Two-way active front stage

[///M5 2,833]

I had just read good things about the sound...I have to admit I didn't look at the specs. What tweeter would you recommend for him? Its pretty hard for me to think of a mellow tweeter that would get SPL loud, sounds almost contradictory in my simple brain. Every tweeter that I can think of as loud seems overly bright to me, certainly not mellow. Maybe a pro sound tweeter of some sort?

I asked him about doing some horns, but we haven't heard since. Until he responds it isn't worth thinking about tweets. Needs to determine if horns are a feasible solution, but I am not sure what the budget had to cover so can't say. Then need to determine mounting location limitations, then processing, then drivers/amps.

[lithium 358]

nevermind

forgot he was thinking about horns

[Impious 1,476]

Given your goal, I would also suggest horns with a solid 8" midbass.

[abmoore 8]

Sorry guys, real busy weekend and I can see there was a lot of effort put into this post. So let me get into everything.

The pictures cable guy have are actually very similar to my car, although M5 is right, my goals may be a bit different than yours considering SQ isn't really my priority. But just as a reference I am working with that. I wouldn't mind stretching that budget either, especially for horns, wouldn't require quite the power as others to get loud so always a plus, not to mention if they are anything like my dad's klipschs, that would sound awesome (he just got the rf-62s.... lucky). The only problem is that with the full size horns, under the dash is limited by the AC, I need to get a photo of that. I have seen them put in the pillars and on top of the dash, not sure how that sounds though. So maybe the minis? My doors are very well damped now, along with CCF and MLV (reallllly made a difference). Not sure if 8s would fit in the kicks so I am guessing doors are a must, plus I would have to alter my door anyway, so I could put them as far away as possible and a bit more on axis, although I guess many of the frequencies from that won't be as localized.

Hope that's enough!

[abmoore 8]

Oh, and my mistake, Cablguy184s first post, the eighth post or so of the topic, is a good reference of the passenger side (second picture). If you notice the large black box jutting out, it seems it would impede the install of the horn, really wish it wasn't there. If you need better pics let me know.

[Randal Johnson 544]

my 6 1/2s and tweets have about 400 watts on them (extremely modified amplifier).

I also have 5 batteries and a 200 amp alt.

I wish you could hear my truck. It gets very loud. I run it in street beat classes to.

ultimate autosound did a tahoe with 4 rd audio tweets in each a pillars, 6 1/2 in the kicks, 2 6 1/2 in the doors on a 4 channel rd audioamp. It was very loud. 4 18s in the rear.

sorry bout that.

Edited March 15, 2010 by Cablguy184

[Randal Johnson 544]

I typed it wrong sq_mgb, thanks.

[///M5 2,833]

my 6 1/2s and tweets have about 400 watts on them (extremely modified amplifier).

By have do you mean you use 400w?

And yes I already know the answer which makes your recommendation even worse.

[abmoore 8]

Oh I responded last night, the two posts are on page two, they should explain some things.

[Randal Johnson 544]

Model RMS Power @ 4 Ohms Stereo 12.5 volts THD 20-20KHZ Mono Rating 4 Ohms ** Maximum /

Peak Power Damping Factor 4/2Ohm Channel Separation Slew Rate Volts/mSec Signal To Noise Ratio Required Fuse 2 Ohm St 4 Ohm Mono Capable Internally Bridgeable Frequency Response

2.2HV 12.5W x2 RMS 0.004% 600 Watts 1500 Watts 300/150 >72 dB >95 dB 40 Amps Yes Yes 5Hz-200kHz

** Mono Rating @ 4 Ohms is tested with the power supply taps moved to 2 Ohms setting where applicable.

This the link from Linear power. just add a few mods to it and see what you come up with.

[abmoore 8]

Ok that was real helpful......

