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Blues Production Sub's. . . . . . . Remember

Blues Production Sub's  

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  1. 1. Anyone Remember These Sub's



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I believe it was a midrange and tweet in the same cabinet, no subwoofer.

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The cabinet had a 6.5 and a tweet. The cabinet was tuned at 27hz to start, raising tuning to 29-31hz affected the midrange, I was curious as to how since both tunings were below midrange frequencies.

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I WOULD like you (M5 or Impious) to help me understand something that occured when we built the home cabinets. After a long listening session, we cut off some of the port which I understand raises tuning.

Cutting off the port made the MIDRANGE more pronounced.

In simple terms, why would that happen? I have been confused ever since I heard it and really would like to understand the why behind it.

Is it because the tuning frequency is higher? The tuning frequencies were 27hz before and 29-31hz after I believe. I'm just trying to figure out why it would affect midrange frequencies when the tuning is way below what I would think of as midrange.

There's not enough information to accurately answer your questions. I can throw out a few possibilities, whether or not any of these are the actual cause I can not guaranty as again.....not enough information,and I am by far and away anything but an expert on acoustics to begin with.

What we would really need to directly and accurately answer your question would be.....wait for it.....objective measurements (!) of the system both before and after. But since those aren't available.......

First, we'll just air this one out right now.......psychoacoustics. And the typical response to this statement is "I know what I heard, the difference was there! Don't tell me I didn't hear it!" Well, really, without some type of measurement, you can't prove there was any difference. Again, the problem of subjective statements rears it's ugly head. My car system will sound slightly different on different days depending on my mood, what nuances I (subconsciously or consciously) focus on that day, etc. If you tell me your system sounds exactly the same every single day, I'd call you a liar. But, now that we have that out of the way, we can move on to some physical reasons of why you may have heard a change.

A change in either listening position or location of the speakers within the listening space will affect the frequency response, and hence can cause an audible change. You might think think the change was minor or unobservable in the space, but audio is a game where inches can make a difference in response shape as it will change the interference pattern of the speakers and their interaction with the room, among other things.

Adding/moving/relocating damping material within the enclosure would affect standing waves and reflections within the enclosure, which could be observed in frequency response.

I don't know how you accessed the port, but removing a panel/port/driver and resealing it might have caused a change in an air leak which was affecting a particular band of midrange frequencies.

If you removed any speaker wire leads, you may have reconnected them in a different polarity (maybe they were incorrectly phased previously, and after reconnection were properly wired in relative phase).

There might have been a relative change in frequency response due to the change in tuning which made the midrange seem more pronounced even though it's actual frequency response was unaffected (although the response of the system as a whole changed).

From everything I've learned, the port will allow some midrange energy to escape though it. How much and how pronounced depends on a whole host of factors.....but this is supposedly one of the reasons why many home speakers have the port facing rearward, so that midrange energy that escapes interferes less with the direct wave radiating from the speaker. I suppose it might be possible that the tuning frequency and location of the port end in the enclosure or of the bandwidth of midrange frequencies affected/escaping might cause a noticeable difference in midrange depending on the host of factors which affect it (enclosure design, port location, damping material within the enclosure, etc etc).

A change in the tuning frequency would change the alignment of the speaker and it's excursion levels at various frequencies, which may have caused a slight change in how the driver behaved in the midrange frequencies (such as slightly affecting intermodulation distortion, etc).

My list is not comprehensive, and I can not promise that any single one of those are a contributing factor. It might be none of the above, or a combination of several. Some of them are kinda stretching the realm of audibility, threw them out there as options mainly to just list everything that popped into my head as I sat here typing. And that was just a list off the top of my head, some research into the issue and far more details about the setup may reveal many more possibilities I can't think of off hand or am unaware of.

But we'll never really know....since there aren't any objective measurements of the before and after to demonstrate what did or didn't change.

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Nicely put. I would stress the fact that if these weren't truly A/B tested BLINDLY then I'd really chock it up to pyschoacoustics.

