Your input on my component system

[deanmpereira 2]

Well honestly I havn't put alot of thought into the amps yet. Im still not sure on what speakers im going to go with. I figured i might as well wait tell i know exactly what im going run before looking into the amp world. But yes i realize i need to give the amps just as much thinking and money as the speakers. I just figured id kinda look into it after I came to a concrete choice on what speakers im going to run. but all of this will hopefully be done asap. I have the funds just trying to learn as much as possible before making my choice.

and as for the comment on the subs.. as you know im doing all of this to a silverado, and ill have to take some more accurate measurements but i believe 2 12's ported is going to be a little bigger than the space im going to have available. so i could easily do two 10's ported, but 2 12's might be a problem? whats your input on that?

and thanks for the companies i will definitely be taking some time looking into them, should I be looking at the three way systems more so than the two ways? it seems like your a fan of the hybrids personally?

and thanks alot mjmarovl your really helpin me out

so far im liking the clarus, and im liking what hybrid has to say about there product. but i also like the Zapco- competition set for 650, and the morels...

The only input I can put in on this thread is, if you dont have the room for 2-12" ported in the right enclosure then dont do it (too small of a box will choke your subs). Whenever you do look into subs, there are some companies like Sundown who make subs to do well in smaller than normal size boxes, for instance there SA-12"s can be tossed in 3.5ft^3 enclosure after displacements (port, bracing and subs). To get the most out of your subs put them in the right amount of space and you will slam, just my .02

Yea thats why i was considering the Q series because they are for small enclosures as well, Ill do a little more poking around but from the looking I did I thought the Q's were recommended for the smallest enclosures comparably speaking.

Do you feel two 12's sealed or two 10's ported would have better output?

[mjmarovi 8]

it would be close, very install dependent, but two 10's would probably be slightly louder. Wasn't even thinking when I said ported though about your truck lol. It is difficult to build a ported wedge box behind seats. It will still get pretty loud to go sealed, especially with a 2000 watt amp.

as for going 2-way or 3-way, that's really up to you and how much install work you want to do. I think if you go 2-way and put the mid-woofer in the kicks and the tweets in the dash or even pillars you should be quite happy. they do make pre-fab kicks for your truck, should be able to find them on www.crutchfield.com even ***** ***** is using them.

the hybrid clarus are great sounding speakers, and the Morel's will be great SQ speakers as well, the Zapco's will be able to handle more power though and may do better for ya when you want to really crank it up.

[Adrian_D 520]

Passive & 3 way shouldn't ever occur IMO.

oh really? and I suppose now you are going to tell me the best sounding cars in the world are active and not passive? haha sorry, but I have some strong foundations on this stuff, maybe you would like me to grab a couple world class SQ guys to chime in?

oh, and I would also love for you to tell Scott Buwalda, the godfather of Sound Quality (before Hybrid even existed) that the car that won back to back SQ world championships with kick-panel installs has problem with stage height! LOL I would love to see you try tell him that.

Kicks work great because they are further away from you, and the distance difference from left and right drivers is very minimal, so sound waves hit you at the same time resulting in the affect of the drivers sounding as if they are far in front of you, and present a beautiful stage that is at eye level (ear-level) and also great stage width as that is also the widest spot in the vehicle.

In SUV's many times kicks are even that much better because the dash overhand doesn't interfere. however, trucks are much wider than cars and usually a couple m/s t. corr. fixes the problem where it feels as if you are sitting on the left side of the stage from the driver's seat.

In a car, getting a passive set to sound right is a pain in the behind compared to an active set and it implies building new crossovers any time you want to modify something.

I personally know a home audio nut who tried a passive 3-way set in his car, very picky person, and he eventually quite and went active.

[mjmarovi 8]

never said it was easy, did your friend build his passives or purchase some factory one's? I have seen some amazing custom built passives, and their clarity truly is top-notch. of course I personally am not on that level so I stick to active, cause yes it is much easier to make changes to xover points, eq work is still the same whether your setup is active or passive, but of course if you want to change xover points then you must re-build the passive. that's why you normally only see custom built passives in builds where the installer knows their vehicle, drivers, and what they want quite precisely.

