SQ Three Way Front Stage

[abmoore 8]

I have to decided to just go with a front stage in my car instead of a set of components for the front and the rear. I am thinking of a 3 way because I have my subs crossed at 60 Hz and want a little more midbass. I am going for an SQ setup and listen to everything, but I generally like heavier midbass, warm midrange, and softer highs. I have a 2004 Tahoe with an Alpine IVA-W505 up front with a Audiocontrol DQXS for when I can run active. I have eDead 120 and SS Damplifier Pro for damping and the subs are 4 ED 13Av.2s ported, tuned to 32 Hz, on an USAmps Ax3200de. The electrical is a 300 Amp Alt., 0 AWG, RF 10 Farad Cap, and 4 Deka Intimidators. I plan on using a Zapco REF 1000.4 for the mids and tweeters, and either a Helix A4, Genesis Dual Mono, or Zapco REF 750.2 for the midbass.

I am planning on using Seas Lotus RW220 for the mid bass.

I can't decide on which mid or tweeter to use and would like some suggestions. I have looked at the Seas Lotus RW120, Peerless' (not sure which ones), Scanspeaks, Daytons, and Morel CDM-88s for the mids. I am still researching and trying to listen to different tweeters but so far the Seas Lotus RW27fs and Vifas have caught my attention.

Price is not a huge concern because I will be buying the parts over time but lower is always better.

Thanks for the help.

[mjmarovi 8]

Hybrid Audio Technologies FTW!! I absolutely love my hybrids, did a lot of research, their response curves are unreal. L1v2 tweets, you can run as low as 2800 hz all day long. IMO the some of the cleanest drivers out there. others that are also high-end include the scanspeak and seas that you mentioned, and above them I would be DLS iridium and Eton. for the amps, if you are already going with a zapco 1000.4 than just go with the zapco 2 channel, they make outstanding amplifiers. I mean the genesis dual mono IMO is probably the highest quality amp you listed but the zapco are right up there.

currently I am using hybrid legatia series 4" mids, their high-pass x-over point depends on how much power you are trying to push to them, but they can handle quite a bit even down to 100-120 hz. I have them naturally rolling off on the high end.

morel is also another great company, as is dynaudio.

I mean really if you stick to the higher-end lines from dynaudio, eton, scanspeak, seas, morel, rainbow, dls, you can't go wrong. I personally buy American when I can, and IMO right now American has proven themselves so i stick to hybrid.

[mjmarovi 8]

oh, and do you plan on mounting mids/tweets on or off axis?

[abmoore 8]

oh, and do you plan on mounting mids/tweets on or off axis?

I haven't had anything in this car other than components mounted in the lower door so I plan on trying a few configurations, guess the angle depends whether the placement is in the door or not right, or how it sounds there?

And what were the prices of the hybrid audios?

Oh btw, dunno if it makes a difference, but I will be using an RTA to help me get my desired response. So how important is the initial flat response of the speaker when the placements in the car have such a large impact on the response anyway? Just easier considering its a three way front stage?

Thanks.

[mjmarovi 8]

flatter responses always make it easier to tune, and still helps a lot even though conditions change in car. I personally have not made any eq changes...yet only xover changes and it sounds fantastic! I know a lot ppl that have used L4 mids and said they hardly even touched the eq.

www.the12volt.com besides an authorized dealer or direct from hybrid audio is the only choice for purchase. Prices are same as buying direct from Hybrid last I checked. Doors are really not great placement for an SQ setup. actually they are about the worst. for mid-bass only playing up into the ~100's it's OK, but mids/tweets are much better in kickpanels or pillars

[///M5 2,833]

Those are REALLY spendy for just midbasses. I'd think about focusing your $$ on the install instead.

In a 3 way there is no reason to cross the tweet at 2800Hz, counter productive if you ask me.

What are your mounting locations and your plan? We really need to know this before offering drivers.

[mjmarovi 8]

Those are REALLY spendy for just midbasses. I'd think about focusing your $$ on the install instead.

In a 3 way there is no reason to cross the tweet at 2800Hz, counter productive if you ask me.