One other thing Brad left out that pops up in my mind. It is possible for the particular track that the low frequency information was stressing the driver with the low tuning causing other anomalies higher up in the response. Once the tuning was raised this could have gone away.

Acoustic masking is a bitch as well, plenty of different ways that could rear its head and have you notice/not notice things with very minor changes.

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I WOULD like you (M5 or Impious) to help me understand something that occured when we built the home cabinets. After a long listening session, we cut off some of the port which I understand raises tuning.

Cutting off the port made the MIDRANGE more pronounced.

In simple terms, why would that happen? I have been confused ever since I heard it and really would like to understand the why behind it.

Is it because the tuning frequency is higher? The tuning frequencies were 27hz before and 29-31hz after I believe. I'm just trying to figure out why it would affect midrange frequencies when the tuning is way below what I would think of as midrange.

There's not enough information to accurately answer your questions. I can throw out a few possibilities, whether or not any of these are the actual cause I can not guaranty as again.....not enough information,and I am by far and away anything but an expert on acoustics to begin with.

What we would really need to directly and accurately answer your question would be.....wait for it.....objective measurements (!) of the system both before and after. But since those aren't available.......

First, we'll just air this one out right now.......psychoacoustics. And the typical response to this statement is "I know what I heard, the difference was there! Don't tell me I didn't hear it!" Well, really, without some type of measurement, you can't prove there was any difference. Again, the problem of subjective statements rears it's ugly head. My car system will sound slightly different on different days depending on my mood, what nuances I (subconsciously or consciously) focus on that day, etc. If you tell me your system sounds exactly the same every single day, I'd call you a liar. But, now that we have that out of the way, we can move on to some physical reasons of why you may have heard a change.

I can not and will not argue the point of measuring the response of the drivers as it was not done. In hindsight, I should have pulled out my iPhone, turned on the rta and played some pink noise both before and after to see if there was any change, but I didn't so I guess that's a big FAIL for me. We were just comparing the different cabinets with the 5.25, the 6 and the 8 inch components by listening to musical selections we were very familiar with and thought that the midrange was a little less detailed on the 6 and 8 inch components and thought a change needed to be made.

A change in either listening position or location of the speakers within the listening space will affect the frequency response, and hence can cause an audible change. You might think think the change was minor or unobservable in the space, but audio is a game where inches can make a difference in response shape as it will change the interference pattern of the speakers and their interaction with the room, among other things.

This is something I had not considered. I cannot say that the speakers were placed in exactly the same spot because we moved them from one room, out to the install bay, and back into the room. Placement may or may not have been in exactly the same spot as before. That being said, I do know that minor changes in angle on tweeters as observed in my own vehicle made a world of difference in imaging so I assume it could do the same for frequency response.

Adding/moving/relocating damping material within the enclosure would affect standing waves and reflections within the enclosure, which could be observed in frequency response.

There was no damping material in the enclosure at the time so that would not have been it, but something I should have mentioned. Sorry to have left that out.

I don't know how you accessed the port, but removing a panel/port/driver and resealing it might have caused a change in an air leak which was affecting a particular band of midrange frequencies.

The port was external to the box so a cap could be placed over the port to convert it to a sealed enclosure and we simply cut off about an inch of the external portion of the port. Driver did not come out of the box, nor did the port, but great care was taken to ensure the enclosure was well sealed from air leaks.

If you removed any speaker wire leads, you may have reconnected them in a different polarity (maybe they were incorrectly phased previously, and after reconnection were properly wired in relative phase).

Wiring was put back in the same polarity as before, and something we had considered so we checked to make sure it was the same.

There might have been a relative change in frequency response due to the change in tuning which made the midrange seem more pronounced even though it's actual frequency response was unaffected (although the response of the system as a whole changed).

This is the kind of thing I want to learn more about. Is there a "layman's terms" way to explain this?

