Blues Production Sub's. . . . . . . Remember

[///M5 2,833]

I don't hate you, its the internet that wouldn't get me very far. I do despise subjective emotional responses though.

You claim it is easy to get through Ray, since that is in your camp and your interest go for it.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

For a little funny break:

[ssh 924]

For a little funny break:

Trying to ease the situation eh

[jimmy2345 0]

I don't hate you, its the internet that wouldn't get me very far. I do despise subjective emotional responses though.

You claim it is easy to get through Ray, since that is in your camp and your interest go for it.

So now its in our interest to provide parameters? YOU want to see them. YOU are the one stating someones opinion on how the speakers sound doesnt count for anything. We love the speakers and could care less about some lines on a piece of paper.

Drop it, or call Ray and ask him for the parameters YOU are interested in. We obviously dont care enough to ask him.

[Randal Johnson 544]

I don't hate you, its the internet that wouldn't get me very far. I do despise subjective emotional responses though.

You claim it is easy to get through Ray, since that is in your camp and your interest go for it.

So now its in our interest to provide parameters? YOU want to see them. YOU are the one stating someones opinion on how the speakers sound doesnt count for anything. We love the speakers and could care less about some lines on a piece of paper.

Drop it, or call Ray and ask him for the parameters YOU are interested in. We obviously dont care enough to ask him.

dude ?? I try my best to calm everyone down and your gonna get them fired up again ?? thanks alot ...

[Sir-Lancelot 216]

I don't hate you, its the internet that wouldn't get me very far. I do despise subjective emotional responses though.

You claim it is easy to get through Ray, since that is in your camp and your interest go for it.

So now its in our interest to provide parameters? YOU want to see them. YOU are the one stating someones opinion on how the speakers sound doesnt count for anything. We love the speakers and could care less about some lines on a piece of paper.

Drop it, or call Ray and ask him for the parameters YOU are interested in. We obviously dont care enough to ask him.

dude ?? I try my best to calm everyone down and your gonna get them fired up again ?? thanks alot ...

LOL,

No shit.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

It's amusing how some people think some are getting riled up.

[///M5 2,833]

Only because they are, lol. I don't care about the parameters I just am sick of your nonsensical, irrational, subjective ridiculousness.

[Randal Johnson 544]

Yes sir, and thank you for the kind comments on this matter ... You have a good day ...

[jimmy2345 0]

I don't hate you, its the internet that wouldn't get me very far. I do despise subjective emotional responses though.

You claim it is easy to get through Ray, since that is in your camp and your interest go for it.

So now its in our interest to provide parameters? YOU want to see them. YOU are the one stating someones opinion on how the speakers sound doesnt count for anything. We love the speakers and could care less about some lines on a piece of paper.

Drop it, or call Ray and ask him for the parameters YOU are interested in. We obviously dont care enough to ask him.

dude ?? I try my best to calm everyone down and your gonna get them fired up again ?? thanks alot ...

Lol. I could care less about calming people down. I will state my opinion, and if I think something is wrong I will state it. If he wants the parameters, it's not up to you to go get them....it's up to him.

Don't be a pushover.

[ssh 924]

I don't hate you, its the internet that wouldn't get me very far. I do despise subjective emotional responses though.

You claim it is easy to get through Ray, since that is in your camp and your interest go for it.

So now its in our interest to provide parameters? YOU want to see them. YOU are the one stating someones opinion on how the speakers sound doesnt count for anything. We love the speakers and could care less about some lines on a piece of paper.

Drop it, or call Ray and ask him for the parameters YOU are interested in. We obviously dont care enough to ask him.

dude ?? I try my best to calm everyone down and your gonna get them fired up again ?? thanks alot ...

Lol. I could care less about calming people down. I will state my opinion, and if I think something is wrong I will state it. If he wants the parameters, it's not up to you to go get them....it's up to him.

Don't be a pushover.

Yeah man, stand up and fight the man!

[whodat 0]

WHO cares about parameters if it is pleasing to the ears. It's not the computers that listen to the speakers, it is people with EARS and the more ears that listen to them and like it THAT IS WHAT COUNTS, not a bunch of numbers on a piece of paper. Computer programs were written by humans, they themselves can be subjective due to the individual writing the software, and most do not take into account every sinerio in speaker design such as underhung, overhung voice coils, extended pole pieces which change the magnetic field, and so on....