What are your mounting locations and your plan? We really need to know this before offering drivers.

the tweeter xover point really has to do with the midranges ability, and it's output in that range from wherever is it mounted. I agree Hybrid mid-bass drivers, the L6's and L8's as amazing as they are, are also quite pricey. the midranges and tweeters I feel are well worth the price and def. not outrageous.

the lotus mid-bass should be quite amazing, not really sure how well they would play up to 2khz, but if they play up to 2khz cleanly, you could get a pair of the hybrid proL1 tweets and only go 2 way, just an option, but 3-ways are pretty sick when pulled off properly.

so lets get some info, would it be possible for you to take pics of possible mounting locations in your vehicle? ideally speaking you want less than a 16" difference in distance from left and right speakers from the listening position. or if you can't accomplish that, then as close as you can get. that's why doors are horrible cause right door is so much further away than left door. lol

also, what price range are we looking at? I know those seas aren't cheap so I see you are willing to invest, that's good just want to make sure we don't go too crazy. also is this going to be a SQ competition goal or just daily SQ goal?

[abmoore 8]

Those are REALLY spendy for just midbasses. I'd think about focusing your $$ on the install instead.

In a 3 way there is no reason to cross the tweet at 2800Hz, counter productive if you ask me.

What are your mounting locations and your plan? We really need to know this before offering drivers.

the tweeter xover point really has to do with the midranges ability, and it's output in that range from wherever is it mounted. I agree Hybrid mid-bass drivers, the L6's and L8's as amazing as they are, are also quite pricey. the midranges and tweeters I feel are well worth the price and def. not outrageous.

the lotus mid-bass should be quite amazing, not really sure how well they would play up to 2khz, but if they play up to 2khz cleanly, you could get a pair of the hybrid proL1 tweets and only go 2 way, just an option, but 3-ways are pretty sick when pulled off properly.

so lets get some info, would it be possible for you to take pics of possible mounting locations in your vehicle? ideally speaking you want less than a 16" difference in distance from left and right speakers from the listening position. or if you can't accomplish that, then as close as you can get. that's why doors are horrible cause right door is so much further away than left door. lol

also, what price range are we looking at? I know those seas aren't cheap so I see you are willing to invest, that's good just want to make sure we don't go too crazy. also is this going to be a SQ competition goal or just daily SQ goal?

This is a SQ daily driver but I do like it loud. I will get some pics up tomorrow if I can. I will put them anywhere and I have plenty of space being that it is a tahoe.

And I was planning on crossing the midbass a little lower than 2k so maybe a little beefier mid would be good? Not sure on that though. The 16" may be hard to do but there is always a way! And this will be an investment. I like doing my research ahead of time, and getting something I can play around with for a long time.

Thanks

[mjmarovi 8]

I have seen it in Tahoe's before which worked well, the mid-bass was in the kick, and the mids/tweets in the dash. pillars aren't bad either, but dash gives a little better staging.

[///M5 2,833]

I'd NEVER use a 6" as a midrange in a 3 way, even a 4" can be a compromise. Depends on your real goals though. Saying SQ and then loud has me wondeirng.

[mjmarovi 8]

I'd NEVER use a 6" as a midrange in a 3 way, even a 4" can be a compromise. Depends on your real goals though. Saying SQ and then loud has me wondeirng.

no reason to have a 6" play up that high, but it can add reinforcement. and what are you talking about a 4" can be a compromise...compromise what?

a 6 would be the mid-bass, and you can have that driver play as high as you want as long as it has the ability to do so in a clean manner with a decent response curve in that octave.

[jcarter1885 995]

I'd NEVER use a 6" as a midrange in a 3 way, even a 4" can be a compromise. Depends on your real goals though. Saying SQ and then loud has me wondeirng.

I think people have a misunderstanding of SQ (loud will never be part of SQ, not saying they cant but thats not the way you describe SQ). I dont know what SQ means but I know what loud means and that will give you the least SQ results.

[///M5 2,833]

IMO it is always best to have one driver play as much of the frequency spectrum as possible. 4's regularly have a hard time with this.

[mjmarovi 8]

IMO it is always best to have one driver play as much of the frequency spectrum as possible. 4's regularly have a hard time with this.

you are right, one driver playing as much of the spectrum is good, which is why 4" mids often are a much better choice than 3 or 2 mids because 4's, especially high-end ones can cover the bottom octaves of the vocals into the mid 100's. 3" mids often can only play into the ~250 hz range which leaves the lower-end of the male vocals being shared by the mid-bass driver. what you are saying about 4" mids being compromises, makes no sense with your argument.

My Legatia 4's for example at even higher power levels can play from 125hz, and have no need to even cross them over on the high-end. their flat response covers from ~120 hz up to 17khz. and when doing more easy listening, I even cross them as low as 80 hz. of course this an exception, and the Legatia 4 has proven to be disputably the best 4" midrange on the market. still any decent 4" mid will easily cover from ~200 hz up through 4-5khz, where ~4khz is a very common xover point for tweeters, and if anything a little higher than most.