From everything I've learned, the port will allow some midrange energy to escape though it. How much and how pronounced depends on a whole host of factors.....but this is supposedly one of the reasons why many home speakers have the port facing rearward, so that midrange energy that escapes interferes less with the direct wave radiating from the speaker. I suppose it might be possible that the tuning frequency and location of the port end in the enclosure or of the bandwidth of midrange frequencies affected/escaping might cause a noticeable difference in midrange depending on the host of factors which affect it (enclosure design, port location, damping material within the enclosure, etc etc).

The port on these enclosures is on the back as well. Did not know that midrange frequencies would escape through a port, but that makes sense.

A change in the tuning frequency would change the alignment of the speaker and it's excursion levels at various frequencies, which may have caused a slight change in how the driver behaved in the midrange frequencies (such as slightly affecting intermodulation distortion, etc).

The tuning frequency only changed 2-4hz which is what confused me. I didn't think a change that small in tuning would affect anything that much higher up in the frequency range.

My list is not comprehensive, and I can not promise that any single one of those are a contributing factor. It might be none of the above, or a combination of several. Some of them are kinda stretching the realm of audibility, threw them out there as options mainly to just list everything that popped into my head as I sat here typing. And that was just a list off the top of my head, some research into the issue and far more details about the setup may reveal many more possibilities I can't think of off hand or am unaware of.

It may not be comprehensive, but it went a looooong way to helping me understand a bit more about how sound works. As always, you have explained something that confused the heck out of me in a way that I can understand. Thank you.

But we'll never really know....since there aren't any objective measurements of the before and after to demonstrate what did or didn't change.

What still confuses me is that this change was observed (rightly or wrongly) by multiple people's ears in different locations (buildings) and environments AND on different days, not just one. Also, to make it even more confusing to me, some of these people did not know that a change had been made to the enclosure, but a difference was heard by them as well. That's the part I'm having difficulty with in regards to the measurements thing. If I make a change in something, I know it was made and therefore will THINK I hear a difference. That part I agree with wholeheartedly. But when people listen multiple times a day to the same setup and then a change is made without telling them and they hear a difference, THAT's what I don't understand. Maybe it's psychoacoustics, but what if it isn't? Thanks again!

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Nicely put. I would stress the fact that if these weren't truly A/B tested BLINDLY then I'd really chock it up to pyschoacoustics.

One other thing Brad left out that pops up in my mind. It is possible for the particular track that the low frequency information was stressing the driver with the low tuning causing other anomalies higher up in the response. Once the tuning was raised this could have gone away.Acoustic masking is a bitch as well, plenty of different ways that could rear its head and have you notice/not notice things with very minor changes.

This is exactly the kind of response I was looking for. Thank you for helping me to understand (or at least trying to!). One of these days maybe I'll be able to remember half of the stuff you've tried to teach me! :drink40:

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[What still confuses me is that this change was observed (rightly or wrongly) by multiple people's ears in different locations (buildings) and environments AND on different days, not just one. Also, to make it even more confusing to me, some of these people did not know that a change had been made to the enclosure, but a difference was heard by them as well. That's the part I'm having difficulty with in regards to the measurements thing. If I make a change in something, I know it was made and therefore will THINK I hear a difference. That part I agree with wholeheartedly. But when people listen multiple times a day to the same setup and then a change is made without telling them and they hear a difference, THAT's what I don't understand. Maybe it's psychoacoustics, but what if it isn't? Thanks again!

Keep in mind that human's have rather poor hearing in grand scheme of things, with fairly poor auditory memory. Chances are good you could have walked someone into the room two days in a row, and they would have perceived slight differences in sound even if no changes were made at all to the system. Even more likely if innocent but subtle hints are inadvertently given.

On top of that, we are subject to expectations (placebo effect....if we know something changed we'll expect a difference, and we'll then hear a difference), group think (if one person notices a supposed difference, the others will then "notice" it as well), and the power of persuasion (if you ask something innocent like "Notice anything different?", they'll expect there to be a difference and hence will "hear" one).