[Adrian_D 520]

never said it was easy, did your friend build his passives or purchase some factory one's? I have seen some amazing custom built passives, and their clarity truly is top-notch. of course I personally am not on that level so I stick to active, cause yes it is much easier to make changes to xover points, eq work is still the same whether your setup is active or passive, but of course if you want to change xover points then you must re-build the passive. that's why you normally only see custom built passives in builds where the installer knows their vehicle, drivers, and what they want quite precisely.

Home made, on some utopia 3 way's.

[deanmpereira 2]

So I hear a lot of disagreements with this passive active thing? do you feel that since im not on the level you guys are on that I will be able to tell the difference? should I do more research on a active system? like i said im not really looking for a SQ competition set up you know? Im just looking for something that sounds really good to the average listener. would a pair of those hybrids fit what im looking for? like i stated earlier the idea of just a front stage is kinda new to me. and from things I have previously heard the Premier series was the best.

so i realize that you guys are having some disagreements on whether to run passive or active, but is the difference going to be out of my understanding??? because the passive system seems to be alot easier to run.. and cheaper.

and for the subs.. they will be underneath my seat, not behind it. The silverado is set up different then the Dodge's and fords. there's very little room behind the seats, only enough to mount the amps and stuff. and after looking into it a little more it looks like (without sacrificing foot space) I have about 2 cuft of usable space... I could bring it out a little more and lose some foot space, but it looks like the 12's ported are out of the question. Currently i have two 10's sealed in a .7 cuft box (each chamber, after displacement) but have a little more space available before losing foot space.

thanks guys

[mjmarovi 8]

Home made, on some utopia 3 way's.

not saying he doesn't know what he's talking about, but since it sounds like he was really experimenting trying to see what would sound best in his ride, then starting off building a passive xover was probably not the best idea. I will say those speakers are great, not my favorite, even from Focal, but they are nice and also require a lot of eq work and a very dedicated installer to get them to their full potential. of course the whole point in buying the utopias in the first place is because of the 2500 dollar xovers that come with the set....

back to the OP: I'm sure you will love the hybrids, they will have a little more SQ than the Zapco's, but I will tell you the Zapco's will have ability to be cranked on a little harder. i would def. recommend sticking to a more simple set of components that comes with factory passive xovers.

[///M5 2,833]

Passive & 3 way shouldn't ever occur IMO.

oh really? and I suppose now you are going to tell me the best sounding cars in the world are active and not passive? haha sorry, but I have some strong foundations on this stuff, maybe you would like me to grab a couple world class SQ guys to chime in?

oh, and I would also love for you to tell Scott Buwalda, the godfather of Sound Quality (before Hybrid even existed) that the car that won back to back SQ world championships with kick-panel installs has problem with stage height! LOL I would love to see you try tell him that.

Kicks work great because they are further away from you, and the distance difference from left and right drivers is very minimal, so sound waves hit you at the same time resulting in the affect of the drivers sounding as if they are far in front of you, and present a beautiful stage that is at eye level (ear-level) and also great stage width as that is also the widest spot in the vehicle.

In SUV's many times kicks are even that much better because the dash overhand doesn't interfere. however, trucks are much wider than cars and usually a couple m/s t. corr. fixes the problem where it feels as if you are sitting on the left side of the stage from the driver's seat.

Maybe instead of "grabbing someone" you should think for yourself. You are confused. What part of the audio spectrum actually psycho-acoustically creates vertical cues? I'll give you a hint, if you knew the answer you'd have a different tone in your argument. Here's another hint, really easy way to figure it out in your living room but it might require your eyes and your ears to understand my recommnendation.

I never said kicks suck, but that they aren't a great solution. Kicks can be the better of the compromises, but they will never be the "best" choice. For me great and best are close enough. I would like some clarification though as I am interested in your claim that this is important because they are "further" from you, please explain why you think this is a benefit. And then in another scenario which is possible in a Silverado (like the OP has) how if the distance is the same for speakers at dash height or in the kicks that the kicks are better. And yes they will do one thing better, but it isn't a trade-off that I'd make.