[///M5 2,833]

If you compare the L4 with the scan 12m, you will no longer be interested in the L4. Now figure out how to mount them in your dash up high....not so easy forcing you to compromise.

[mjmarovi 8]

If you compare the L4 with the scan 12m, you will no longer be interested in the L4. Now figure out how to mount them in your dash up high....not so easy forcing you to compromise.

no, the 12m doesn't have shit on the L4 I promise you. the 12m has nowhere near the same Q as the L4, nowhere near the power capablities, can't play as low, can't play as high, and has a rainbow response curve as do most midranges out there, not a flat response. not to mention it's still a very pricey driver.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Track record & proven performance > hype & high prices.

[mjmarovi 8]

Track record & proven performance > hype & high prices.

Thank you denim, I assume by track record and proven performance you are speaking of Hybrid and the huge amount of trophies and SQ champions that have used the products, and how they were designed with the utmost of critical care by one of, if not the best guy in the business when it comes to SQ.

hype is something not proven, Hybrid is proven, the high prices of premium eton, scanspeak, rainbows, focals, dynaudio, that is more hype than anything. I will gladly spend 1k on a full 3-way set from hybrid over the thousands of dollars in which their competitors charge for products that are claimed to even compete.

[abmoore 8]

Ok, I think loud was just a subjective description. Maybe just higher quality at my normal listening level if that makes sense, still not sure if thats SQ, but I'm sure with that amount of power it should be loud enough.

So are you guys saying the lotus 220s may not be a good choice for an 8? And since I know its hard to say one speaker is better than another, especially at those high caliber of brands and reputations, can you say some of the advantages and disadvantages?

As for the the placement of the drivers, 8s should be in kickpanels, mids in the dash and tweets in the pillars? Kind of the jist I am getting. And I figured out I do not have my camera at my house... I don't know where it is so it may be until tomorrow until I can get pics.

thanks.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Track record & proven performance > hype & high prices.

Thank you denim, I assume by track record and proven performance you are speaking of Hybrid and the huge amount of trophies and SQ champions that have used the products, and how they were designed with the utmost of critical care by one of, if not the best guy in the business when it comes to SQ.

hype is something not proven, Hybrid is proven, the high prices of premium eton, scanspeak, rainbows, focals, dynaudio, that is more hype than anything. I will gladly spend 1k on a full 3-way set from hybrid over the thousands of dollars in which their competitors charge for products that are claimed to even compete.

Countless other companies have multitudes more trophies, but it does not matter. As winning trophies based off subjective scores means very little in the real world. Especially when install and set up is far more important. Exactly the same as people trying to call drifting a sport. Not to mention, in reality, very few customers actually care about SQ trophies. In addition, supporting a company who has an employee join up under a fake name pretending to be a customer to push product is not a quality choice in my eyes.

[mjmarovi 8]

Track record & proven performance > hype & high prices.

Thank you denim, I assume by track record and proven performance you are speaking of Hybrid and the huge amount of trophies and SQ champions that have used the products, and how they were designed with the utmost of critical care by one of, if not the best guy in the business when it comes to SQ.

hype is something not proven, Hybrid is proven, the high prices of premium eton, scanspeak, rainbows, focals, dynaudio, that is more hype than anything. I will gladly spend 1k on a full 3-way set from hybrid over the thousands of dollars in which their competitors charge for products that are claimed to even compete.

Countless other companies have multitudes more trophies, but it does not matter. As winning trophies based off subjective scores means very little in the real world. Especially when install and set up is far more important. Exactly the same as people trying to call drifting a sport. Not to mention, in reality, very few customers actually care about SQ trophies. In addition, supporting a company who has an employee join up under a fake name pretending to be a customer to push product is not a quality choice in my eyes.

wasn't aware someone did that, I wouldn't like that too much either. I'm not saying trophies are most important, but Hybrid has only been around for 3 years, and no one else has won as many trophies as they have in that time span. Not sure what companies you are referring to, maybe DLS in early 2000's before Hybrid existed, and those same people that won those trophies now run Hybrid Audio? hmmmm

I like you Denim, and normally you have great input, but on this matter I honestly don't understand what you are trying to accomplish. I am not here to piss anyone off, I simply want to state my case and help the OP in anyway I can.

now getting back to some real help. Loud really is all opinion, I mean some people tell me, "man you should hear the stereo that came with my new car it's pretty nice, loud too!" lol I mean all I can do is laugh. On the other hand some people don't think it's loud unless they can be heard from 5 blocks away.