I'm not saying no differences existed....there very well might have been a measurable and audible difference.....especially if listening position or speaker placement and aiming changed (that's a biggie!).

But don't discount the power of psychoacoustics. Sugar pills cure illness every day around the world. Something to think about.

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Point taken, and I appreciate your and Sean's help very much in helping me attempt to figure out the WHY behind this crazy world of car audio! :)

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Keep in mind that human's have rather poor hearing in grand scheme of things, with fairly poor auditory memory. Chances are good you could have walked someone into the room two days in a row, and they would have perceived slight differences in sound even if no changes were made at all to the system. Even more likely if innocent but subtle hints are inadvertently given.

But don't discount the power of psychoacoustics. Sugar pills cure illness every day around the world. Something to think about.

What he meant:

Keep in mind that human's have really crappy hearing in grand scheme of things, with a down right shitty auditory memory. Pretty much guaranteed you could have walked someone into the room two days in a row, and they would have perceived differences in sound even if no changes were made at all to the system.

Never discount the power of psychoacoustics most of the reviews on the net are soured by them completely. Subjectivity in audio is a joke.

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Thank you for helping me with my reading comprehension as I'm sure I would not have taken what Brad said that way without your help. Thank you for setting me straight. Now would you be so kind as to tell me what computer and program I need to be able to accurately listen to my stereo? :D (It's just a joke Sean, don't get offended)

Edited by sq_mgb

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Thank you for helping me with my reading comprehension as I'm sure I would not have taken what Brad said that way without your help. Thank you for setting me straight. Now would you be so kind as to tell me what computer and program I need to be able to accurately listen to my stereo? :D (It's just a joke Sean, don't get offended)

http://www.bkhome.com/products/telecomaudiosolutions/headtorso/headandtorsosimulatorhatstype4128c.aspx +

http://www.bkhome.com/Products/PULSEAnalyzerPlatform/PULSESolutionsOverview/Electroacoustics/AudioAnalyzerOptions.aspx +

http://www.bksv.com/products/telecomaudiosolutions/electroacousticsaccessories/pistonphonetype4228.aspx +

An Acoustics degree

Oh, and I don't get offended easily, remember I am not the emotional one ;)

If it is for development you should also add:

http://www.bksv.com/Products/TelecomAudioSolutions/ElectroacousticsAccessories/TurntableSystemType9640.aspx

A big ass anechoic chamber and

http://www.polytec.com/us/products/vibration-sensors/scanning-vibrometers/psv-400-3d-scanning-vibrometer/

http://www.klippel.de/analyzer/default.asp

If you need a quote on the above equipment, I can help but I hope you have some money, lol.

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LOL! I knew you would know.

I do have a friend that works at the National Center for Physical Acoustics that could run all that for me and help me interpret the data, so that part's covered. :)

As far as the development stuff goes, I have no need for any of that since I'm not designing anything. God knows I can't hear nearly as well as others on this or any other forum I read, so I have NO business trying to do that. I'll leave that up to the experts. :)

Thanks for the info!

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LOL! I knew you would know.

I do have a friend that works at the National Center for Physical Acoustics that could run all that for me and help me interpret the data, so that part's covered. :)

As far as the development stuff goes, I have no need for any of that since I'm not designing anything. God knows I can't hear nearly as well as others on this or any other forum I read, so I have NO business trying to do that. I'll leave that up to the experts. :)

Thanks for the info!

Use the stuff on a daily basis.

As for the bold comment, perhaps you now realize why subjective comments aren't very helpful? Had to quote you...

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LOL! I knew you would know.

I do have a friend that works at the National Center for Physical Acoustics that could run all that for me and help me interpret the data, so that part's covered. :)

As far as the development stuff goes, I have no need for any of that since I'm not designing anything. God knows I can't hear nearly as well as others on this or any other forum I read, so I have NO business trying to do that. I'll leave that up to the experts. :)

Thanks for the info!