I have heard speakers which qoute beautiful numbers sound sterile, dead and lifeless or as bad as an un-inviting as a pile of horse crap which some seem to dsh out here a lot. Leave the opinions to the ones that have heard the speakers and compared them to other speakers. NOT some egotistical wad that likes to spout numbers and has not listened to the product. Only people that have heard them are capable of making an informed deciision and opinion on if they are good or not.

Here is aqoute from another thread on this site about the products

"I got the pleasure of hearing Cableguy's truck at USACi World Finals this year. It was great to say the very least.

When I first got in his truck, I was expecting to see a processor or a high-end expensive head unit. I saw neither, instead I saw a run of the mill Pioneer H/U and a old looking EQ with a few simple adjustments under it. Soon as I started looking around I started noticing the great craftsmanship in the truck, from the custom Kick panels to house the Blue Car Audio 6.5"s, then the Custom A-Pillar's to house the Blue's Car Audio tweeters.

So, I was a little skeptical at first as the only SQ vehicle I had heard prior was a G8 with Focal Utopia's and the Alpine 701 Processor. Then he started playing music and I was instantly greeted with a well centered sound great warm sound. I was simply in disbelief at how well staged it was for such a simple setup.

After a few songs of showing off the staging and front-stage. He play a song to show off the low end, which was amazing clear and loud for a set of 10"s tuned so low. They caught every note with no issues. I was simply astounded."

[Duran 387]

Did you honestly just say T/S parameter analyzing programs can be biased, and then say you only want to hear the opinions form someone who owns them? Really?

You can make any "junk" speaker sound good in the right installation, you aren't getting the point of thiele/small parameters at ALL.

I'm not saying Blues sounds like junk either. I've never heard any, I would like some parameters to tell me what APPLICATION they are best suited for, and how they will perform in that application. Take a moment to get your panties out of a wad, breathe, take some Midol, and think logically please. Then you may respond.

[Impious 1,476]

First, you need to learn how to operate spell check. If you aren't already using it, download Firefox.....has spell check built in. Works great.

I originally wasn't going to respond as at this point we're . Blues guys aren't saying anything new, important, or informative.......just keep regurgitating the same useless babble, but since I need an excuse to maintain my procrastination of putting up Xmas decorations......

WHO cares about parameters if it is pleasing to the ears.

I do. For several reasons. There's far more to it than this, but just briefly.......First, if I find something pleasing to the ear, I'd like to know why. It will help me in the future find other products that I'll quite possibly also find enjoyable if they share similar qualities. On that note, having quantified performance parameters is the only way to objectively compare speakers. I can't buy a pair of every speaker I'd ever like to try out.....being able to compare them objectively allows us to narrow product selection possibilities without having to sample every speaker in person, which is literally impossible. Subjective comparisons are quite literally useless. If I'm going to make a suggestion to someone regarding product selection or consider a product for my own use, I'm certainly not going to do it based on someone else's subjective analysis....Also, if I know some objective information about a speaker, I'll know more about it's limits and limitations, the proper implementation of the driver and in what situations or circumstances it would or would not be a good fit.

It's not the computers that listen to the speakers, it is people with EARS

You're right. But that doesn't mean we can't learn anything from the objective measurements we make. We can do a pretty good job of describing the performance of a loudspeaker and how it will perform (and as a result, sound) with a comprehensive set of objective measurements. Whether or not someone will like that sound and how they will describe that sound is completely subjective and will vary from person to person. What one person subjectively enjoys another may not. So what use are ears when describing or comparing speakers? Who's ears should we use to make these determinations, since my ears and your ears are not going to be the same? Who is the golden eared standard?

and the more ears that listen to them and like it THAT IS WHAT COUNTS,

See below.

not a bunch of numbers on a piece of paper.

If you understand the numbers on the piece of paper, those will tell you far more about a speaker than a hundred subjective listeners. Subjective listeners are subject to several variables which makes their listening experience quite useless to me (and anyone else). They are subject to mood, bias, personal preference, and a host of other issues including the scenario and environment in which their experience occurred. No one with subjective experience can tell me more about a speakers performance than a comprehensive set of objective measurements. No one is golden eared enough to qualify as an authoritative source based on subjective experience.

Computer programs were written by humans, they themselves can be subjective due to the individual writing the software,

Which is a nice thing about objective comparisons.......they can be reliably compared to other measurements made under the same circumstances. Run the software and compare it to predictions or other measurements......if they match up, results are reliable.

and most do not take into account every sinerio in speaker design such as underhung, overhung voice coils, extended pole pieces which change the magnetic field, and so on....