You seem to want pretty smooth sound, and smooth sound and the speakers that normally produce it are not meant to get loud. that does not mean they don't have the ability to be able to crank it up when you want. those 8's will do great, you could really find something less expensive to do the job if you wanted to, but if you are going for quality over cost then don't compromise. I have already stated what mids are IMO the best out there. Others to look at that I have heard and really like would be Focal K2 Power series, you'll know them when you see the yellow cones. their utopias are overpriced and honestly I'm not a fan of the sound. for tweeters, I love my Legatias from Hybrid, but CDT also makes a couple nice choices for silk domes. DLS, Dynaudio, and Morel also make some awesome tweets, mids too if you want to take a look.

would also help if we knew how much you were looking to spend.

[Impious 1,476]

If you compare the L4 with the scan 12m, you will no longer be interested in the L4. Now figure out how to mount them in your dash up high....not so easy forcing you to compromise.

no, the 12m doesn't have shit on the L4 I promise you.

I would find that a little surprising, especially considering the (admittedly only) Hybrid I've seen objective measurements for wasn't anything particularly special. As a matter of fact, the L3 was bested in that particular case by a ~$30 midrange.

the 12m has nowhere near the same Q as the L4,

With a comment like that I'd question if you even understood Q.

Although, FWIW, the measurements for the 12m on Zaph's site show a Qts of .52 and Fs of 88hz.....pretty darn similar to the advertised T/S of the L4. So how similar their Q's are is going to depend on the actual measured parameters of the L4.....

nowhere near the power capablities,

Reference for this statement? Just off a glance, I couldn't find winding length or layers for both for comparison, but I did find the L4 uses a 25.5mm coil diameter whereas the 12m uses a larger 38mm diameter coil.

Regardless, higher power handling wouldn't inherently make it a "better" driver as power handling is an aspect that doesn't really affect the quality of the sound produced or necessarily indicate the L4 is capable of higher output in and of itself.

can't play as low, can't play as high

Reference for this? Just off a glance I don't see a reason the 12m wouldn't be able to play as low or as high as the L4 within the reasonably intended bandwidth a 4" driver would be used in.

and has a rainbow response curve as do most midranges out there, not a flat response.

Every driver has a "rainbow" response curve in that it falls off on the top and bottom. Here is the measured response of the 12m by Zaph;

http://www.zaphaudio...12M4631G-FR.gif

I'd say that's pretty flat within the passband that a 4" driver would typically be used.

FWIW, here is the FR of the L3 taken by npdang on DIYMA;

http://diymobileaudi...3/legatiafr.JPG

not to mention it's still a very pricey driver.

That we can both agree on.

[mjmarovi 8]

I'm personally not a fan of the L3, it has at rack record of being known for being very install dependent, and requires much more tuning post-install than the L4. you said Q but actually gave the Qms figure which again hurts the 12m. the Qms or moving mass of the L4 is half of that of the 12m.

I have heard both in sponsored team installs that were both top-notch. I spoke with both installers, and also demoed both vehicles. One vehicle was using scanspeak drivers and the other hybrid drivers. the scanspeak driver had a LPF on it at 4khz because it got extremely sharp and unnatural above that range. not a big deal as tweeters are used for that range anyway, but for versatility the L4's ability to play up and through 17khz perfectly clean is an advantage. on the low-end, the 12m drops off pretty hard ~140 hz. and it even struggles at ~160 hz. the 8" drivers used in the scanspeak install were xover at 160 as that was the lowest installer felt was still reproduced efficiently by the scanspeak. the L4 was crossovered down at least to 125 hz in the three team hybrid demo's I got. and one of them had it rolling off naturally on a 12db/slope at 100hz. That is quite impressive for a 4" mid.

i say nowhere near the power capabilites because of audible clarity loss and distortion levels of the 12m at higher volumes. The L4's, although recommended to xover at 140 hz at higher levels remains perfectly clean and clear with even more than the rated 175 watts of power. (note at this volume it is hardly an SQ demo, but does show capabilities of the drivers)

the L4 is the only midrange on the market to stay within 2 db SPL on the response curve within its recommended xover points or frequency response. the scanspeak, like the average midrange varies by 5db. that is a huge difference. the L4 uses a lighter motor structure and larger magnet resulting in less moving mass and higher control. audiblly the results are a quicker smoother response and the ability to play the very high frequencies. in which are really the advantage in an on-axis install where a tweeter could really be optional.