Use the stuff on a daily basis.

As for the bold comment, perhaps you now realize why subjective comments aren't very helpful? Had to quote you...

As my reading comprehension isn't very good as was evidenced when you had to translate for me, what does the sentence fragment highlighted above mean?

Does it mean that you use it every day OR, that I am supposed to in order to be able to listen to music and enjoy it OR both? :ughdunno:

Remember, I am merely a consumer and would prefer to not have to drag many thousands of $$$ in computer equipment and software to a store to be able to choose my speakers. I only have the equipment I was born with (my ears) to be able to determine which products I want to purchase. I can't speak for anyone but myself on that, but I would venture a GUESS that MOST other people don't want to either. But I'm sure I'm way off base since I don't have an objective measurement for that either. ;)

The only objective measurement I have is in the last 30 years I have NEVER seen anyone drag a computer into the listening area, set it up, and then audition the different drivers and make a choice on what product they are going to spend their hard earned money based on what the computer told them sounded the best. They listened, and purchased what sounded best to THEM. Were they ALL WRONG??? :ughdunno:

I'm not saying that subjective is better than objective. I'm not saying that I or anyone else can hear better than a machine. I am merely saying that at some point, this is all about LISTENING TO MUSIC that makes us happy. At what point does this move away from that and become something else? Everyone on the planet is not a scientist or engineer, we are people. Some of us want to actually LISTEN to music. Isn't that what this is all about? :ughdunno:

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I left out the I in the sentence. As in I use stuff like that everyday. Amusingly you are off just a wee bit on the pricing. That isn't thousands of dollars worth of equipment, but over $1M.

And remember, that was for development. Exactly why I am interested in what Ray did. :)

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Remember, I am merely a consumer and would prefer to not have to drag many thousands of $$$ in computer equipment and software to a store to be able to choose my speakers. I only have the equipment I was born with (my ears) to be able to determine which products I want to purchase. I can't speak for anyone but myself on that, but I would venture a GUESS that MOST other people don't want to either. But I'm sure I'm way off base since I don't have an objective measurement for that either. ;)

The only objective measurement I have is in the last 30 years I have NEVER seen anyone drag a computer into the listening area, set it up, and then audition the different drivers and make a choice on what product they are going to spend their hard earned money based on what the computer told them sounded the best. They listened, and purchased what sounded best to THEM. Were they ALL WRONG??? :ughdunno:

I'm not saying that subjective is better than objective. I'm not saying that I or anyone else can hear better than a machine. I am merely saying that at some point, this is all about LISTENING TO MUSIC that makes us happy. At what point does this move away from that and become something else? Everyone on the planet is not a scientist or engineer, we are people. Some of us want to actually LISTEN to music. Isn't that what this is all about? :ughdunno:

You really don't get it do you.

As that consumer did you listen to EVERY speaker before making a decision? Obviously I know the answer is no which means you have a very small sampling. Real measurements allow you to evaluate EVERY driver that you would like to for your application and know EXACTLY how it will perform in comparison to others. It is way faster to screen drivers up front and listen to just a few than the other way around which gets us to the point of listening to music faster. Really simple, not sure why you and your camp completely doesn't get it.

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Remember, I am merely a consumer and would prefer to not have to drag many thousands of $$$ in computer equipment and software to a store to be able to choose my speakers. I only have the equipment I was born with (my ears) to be able to determine which products I want to purchase. I can't speak for anyone but myself on that, but I would venture a GUESS that MOST other people don't want to either. But I'm sure I'm way off base since I don't have an objective measurement for that either. ;)

The only objective measurement I have is in the last 30 years I have NEVER seen anyone drag a computer into the listening area, set it up, and then audition the different drivers and make a choice on what product they are going to spend their hard earned money based on what the computer told them sounded the best. They listened, and purchased what sounded best to THEM. Were they ALL WRONG??? :ughdunno:

I'm not saying that subjective is better than objective. I'm not saying that I or anyone else can hear better than a machine. I am merely saying that at some point, this is all about LISTENING TO MUSIC that makes us happy. At what point does this move away from that and become something else? Everyone on the planet is not a scientist or engineer, we are people. Some of us want to actually LISTEN to music. Isn't that what this is all about? :ughdunno:

You really don't get it do you.

