amp or electrical system or inefficiency anywhere? idk much about this)

2) I only have stock car battery and stock alternator (Ford Expedition 2007), the Sundown is 1000 watts RMS @ 2 ohms (just 100 watts more than the Sony [considering the sony is really giving 900 watts rms] ), will the car be ok with the Sundown? So far with the Sony, Ive only had a dead battery but that doesnt worry me much. What would worry me is the alternator and the car electrical system in general.

Thanks for your help.

[KU40 173]

You can run the sundown with the 4 gauge with the Pioneer sub. You're only getting 1000 watts then, and 4 gauge for 1000 watts is pretty common. But by the time you get the new sub and lower the impedance at the amp to 1 ohm, you should have that replaced with 1/0 gauge.

Your truck should be fine with the Sundown. Nothing is really going to change between it and the Sony as far as the electrical system is concerned. If you play the stereo a lot with the car off with the Sundown in, you're going to drain the battery the same way as with the Sony.

[slim142 9]

I see, well I will definitely not play the system with the car off thats for sure.

Now, I will need a DMM to set my gain because I have no idea where to set it without a DMM. I know is 44.72 from the formula, but where in the knob would that be... and I dont want to blow my Pioneer since its the only thing I got. Should I leave it halfway until I get the DMM? or less?

Now, what in the world is a Phase Shift???? Never seen that before in amps. Well, idk if Sony amps can really be considered amps lol.

Also, I was asking myself this last night. What does the bass knob control? Bass Boost, Gain or what? what am I missing here?

Finally, will I need to change the 4-gauge terminal to a 1/0 one (for both power and ground) or will the sundown work straight with 4-gauge terminals?

[jcarter1885 994]

I see, well I will definitely not play the system with the car off thats for sure.

Now, I will need a DMM to set my gain because I have no idea where to set it without a DMM. I know is 44.72 from the formula, but where in the knob would that be... and I dont want to blow my Pioneer since its the only thing I got. Should I leave it halfway until I get the DMM? or less?

Now, what in the world is a Phase Shift???? Never seen that before in amps. Well, idk if Sony amps can really be considered amps lol.

Also, I was asking myself this last night. What does the bass knob control? Bass Boost, Gain or what? what am I missing here?

Finally, will I need to change the 4-gauge terminal to a 1/0 one (for both power and ground) or will the sundown work straight with 4-gauge terminals?

Leave the phase at 0 degrees, the knob controls the gain at the level it is at on the amp (maximum to minimum). You will be fine with the 4 gauge wire for now, then when you get some free cash then purchase you some 1/0AWG for the amp later. First I would also suggest that you do the Big 3 ASAP in 1/0AWG wire. Dont use the bass boost on amp or headunit either.

[slim142 9]

Leave the phase at 0 degrees, the knob controls the gain at the level it is at on the amp (maximum to minimum). You will be fine with the 4 gauge wire for now, then when you get some free cash then purchase you some 1/0AWG for the amp later. First I would also suggest that you do the Big 3 ASAP in 1/0AWG wire. Dont use the bass boost on amp or headunit either.

Ok, Phase Shift & Bass Boost at 0 (completely off).

Bass Knob controls gain. So, its fine if I leave my gain at 50% (12:00 o'clock) and use the knob to play the subwoofer just when I need it.

No need to change terminals from 4 to 1/0, good cause that saves me some work (Dont get me wrong, Im pretty busy now not that I dont wanna do it).

Big 3, Alt and Batt will have to come later, but they will come dont worry

Well if there is anything else I should know please post it now. I don't want to rush so I will probably be ordering the amp tonight. Any comments/tips will still be welcomed!

[KU40 173]

There is nothing wrong with using the phase shift. That is just used to match the phase of the subwoofer with your interior speakers. It does not boost or cut the signal in any way. In fact I would recommend you play with it, turning it every which way while the whole stereo is playing. That way you can get an idea of what it does and can set it where you want it. You'll notice that the beat of the sub will move from hitting at the same time as the interior speakers to seemingly being late hitting in step with the interior speakers as you turn the knob. You'll want to adjust the phase so that they hit the note at the same time.

As for the gain, you cannot arbitrarily set it at 12:00. You may get full power at only 9:00 depending on the input voltage from the RCAs, and you may be into clipping at 12:00 in that case. The thing I do is just turn the head unit up to the maximum you listen to the interior speakers, then turn the amp gain up until the sub starts sounding funny or stops getting louder, then back the gain off a tad. You can set it with a DMM if you want, but it can be simpler.

What do you mean change terminals from 4 gauge to 1/0? Are you talking about the ring terminals on the battery? Those will have to be changed. You can't pull the 4 gauge wire out of it and still use it. 1/0 wire won't fit into it.