As for the passive 3 way, you are right I should add a qualifier. Passive 3 ways that aren't designed in situ should never occur. Off the shelf setups make WAY too many compromises. The OP I assumed does not have the capability to effectively design them in car.

As for your comment on telling Scott, I don't have to as he already knows. Again a car audio install is about a whole realm of compromises he chose his, but I am sure he also knows better.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

back to the OP: I'm sure you will love the hybrids, they will have a little more SQ than the Zapco's,

How so?

[mjmarovi 8]

back to the OP: I'm sure you will love the hybrids, they will have a little more SQ than the Zapco's,

How so?

they Zapco competition series are build more for power, it's like comparing a Fi BL to a Q. both are great but each is geared toward a different type of install.

It was my understanding the OP was looking for a more simple install. Building a correct a dash for mids/highs pods can be very intensive. Especially when you can purchase pre-fab kick-panels and make minor improvements for great results in that vehicle.

Kick-panels- when I first spoke with Scott when I was looking into Hybrid Audio, I chatted for with for awhile about best scenario for an SQ build, and speaker location, etc...Fort best imaging and overall results he recommended kick-panels. I know you are quite intelligent, and I will admit my two favorite SQ systems were one with a dash install, and the other was an on-axis pillar install. One point if you have to remember about dash installs, (unless on-axis) is that the windshields interferes heavily with tone quality. I don't believe one is a compromise of the other, it really is vehicle dependent. In OP's circumstance he seems to be looking for a more simple approach. so IN THIS CASE IMO a two-pay passive setup with mid-woofer in kicks and tweeters in pillars would be most simple and still have great results. If it easy to do so, then mounting tweeters in dash will work great too.

[///M5 2,833]

back to the OP: I'm sure you will love the hybrids, they will have a little more SQ than the Zapco's,

How so?

they Zapco competition series are build more for power, it's like comparing a Fi BL to a Q. both are great but each is geared toward a different type of install.

It was my understanding the OP was looking for a more simple install. Building a correct a dash for mids/highs pods can be very intensive. Especially when you can purchase pre-fab kick-panels and make minor improvements for great results in that vehicle.

Kick-panels- when I first spoke with Scott when I was looking into Hybrid Audio, I chatted for with for awhile about best scenario for an SQ build, and speaker location, etc...Fort best imaging and overall results he recommended kick-panels. I know you are quite intelligent, and I will admit my two favorite SQ systems were one with a dash install, and the other was an on-axis pillar install. One point if you have to remember about dash installs, (unless on-axis) is that the windshields interferes heavily with tone quality. I don't believe one is a compromise of the other, it really is vehicle dependent. In OP's circumstance he seems to be looking for a more simple approach. so IN THIS CASE IMO a two-pay passive setup with mid-woofer in kicks and tweeters in pillars would be most simple and still have great results. If it easy to do so, then mounting tweeters in dash will work great too.

Even on axis the windshield will influence the response a lot....but what do you think happens in the kicks?

Pre-fab kicks are pretty useless. Crappy aiming, no structure, not sure why you'd recommend them.

At the OP's budget range he can do better than buying some off the shelf stuff and slapping it in some Q logics.

[deanmpereira 2]

I was looking at the pre fab kicks and they did look like they had very little structure, they look the same as the stock kicks just with a place to put the speaker. and the stock ones seem to be extremely weak, I wouldn't feel to happy mounting a pair or 6.5's to that weak plastic.

Is the door really that bad of a place to mount them? being you can mount them to a sturdy baffle, and such it seems like (although not optimal positioning) that after mounting properly in the door that it would be a better placement then sticking it in those thin plastic kicks?

At the OP's budget it seems he can do something more than buying some off the shelf stuff?

so any ideas? I have a lot of information on what not to do... but i feel completely lost now on what to do?

I as of now am looking into a lot of information on mounting the mids? baffle/dampening/ stuff like that. and i feel like the tweeters up against the windshield on the dash/A column are going to be the best for me? and I am currently interested in the Zapco competitions and the Hybrid Clarious.

Am I going down the right track? or do i need to be thinking about something else?