As that consumer did you listen to EVERY speaker before making a decision? Obviously I know the answer is no which means you have a very small sampling. Real measurements allow you to evaluate EVERY driver that you would like to for your application and know EXACTLY how it will perform in comparison to others. It is way faster to screen drivers up front and listen to just a few than the other way around which gets us to the point of listening to music faster. Really simple, not sure why you and your camp completely doesn't get it.

You are correct....I did NOT listen to EVERY speaker out there. However, I get more than you realize. What YOU don't get is that EVERY consumer doesn't have access to the equimpent you do and even if they did, could they use it?? What you say, comes across to me as, "If I (M5) say it sounds good, then it does, and if someone doesn't agree with me, then they are WRONG!!!" :ughdunno:

I have spent more money and time than I ever needed to buying speakers that, for one reason or another, I don't like as much as what I have now. I listened to speakers in many different stores, in many different states JUST to be able to get as large a sample as I possibly could. It wasn't very cost effective, but it was the best I could do. I even purchased a driver that YOU used yourself. I noticed that you removed that driver a while back in favor of another. :ughdunno:

Since I don't have access to the equipment you use every day, what am I supposed to do? I'm sure there are many others like me that don't have access to that equipment either, and even if we did, could we use it and understand what we were looking at? I saw the phase angle and frequency response graphs of the drivers I own. I understood the frequency response graph enough to know that if I could minimize reflections and cancellations that I would have pretty good response in-vehicle. As for the phase angle graph, I had no idea what it meant, and I still don't. I could look at charts all day long and it wouldn't mean a darn thing to me and I would also guess that most CONSUMERS that are purchasing speakers don't either. (notice I didn't say ALL consumers)

I'm all for education, but at some point, let's be realistic. If you have the education and ability to interpret charts and graphs, that's great! Those of us that can't, what are we left with? We are left with listening to the speakers at the local store, reading the reviews on the internet, and advice from others who have heard the products in which we are interested. That is why I read the forums. I read the opinions of people who have listened to the products I am interested in, and see what they thought of them. If they thought they sounded good, I searched them out and listened for myself and made my decision.

Never once have I said that my speakers are the BEST, NOR have I told ANYONE that these are what they should purchase. I have only told people to use their own judgement and their own ears since most of us don't have equipment like you use to purchase them. :ughdunno:

I have tried to be as honest as I can be in this discussion. Obviously we don't exactly see eye to eye, but I can see value in what you say. What I get from your posts is that anything I say has NO VALUE, nor will it ever. If that's the case, then I will agree to disagree. If that's not the case, then I apologize for not being able to read properly. I see value in looking at specs and trying to make an informed decision, but if you don't understand the charts and graphs, it still comes down to....DOES IT SOUND GOOD TO ME (the consumer)?

Good day! :drink40:

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You are correct....I did NOT listen to EVERY speaker out there. However, I get more than you realize. What YOU don't get is that EVERY consumer doesn't have access to the equimpent you do and even if they did, could they use it?? What you say, comes across to me as, "If I (M5) say it sounds good, then it does, and if someone doesn't agree with me, then they are WRONG!!!" :ughdunno:

:( You don't even read my posts do you. If I think it sounds good that is fine FOR ME and no one else. I don't run around saying I like the way this sounds you should buy it as it is absurd.

I never told you to measure anything and I don't measure speakers I buy either as the measurements I need are already published by every even halfway decent driver manufacturer. In fact, I have never bothered to measure a driver I have personally used ever. Measured plenty of drivers but most are used for completely other purposes.