I don't understand why you guys, who to my knowledge, may be wrong and do not want to assume, but to my knowledge are not SQ experts and do not spend much time with SQ.

Hybrid has proven itself as a world class audio driver since the beginning of the company. I did extensive research and had the opportunity to get a few demos from many amazing SQ cars, and in the end I chose Hybrid Audio. I will agree that great sounding speakers and what you think the best sounding speakers is very much personal opinion, which is why I have made several recommendations to the OP. IMO Hybrid is and until I find something better to me the best out there. especially for the money. if you disagree and like something fine, but it is quite obvious I can back up my reasoning as is something I have done my research on.

I will say I find it funny how when Hybrid Audio is a part of the SSA forum it's a great speaker, and now they are not, everytime I mention it someone that is adament SSA has to try and cut them down. I'm not here to try and influence anyone to feel that what I feel is the best they should also, and I don't understand why you guys are seeming to do just that.

BTW: Name what hybrid vehicle any of you have sat in and demoed. Name them, please, I would love to know. I would also love to know what drivers you believe are the best and then show results of any good sized SQ competition in the last few years where they have proven themselves, and dont' give the trophies don't mean anything BS, they aren't everything, but you can def. get an idea of what is worth running and what isn't by going to competitions.

[mjmarovi 8]

oh yes, and can ya'll quit thread-jacking to try and take a jab at me for my opinion for no apparent reason and PM me if you truly have a problem.

[Adrian_D 520]

I'm personally not a fan of the L3, it has at rack record of being known for being very install dependent, and requires much more tuning post-install than the L4. you said Q but actually gave the Qms figure which again hurts the 12m. the Qms or moving mass of the L4 is half of that of the 12m.

I have heard both in sponsored team installs that were both top-notch. I spoke with both installers, and also demoed both vehicles. One vehicle was using scanspeak drivers and the other hybrid drivers. the scanspeak driver had a LPF on it at 4khz because it got extremely sharp and unnatural above that range. not a big deal as tweeters are used for that range anyway, but for versatility the L4's ability to play up and through 17khz perfectly clean is an advantage. on the low-end, the 12m drops off pretty hard ~140 hz. and it even struggles at ~160 hz. the 8" drivers used in the scanspeak install were xover at 160 as that was the lowest installer felt was still reproduced efficiently by the scanspeak. the L4 was crossovered down at least to 125 hz in the three team hybrid demo's I got. and one of them had it rolling off naturally on a 12db/slope at 100hz. That is quite impressive for a 4" mid.

i say nowhere near the power capabilites because of audible clarity loss and distortion levels of the 12m at higher volumes. The L4's, although recommended to xover at 140 hz at higher levels remains perfectly clean and clear with even more than the rated 175 watts of power. (note at this volume it is hardly an SQ demo, but does show capabilities of the drivers)

the L4 is the only midrange on the market to stay within 2 db SPL on the response curve within its recommended xover points or frequency response. the scanspeak, like the average midrange varies by 5db. that is a huge difference. the L4 uses a lighter motor structure and larger magnet resulting in less moving mass and higher control. audiblly the results are a quicker smoother response and the ability to play the very high frequencies. in which are really the advantage in an on-axis install where a tweeter could really be optional.

I don't understand why you guys, who to my knowledge, may be wrong and do not want to assume, but to my knowledge are not SQ experts and do not spend much time with SQ.

Hybrid has proven itself as a world class audio driver since the beginning of the company. I did extensive research and had the opportunity to get a few demos from many amazing SQ cars, and in the end I chose Hybrid Audio. I will agree that great sounding speakers and what you think the best sounding speakers is very much personal opinion, which is why I have made several recommendations to the OP. IMO Hybrid is and until I find something better to me the best out there. especially for the money. if you disagree and like something fine, but it is quite obvious I can back up my reasoning as is something I have done my research on.

I will say I find it funny how when Hybrid Audio is a part of the SSA forum it's a great speaker, and now they are not, everytime I mention it someone that is adament SSA has to try and cut them down. I'm not here to try and influence anyone to feel that what I feel is the best they should also, and I don't understand why you guys are seeming to do just that.

BTW: Name what hybrid vehicle any of you have sat in and demoed. Name them, please, I would love to know. I would also love to know what drivers you believe are the best and then show results of any good sized SQ competition in the last few years where they have proven themselves, and dont' give the trophies don't mean anything BS, they aren't everything, but you can def. get an idea of what is worth running and what isn't by going to competitions.

I don't think anyone tries to cut them down intentionally. Most of the problem lies in the fact that you portray them as the holy grail of speakers, which they are not.