[///M5 2,833]

Model RMS Power @ 4 Ohms Stereo 12.5 volts THD 20-20KHZ Mono Rating 4 Ohms ** Maximum /

Peak Power Damping Factor 4/2Ohm Channel Separation Slew Rate Volts/mSec Signal To Noise Ratio Required Fuse 2 Ohm St 4 Ohm Mono Capable Internally Bridgeable Frequency Response

2.2HV 12.5W x2 RMS 0.004% 600 Watts 1500 Watts 300/150 >72 dB >95 dB 40 Amps Yes Yes 5Hz-200kHz

** Mono Rating @ 4 Ohms is tested with the power supply taps moved to 2 Ohms setting where applicable.

This the link from Linear power. just add a few mods to it and see what you come up with.

Randal, do you ever answer a question. I asked a very simple, yes or no question.

By have do you mean you use 400w?

[Randal Johnson 544]

yes sir. right at about 200w per channel.

[Randal Johnson 544]

I do not use amp gains if thats what your asking.

[///M5 2,833]

yes sir. right at about 200w per channel.

And you HP them at 40Hz per your other thread. Those must be some seriously monster midbasses.

I do not use amp gains if thats what your asking.

Huh? By that do you mean they are at the minimum or the maximum or not? Also curious how you measured "200w" without setting your gains.

Do you actually know anything about your own install other than what drivers and amps you have? So far every time you post it sure seems that you are just regurgitating marketing garbage about something you have very little understanding about.

Now why is this on topic? Sorry to NCSU, but I really wanted to make sure that either when he read his thread or anyone else searched and read this that they realized that your recommendations are not even in the ballpark. Your drivers WILL not take 200w at 40Hz. Send me one, I'd be glad to measure at what power you will be mechanically running out of excursion and guarantee it will be significantly lower than 200w. Don't expect it to be working when it returns. On the same note, your front stage isn't loud. If you truly think it is you really don't understand what loud is. You think its loud because you've compared to other things that aren't loud. Those drivers will NOT help the OP.

NCSU you are stuck in a hard spot. Fitting the horns under your dash will indeed give you what you look for, but will require some modifications to make them fit. I'd seriously contemplate those mods and see if you can find a work around. Other formats of horns aren't going to achieve your other goal of not ripping your head off. Small format and horn is just not a good idea. There is no real commercial application for them so they just haven't been developed and engineering wise it wouldn't be trivial.

Look at your car again and do it with a measuring tape. See if you can make them fit. If not, we will have to contemplate a different path.

[abmoore 8]

Are those image dynamics mini horns decent, I am not sure if they are just slightly smaller or what. But as for the large format horn, I think it would be able to work if I either had it on-axis (although I heard not to do that with horns) or maybe upside down, making the driver on the far left and right sides of the car (does make a big difference?). Otherwise I guess I have to figure out a way to modify my AC, and that doesn't sound easy, or cheap for that matter.

[sq_mgb 21]

I think Cablguy is trying to say his amps are around 200 watts per channel, 400 total to all 6's and tweets.

We know that in normal listening, even if you have 1,000 watts on tap, nowhere near that much is actually being used at any one time for normal listening levels, as it would only be just a few watts. He just has that much in reserve power for musical peaks.

To get back on topic, I still stand behind my statement of using a GOOD midbass (or two) with a strong amp in either the kicks or the doors or BOTH to give the OP the volume level he wants from them.

Not sure how to mount a pair of horns in his vehicle since it's similar to mine and I have no idea how I could mount a horn on the passenger side without MAJOR surgery.

My gut feeling is a pair of capable midbass/midrange drivers paired with a good tweeter or two up high on each side, OR a pair of good midbass drivers on each side with a pair of full-rangers in the a-pillars would meet his needs.

For full range drivers I will have to defer a recommendation as I only know what I've read about them. For midbass I would look at Peerless SLS or similar drivers.

Ultimately the OP will have to audition individual drivers himself and make the decision on what gives him the sound he's looking for. All we as members of the forum can do is recommend things to him based on our experience.

Now, I don't think ANYONE on this forum would deliberately lie in an attempt to mislead someone. I also don't think it's necessary to slam someone every time they type on this forum. Disagreements are bound to happen, but as adults we should be able to solve those differences without all the extra crap that's going on.