What? It's like you're just throwing out some terms in hopes of sounding intelligent. For example, you don't think it's possible to compare the linearity of two different motor designs?

I have heard speakers which qoute beautiful numbers sound sterile, dead and lifeless or as bad as an un-inviting as a pile of horse crap which some seem to dsh out here a lot.

Then maybe you are one of the subjective listeners who doesn't enjoy speakers that measure well. Maybe you like distortion, maybe you like uneven frequency response, etc. Hence one of the reasons subjective opinions are useless.....you might not like the same performance as I do. Which makes your opinion of something useless for my purposes.

But what if we had a way to objectively describe the type of sound you prefer? Wouldn't that be handy! It would take some of the guesswork out of selecting products. Match up the drivers with objective measurements that align well with your objectively defined preference for "good sound", and you'd have a much easier time finding products that meet up with your goals.

Leave the opinions to the ones that have heard the speakers

It seems the only people offering opinions so far are those that have heard the speakers......so I'm not sure why the Blues guys keep saying this? YOU ARE THE ONLY ONES. The rest of us would be interested in more information about the speakers. Or, if someone wants to send me a pair I'd be more than happy to offer my own subjective opinions of the speakers, since that seems to be the only thing that matters to the Blues guys.

and compared them to other speakers.

Please do not compare them to any other speakers. Hearing or owning a product does not qualify someone in and of itself to make any sort of valid comparison against any other product. In many cases, it doesn't qualify someone to make a valid description of the performance of the product itself depending up on type of experience the user has. People think because they have some subjective experience with a product it qualifies them to make absolute authoritative statements about a product....which is absolutely false.

NOT some egotistical wad that likes to spout numbers and has not listened to the product.

And accepting the opinion of an egotistical wad who spouts nothing but subjective opinions and apparently doesn't even understand objective measurements and their use is somehow better? No, in fact it would be far worse.

Anyone with even the vaguest understanding of the usefulness of objectivity would be better off to base their decisions on objective information rather than others subjective rubbish.

And since you can't seem to grasp this concept.....no one else has commented on their performance.

quote=whodat: "Only people that have heard them are capable of making an informed deciision and opinion on if they are good or not".

Not the case at all. Listening to a speaker in no way confirms someone as an authoritative source on the performance of a loudspeaker. Certainly they are free to state an opinion, but anyone else would be foolish to accept that opinion as anything other than a single subjective opinion.....and it's certainly not a definitive statement of performance or characteristics.

What I may think as "good" you might think sucks, and vise versa.

quote=whodat: "Here is aqoute from another thread on this site about the products"

I don't care. Nobody here cares except the Blues guys who have taken up the untenable position that subjective opinions matter.

Though I really don't know why I'm still wasting my time with this thread, as even if you do respond it will be another worthless attempt to attribute some value to subjectivity when in this case none exists.

(had to format those last two quotes differently as I had reached the maximum number of quotes allowed in a single post)

[///M5 2,833]

One more subjective response and we will be nearly at the level of Ultra = Blues, lol.

[Impious 1,476]

One more subjective response and we will be nearly at the level of Ultra = Blues, lol.

And unfortunately, with far less actual information about Blues

Atleast Ultra offered one of their drivers up for measurement, then tried to argue the results.

The Blues guys aren't willing to do anything other than argue why we don't even need objective information.

[sq_mgb 21]

As one of the "Blues guys" I've been ridiculed, insulted, told I didn't know how poor my hearing was, told my "magic speakers" couldn't do what they do, the list goes on and on, by people who have not heard the new line of drivers. That's what the "Blues guys" are up in arms about. Basically, it seems to me, that this has turned into a case of "mine's bigger than yours" and it's not productive.

So...

I agree that certain specs can tell how a driver will work say in a free-air configuration (I believe it's a high qts driver plus I'm sure some other figures come into play). Impious, I recognize that you and M5 are very knowledgeable and therefore, I value your input. For those of us who do not have the technical background, please explain what specs demonstrate dynamics, realism, and that "I was there live" feeling one gets when listening to a musical passage, and I will do my dead level best to find out what those numbers are and report them here.

As far as the application these drivers were designed for, they were designed to simply reproduce music as accurately as possible, AND as simply as possible. If you have a car and you want an easy to do setup, put the 6's in a door, the tweeter where it sounds best, hook up a good solid amp of 100-150 watts, and let it play. There's no need for 24 speakers, 24 amp channels, a computer to time align everything, and a degree in engineering to put it all together.