I have spent more money and time than I ever needed to buying speakers that, for one reason or another, I don't like as much as what I have now. I listened to speakers in many different stores, in many different states JUST to be able to get as large a sample as I possibly could. It wasn't very cost effective, but it was the best I could do. I even purchased a driver that YOU used yourself. I noticed that you removed that driver a while back in favor of another. :ughdunno:

If you instead spent the time understanding RUDIMENTARY measurements you wouldn't have wasted so much money.

Since I don't have access to the equipment you use every day, what am I supposed to do? I'm sure there are many others like me that don't have access to that equipment either, and even if we did, could we use it and understand what we were looking at? I saw the phase angle and frequency response graphs of the drivers I own. I understood the frequency response graph enough to know that if I could minimize reflections and cancellations that I would have pretty good response in-vehicle. As for the phase angle graph, I had no idea what it meant, and I still don't. I could look at charts all day long and it wouldn't mean a darn thing to me and I would also guess that most CONSUMERS that are purchasing speakers don't either. (notice I didn't say ALL consumers)

Spend as much time reading about measurements as you have bitching in this thread and you'd understand enough to realize you don't need to listen to every driver known to man to help you narrow your decision logically.

I'm all for education, but at some point, let's be realistic. If you have the education and ability to interpret charts and graphs, that's great! Those of us that can't, what are we left with? We are left with listening to the speakers at the local store, reading the reviews on the internet, and advice from others who have heard the products in which we are interested. That is why I read the forums. I read the opinions of people who have listened to the products I am interested in, and see what they thought of them. If they thought they sounded good, I searched them out and listened for myself and made my decision.

There is VERY easy to use software that will help you. Just download WinISD and play around, it is super simple. It will tell you more than you've learned in the rest of your audio life in about 10 hours.

Never once have I said that my speakers are the BEST, NOR have I told ANYONE that these are what they should purchase. I have only told people to use their own judgement and their own ears since most of us don't have equipment like you use to purchase them. :ughdunno:

Again, equipment means nothing and ISN'T necessary. Hell Zaph gets buy with a teeny percentage of what is out there, but uses it correctly. And you haven't told people to use their own judgement but to listen to your subjective puking on what you think with NOTHING backing it up.

I have tried to be as honest as I can be in this discussion. Obviously we don't exactly see eye to eye, but I can see value in what you say. What I get from your posts is that anything I say has NO VALUE, nor will it ever. If that's the case, then I will agree to disagree. If that's not the case, then I apologize for not being able to read properly. I see value in looking at specs and trying to make an informed decision, but if you don't understand the charts and graphs, it still comes down to....DOES IT SOUND GOOD TO ME (the consumer)?

Good day! :drink40:

It better come down to whether it sounds good to the consumer, but when the consumer is being a nonsensical idiot then screw him.

Considering the ridiculous and obnoxious attempts to keep this subjective and trying around every corner instead of actually addressing ANY question asked in this thread, I have now drawn a conclusion. Obviously the Blues drivers are cheap junk and weren't engineered at all. I am sure everyone else reading this feels the same way. Please don't respond at all unless you go back and answer ANY of the questions that Impious or I have asked. I am sick of your circles. Will I keep responding? Yes, because at this point it is really amusing to see how much more idiotic they can become.

Driver design, speaker building, and installation is a science. Please bring some we would ALL love to see it. When you do, I'll be the first to change my tune but until then go ahead and continue to make your whole clique look bad.

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That sounded pretty emotional to me.....

As you want the last word, I will give it to you. I will no longer post on this or any other forum so you can be a big fish in a little pond.

Goodbye all!

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That sounded pretty emotional to me.....

As you want the last word, I will give it to you. I will no longer post on this or any other forum so you can be a big fish in a little pond.

Goodbye all!

If I didn't post, you'd have had the last word, lol. Please come back, but answer a question instead of more spouting. Everyone is sick of going back to square one every third post.

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