[mjmarovi 8]

I think you are on the right track. nothing really wrong with the Q-logic kicks, you just need to reinforce them before install. yes the aiming isn't perfect, which is important, but I am really trying to help you with a simple install. I do not really know what your capabilities are...if you feel comfortable building kicks yourself, then by all means that is the way to go.

both sets of speakers are great, I can't really tell you what you will be happier with, as I do not know what your perception is of SQ or "loud"

[///M5 2,833]

A well treated door will be better than a Q logic. Hard to give advice currently not understanding what you are willing to go through for the install.

[deanmpereira 2]

Anything that needs to be done to do it right?

[///M5 2,833]

Considering you started out with the idea of lots of tweeters and multiple drivers, we really need to know what you are willing to do for work, what your goals are, listening preferences and so on. No recommendations should occur before then on specific products.

[mjmarovi 8]

Only thing I ever recommend doing for doors if you plan on installing the mid-bass in the doors, and have mids picking up from ~200 hz range. the reasoning for this is so that starting with all the lower tones in the vocals, and higher frequencies are more directional therefore you wont want your speakers in the doors playing above 200 hz as long as you can avoid it. So for a 2-way setup, where the mid-bass is also being used as a mid-range playing to ~3khz then you really want to stay away from the doors.

as far as goals are, it seems you are looking for something is clean, clear, mainly SQ, but also ability to Jam out when you want to. Not screaming heard from a mile away loud, but something that can be turned up on your favorite tunes. that is why I recommended what I did, and why I think you would be very happy with the Hybrid Clarus, or the Zapco Reference. I wouldn't worry about extra dough on the Zapco competition, I really think if you heard the difference you would feel the same way. Now as far as how much SQ you are going to accomplish, that is going to be install dependent.

[deanmpereira 2]

What do you mean by the extra dough on the Zapcos? as in I should get them or I shouldn't?

[mjmarovi 8]

you had mentioned the zapco competition series. those are ~750 a set depending on where you find them. the reference series are ~500 a set. I personally think both are great sets, and it's probably not worth spending that extra money to get their competition series, if you go with zapco that is. that's just my opinion. and same goes for the reference series as I stated before, they would probably take more power and have ability to get loud, but the Hybrids would have a little better quality. it's like comparing a Fi Q sub to a Fi BL, both are great and can sound good on music, but one is built more for quality of music, as other is built for more SPL.

what kind of music do you listen to? if it's a lot of rock, you may like the hybrids better cause the zapco can be a little bright, which is sometimes overbearing on rock music.

[deanmpereira 2]

I listen to alot of everything, Rap and Rock both equally. but maybe the hybrids would be better, generally im not a fan of "bright"

Edited November 13, 2009 by deanmpereira

[///M5 2,833]

Considering you started out with the idea of lots of tweeters and multiple drivers, we really need to know what you are willing to do for work, what your goals are, listening preferences and so on. No recommendations should occur before then on specific products.

This is getting absurd. Again without knowing what you are willing to do or your budget no one should be recommending you anything. For instance if you have $750 for paying someone to do the install and the components I'd allocate at least 2/3's of it to the install. If you are doing it yourself you can shave off the hourly's but you still need to budget for the appropriate deadening and such. A set of $500 is a complete waste of money if they are just bolted into the stock locations, a set of $750 ones would be even worse.

[jcarter1885 994]

Considering you started out with the idea of lots of tweeters and multiple drivers, we really need to know what you are willing to do for work, what your goals are, listening preferences and so on. No recommendations should occur before then on specific products.

This is getting absurd. Again without knowing what you are willing to do or your budget no one should be recommending you anything. For instance if you have $750 for paying someone to do the install and the components I'd allocate at least 2/3's of it to the install. If you are doing it yourself you can shave off the hourly's but you still need to budget for the appropriate deadening and such. A set of $500 is a complete waste of money if they are just bolted into the stock locations, a set of $750 ones would be even worse.

x2, it is more than just picking speakers so take your time and you still need to go out and find dealers in your area so you can listen to them for yourself (you and someone else's preferences are different and what he likes you wont like). Just my .02

[deanmpereira 2]