These vehicles we built may or may not be the best sounding things on the planet, but I have yet to have anyone listen to my own vehicle that wasn't amazed at what they heard. Again, that is only other's opinions and don't count for a darn thing here. I have made over half a dozen trips to Kansas City over the past year in an effort to let Julian hear the truck, but he never showed up. I would love to demo it for him, but even he seems intent on agreeing with the ones who haven't heard them.

I have tried to be helpful where I could, usually I get beat to the punch (post?) by people who are on here more often than me. I do not mislead anyone, nor do I try to say the products I use are the end-all-be-all of music reproduction. I like them and will continue to use them untill Ray, Steve and Jerry come up with something new.

In an effort to "keep the peace," I propose insults on both sides cease and let's make this a thread we can all learn from. Help the "T/S challenged" people like me understand how the specs work, and how they can be used to understand speaker behavior.

Sorry for the rant, I just felt this was going nowhere good and want to turn this thread into something we can learn from, and I'm not talking about an ultra-sized pissing contest.

[///M5 2,833]

As one of the "Blues guys" I've been ridiculed, insulted, told I didn't know how poor my hearing was, told my "magic speakers" couldn't do what they do, the list goes on and on, by people who have not heard the new line of drivers. That's what the "Blues guys" are up in arms about. Basically, it seems to me, that this has turned into a case of "mine's bigger than yours" and it's not productive.

Stop taking things emotionally and personally and read objectively it will really help this conversation No one has ever ridiculed or insulted any of you other than your silly approach of saying it sounds the best to me so therefore these are the greatest speakers since sliced bread. Instead please respond for ONCE without any subjective nonsense which in your whole post you again forgot to do

I agree that certain specs can tell how a driver will work say in a free-air configuration (I believe it's a high qts driver plus I'm sure some other figures come into play). Impious, I recognize that you and M5 are very knowledgeable and therefore, I value your input. For those of us who do not have the technical background, please explain what specs demonstrate dynamics, realism, and that "I was there live" feeling one gets when listening to a musical passage, and I will do my dead level best to find out what those numbers are and report them here.

Um, you can't analyze one spec but only the set. As for showing what they do "free-air" they will actually show what they will do in any environment as long as that environment is known. I've offered and asked now three times for someone to show where this isn't the case but no one in the subjective camp has anything to say about that. Considering this is the case, there is another SIMPLE question you could answer. Ask Ray how he designed specifically for "dynamics, realism, and that "I was there live" feeling one gets when listening to a musical passage" when he designed the drivers. This would be some scientific input we would all really love to hear.

As far as the application these drivers were designed for, they were designed to simply reproduce music as accurately as possible, AND as simply as possible. If you have a car and you want an easy to do setup, put the 6's in a door, the tweeter where it sounds best, hook up a good solid amp of 100-150 watts, and let it play. There's no need for 24 speakers, 24 amp channels, a computer to time align everything, and a degree in engineering to put it all together.

Perfect, please share how this design was developed and what was done to make this happen. That would be stellar. As for the second portion of the quote, no one on here would ever recommend 24 speakers and that bs which is rather obvious from tons of other threads on the forum.

These vehicles we built may or may not be the best sounding things on the planet, but I have yet to have anyone listen to my own vehicle that wasn't amazed at what they heard. Again, that is only other's opinions and don't count for a darn thing here. I have made over half a dozen trips to Kansas City over the past year in an effort to let Julian hear the truck, but he never showed up. I would love to demo it for him, but even he seems intent on agreeing with the ones who haven't heard them.

Stop, again NO ONE on here cares what you think about how your car sounds. This isn't a knock on your hearing, but the fact that the subjective nature of that response is nonsense. There are tons of us that could easily say the same about our vehicles but you don't see that happening now do you? The only ones in the pissing contest seem to be in your camp, we are not competing with that as we surely don't believe in it.

I have tried to be helpful where I could, usually I get beat to the punch (post?) by people who are on here more often than me. I do not mislead anyone, nor do I try to say the products I use are the end-all-be-all of music reproduction. I like them and will continue to use them untill Ray, Steve and Jerry come up with something new.

There is really only one way to be helpful and you haven't. Answer Impious or my questions. If you don't know how or can't ask for clarification. Since you seem rather convinced these were designed to be musical and ... then share the design process of how that was done.