Sean, I know you know your stuff...I've read your posts for several years now on various forums and you were always helpful and explained things to new people in a manner that everyone could understand. THAT is why I joined this forum. But something has happened to the knowledgeable, conceintious person that was always so helpful before. We ALL were newbs once, it's up to the ones who've been around for awhile to teach the new ones coming up without making them feel stupid. I feel like I can make contributions to this forum, but I don't for fear of being run over. I would like to see the bickering stop. It's not helpful to anyone. I spoke to Cablguy and he's not going to post anymore. Hopefully you two can get the bad blood worked out because it's not helping anyone.

To the OP... I'm sorry all this has gone on in your post. I hope that you can look beyond all the bickering and get some good information to help you get what you want from your system. Good luck with your search/build and let us know what you decide. And be sure to post pics!

[abmoore 8]

On top if the dash wouldn't be a good idea would it? And the horns need to be as far back as possible, but how far back would be ok?

[sq_mgb 21]

NCSU, isn't your dash similar to mine? I have an 02 Silverado. I don't see any way to get a horn on top of the dash without a lot of cutting. Cone area will be your friend for getting loud, and for an easier install I would look at multiple tweeters per side. If you are set on horns, I can't be any help because I wouldn't want to cut my truck enough to make the ones I have seen fit, but this isn't my truck.

I'll try to find some installs of horns on trucks like ours tomorrow when I have a computer instead of my phone to search with. You might look on cardomain and see if there is anyone who's installed horns on there, or maybe give Eric a call at ID and he might can guide you on how to install them. That's the best help I can offer, wish I could help more.

[///M5 2,833]

I think Cablguy is trying to say his amps are around 200 watts per channel, 400 total to all 6's and tweets.

We know that in normal listening, even if you have 1,000 watts on tap, nowhere near that much is actually being used at any one time for normal listening levels, as it would only be just a few watts. He just has that much in reserve power for musical peaks.

I understand headroom which is why I asked the question. He could have easily replied differently but instead implied that his drivers could take that much power.

Now, I don't think ANYONE on this forum would deliberately lie in an attempt to mislead someone. I also don't think it's necessary to slam someone every time they type on this forum. Disagreements are bound to happen, but as adults we should be able to solve those differences without all the extra crap that's going on.

I'd normally agree, however, it sure seems deliberate and always to make a point. The worst form of response on any forum is that I know because I compete. Explain yourself.

Sean, I know you know your stuff...I've read your posts for several years now on various forums and you were always helpful and explained things to new people in a manner that everyone could understand. THAT is why I joined this forum. But something has happened to the knowledgeable, conceintious person that was always so helpful before. We ALL were newbs once, it's up to the ones who've been around for awhile to teach the new ones coming up without making them feel stupid. I feel like I can make contributions to this forum, but I don't for fear of being run over. I would like to see the bickering stop. It's not helpful to anyone. I spoke to Cablguy and he's not going to post anymore. Hopefully you two can get the bad blood worked out because it's not helping anyone.

Everytime there is a good thread made I respond well, perhaps I do react aggressively when the threads aren't made well. The one thing I have ALWAYS done is called out things that were blatantly incorrect. I will try to temper the reaction, but seeing the quality of the questions that occur on the forum go steadily downhill frustrates me to the core. Exactly the reason that the Terms & Conditions exist. I think if you truly look at where I respond in such it is either to correct horrible misinformation or at some blatant refusal to try to write something in such a way that others could actually help.

I have NO issue with Randal at all and think he could easily find a home here, but he is going to have to realize what he thinks he knows and what he knows are two completely different things. I also think the only reason you'll feel you get run over is that you invited Randal here and he has made it very hard on himself. From the get go he showed up as someone who just wanted to pimp equipment claiming superiority over EVERYTHING else without any background knowledge to back it up. This is absurd as there is no such thing and it really pisses me off as it is a blantant and intentional lie. There is no "best" speaker, amplifier, or what not although there surely is a "best install" for parameters set by needs and budget.