M5 and Jay cee, I dont think im as knowledgeable in car audio as you guys are giving me credit for, when your asking what are my plans? what am I willing to do? Im not sure what is necessary and what is not necessary, as M5 stated earlier I started this thread with the idea of having two sets of Components one in the front one in the back. I have learned that you guys highly disagree with this. but this as a example of what my previous knowledge was, im not sure on what i need to be looking into on install? so MJ is suggesting something that is alot easier to do.. (although after finished maybe you guys wouldn't be satisfied with the sound of the install, is it something i will be happy with? because like stated earlier this is going to be played around people that are way less knowledgeable than me. let alone you guys)

Ok well Ill throw out what Im planning and you guys can let me know what im missing or need to rethink.

I currently have all four door panels dynomated pretty well. (this was done on my last ill knowledge install) Iv been looking around and plan on getting Butyl rope, closed cell foam, and mass loaded vinyl Barrier from Sounddeadenershowdown from M5's sig. I also plan on cutting out 1/2 mdf baffles. My idea as of now is to obviously install the closed cell foam and mass loaded vinyl Barrier on all door panels and back wall of the truck. then cut out a mdf baffle and mount it with a piece of butyl rope to the pre existing speaker location in my door. I then will obviously mount the speaker to the MDF. (do you think having a small piece of butyl rope in between the speaker and MDF is a good idea?) I am also planning on putting a piece of Egg carton foam behind the speaker if possible (not sure if the window will get in the way when rolled down) I then will mount the tweeter On the dash up against the front window and do a little playing around to see what I like on exact tweeter placement. But as of now thats what im planning. i read that the hybrids ( which i was planning on doing?) do best with a open air baffle.

So thats what im planning so far, maybe im going down a wrong road somewhere? but as for my knowledge is seems that a active system would be to much to learn, and you guys disagree with a 3 way passive system? so iv been planning on just the two way passives. and Im guessing you guys will disagree with the mids in the doors? but that would be the easiest install for me. (i understand easy and best probably dont go together but I can see that my idea of sounding good will be alot different than yours)

So let me know what i need to rethink or maybe theres a option im looking over? but thats my plans as of now. like i said i was planning on doing this asap but have just been putting it off due to the fact that im realizing how little i really know.

and as for checking out speakers, in this area stereo shops are pretty shitty and dont seem to carry alot of this stuff. I heard that there is a place about 2 hours away that has everything.. maybe it would be worth the drive... maybe bigrank916 can chim in on somewhere i dont know of hes from my area.

Edited November 13, 2009 by deanmpereira

[///M5 2,833]

MJ recommended the dash or kicks never the doors, in fact the opposite so I figured if you were following that advice you were in for some serious install work.

Your doors will be fine. Hell that is where I have the drivers in my Silverado. The dash on those trucks SUCKS and I am not a huge kicks fan. My truck is just a beater, but still the only major thing lacking in it is stage height...and yes just like those with kicks I can dial the stage height up with processing but am much more interested in tonality and an accurate response. It is the compromise that I chose mostly in this case based on time and the fact that it is just a boat/snowmobile toter that needed improved tunes. I am running 2 way active, but 2 way passive could be just as effective. You will benefit from some t/a and definitely some eq as well. The great part of the Silvy doors is that they generally are pretty easy to get nice midbass from. You do need to seal up that huge hole in the door though to try to separate the back/front wave from the driver as much as possible. If you do use MDF as a baffle, don't forget to seal it with sanding sealer/paint as the doors in your truck leak like a sieve in a carwash or the rain.

Still re-iterating that the install is the most important part. Personally if I were I wouldn't drop ridiculous coin on drivers, instead I'd focus on buying MLV, deadener, and so on. The best thing for any speaker system is to lower the noise floor of the vehicle. SDS recommendations are spot on, Don is a great guy. If you need clarification on what he states just ask.

[///M5 2,833]

Oh and the 720prs set you originally chose is a great set. The tweeter is a little weak, but conveniently that is about the only thing you can demo on a sound board so give them a listen and if you like the top end go for it. The bottom end will sound WAY better installed in your car. Considering you are putting the tweeters in your door next to the mid you should listen to them on a sound board rather off axis.