In an effort to "keep the peace," I propose insults on both sides cease and let's make this a thread we can all learn from. Help the "T/S challenged" people like me understand how the specs work, and how they can be used to understand speaker behavior.

The only reason you could be taking any of this as insulting is if you are reacting emotionally to the fact that your subjective opinion matters not. Silly thing to get insulted over. As for understanding specifications, we'd be glad to help but there seems to be a disconnect in your understanding completely. As a whole they will describe EXACTLY what a driver will do in ANY environment so you can imagine the complexity of your answer. As a primer, pick up a copy of Vance Dickason's book, Loudspeaker Design Cookbook and read it. Once you absorb that it will make answering your question VERY easy

Sorry for the rant, I just felt this was going nowhere good and want to turn this thread into something we can learn from, and I'm not talking about an ultra-sized pissing contest.

Again, there is only one way to make this thread something we can learn from and it is for your camp to share something objective. IE, not subjective, not emotional and not about what YOU have heard. Instead share Ray's design process, his testing process, how he has tweaked standard driver design to do what he has done. So far we have no details AT ALL on the driver other than what we can see from the pictures and pricing and on the surface the two do not make sense together.

Let me give you one other bit of insight. Basically everyone who reads this thread is getting a really bad picture of Blues, and not at all from Impious or my responses but from yours. I am sure that without answering our very simple questions you guys are doing a really good job of destroying potential customers instead of helping yourselves. This is the internet, people don't buy on emotion that they aren't connected to and that is ALL that you guys are sharing. For the sake of this forum, your company, and rudimentary science please stop. I'd love to see you guys post something useful and challenge you to try as so far it has just been one heck of a mess. Please prove me wrong.

And again, don't take this personally. I have nothing against any of you and actually at this point am just amused at the stubbornness, but I do look forward to a real response.

[Adrian_D 520]

WHO cares about parameters if it is pleasing to the ears. It's not the computers that listen to the speakers, it is people with EARS and the more ears that listen to them and like it THAT IS WHAT COUNTS, not a bunch of numbers on a piece of paper. Computer programs were written by humans, they themselves can be subjective due to the individual writing the software, and most do not take into account every sinerio in speaker design such as underhung, overhung voice coils, extended pole pieces which change the magnetic field, and so on....

What if I only have 0.5cf of space ? I spend my money to buy the speaker and realize it doesn't sound good in that space. What now ? Take an angle grinder and modify my car to fit the speaker ? Or sell a speaker which was used 15 minutes and lose money ?

Considering most software which respects itself uses formulas from Vance Dickinson's book, stating that programs are written bad is like stating that the book is written bad and that poor fella has no clue.

A bit of reasoning and common sense please

[sq_mgb 21]

I would love to be able to tell how the design process was done exactly, unfortunately, I was not a part of that process. All I know is that speakers were built, listened to, changed, listened to, over and over again until he got the sound he wanted. After he got that done, he worked on the crossover changing components over and over again until he got what he wanted. That was his design process to the best of my knowledge.

As far as measurements go, I have NO IDEA what they are, nor do I have access to them, so I can't provide them. You asked me how he designed for dynamics, realism, and the live experience, he LISTENED to them and changed spiders, cones, surrounds, voice coils, and whatever other parts until he got the SOUND he wanted. Maybe specs were his starting point, maybe they weren't, I DON'T KNOW, I didn't design them. I am merely trying to answer the questions posed to the best of my ability.

Hopefully that will go a short way to getting the answers you want, as unfortunately I am unable to speak any more scientifically than that.

[///M5 2,833]

Missed completely what I was asking. What did listening tell him to change specifically in the drivers and how did he determine it by listening.

[BanginGMC 23]

[sq_mgb 21]

I didn't miss it, I gave you what I know. I don't know what he changed, why he changed it, or what he heard that made him do it, I only know that's what he did. I'm sorry I can't be of any more help than that.

[sq_mgb 21]

I WOULD like you (M5 or Impious) to help me understand something that occured when we built the home cabinets. After a long listening session, we cut off some of the port which I understand raises tuning.

Cutting off the port made the MIDRANGE more pronounced.

In simple terms, why would that happen? I have been confused ever since I heard it and really would like to understand the why behind it.

Is it because the tuning frequency is higher? The tuning frequencies were 27hz before and 29-31hz after I believe. I'm just trying to figure out why it would affect midrange frequencies when the tuning is way below what I would think of as midrange.

[///M5 2,833]

Why would you share a box with a subwoofer and a midrange???