I would encourage Randal to post, but to NEVER say anything about the fact that he is a competitor and to never say that the Blues Audio or LP drivers are the BEST solution for anyone. Instead try to focus on things for their specific install that could help them. I would also encourage him to make a real build thread as I guarantee that there are plenty of us on here that could help him improve his score in a MAJOR way.

Continuing on topic, I'd be curious on the required major surgery. Not that I doubt it, but it really will be the best solution for the NCSU's needs.

[sq_mgb 21]

Thank you M5 for explaining why you react the way you have towards Randal. I don't like when anyone BS's any more than you do and I understand your frustration with some of the questions that get asked. But as we are older (I assume you are similar age to me judging from your experience and knowledge base) we should show the maturity that comes with that wisdom.

I do feel responsible because I asked him to join. I know him away from the boards and he is not boastful in real life. He has been chasing 6Appeal and the rest of us in our circle for a long time. Now that he has done well, he's proud of himself, and we in turn are proud of him. He does have a good team behind him to get him this far and he, I think, wants to share what he's learned with everyone else. I really wish you could sit in his truck to see what it sounds like so you could understand his enthusiasm.

We can all learn from each other, obviously some of us more than others, that is why this forum is so great. I view you and Impious with a great deal of respect, and value your opinions.

To get back on topic, I've been in my truck all day looking at the dash and the only way I can see to put horns on top requires cutting the dash and putting them down where the defroster vents are. That's waaaay beyond my skill set, but possibly not beyond the OP. Under the dash on the driver side is no problem, but the passenger side has the heater or a/c or whatever that huge chunk of plastic is down there, and I haven't seen a horn body other than maybe the ID mini horns that would fit. Even then I'm not sure if the compression driver body would fit in the corner. It just seems too big to fit without a lot of cutting. That's why I suggested multiple tweeters so there would be minimal modification to the vehicle, but that may not be a concern in this instance. The only other thing I can think of for mounting horns is the rotomount horn body I believe Speakerworks makes/sells and that might fit without a lot of trouble.

[abmoore 8]

Thank you M5 for explaining why you react the way you have towards Randal. I don't like when anyone BS's any more than you do and I understand your frustration with some of the questions that get asked. But as we are older (I assume you are similar age to me judging from your experience and knowledge base) we should show the maturity that comes with that wisdom.

I do feel responsible because I asked him to join. I know him away from the boards and he is not boastful in real life. He has been chasing 6Appeal and the rest of us in our circle for a long time. Now that he has done well, he's proud of himself, and we in turn are proud of him. He does have a good team behind him to get him this far and he, I think, wants to share what he's learned with everyone else. I really wish you could sit in his truck to see what it sounds like so you could understand his enthusiasm.

We can all learn from each other, obviously some of us more than others, that is why this forum is so great. I view you and Impious with a great deal of respect, and value your opinions.

To get back on topic, I've been in my truck all day looking at the dash and the only way I can see to put horns on top requires cutting the dash and putting them down where the defroster vents are. That's waaaay beyond my skill set, but possibly not beyond the OP. Under the dash on the driver side is no problem, but the passenger side has the heater or a/c or whatever that huge chunk of plastic is down there, and I haven't seen a horn body other than maybe the ID mini horns that would fit. Even then I'm not sure if the compression driver body would fit in the corner. It just seems too big to fit without a lot of cutting. That's why I suggested multiple tweeters so there would be minimal modification to the vehicle, but that may not be a concern in this instance. The only other thing I can think of for mounting horns is the rotomount horn body I believe Speakerworks makes/sells and that might fit without a lot of trouble.

I will have to check those out. Yes that will be beyond my skill level I believe, the dash that is. I also was measuring down under the dash and it seems next to impossible, I am not sure if the AC or heating unit can be tampered with. I do have a friend that works on a lot of tahoes, but not in the audio department, I will still see if he knows anything about that. So it's looking like tweeters or a full range. Tomorrow I will get the pictures up to see if anyone has seen anything like that work before just in case.

[Sir-Lancelot 216]

I have seen pics of the mini body horns installed in these type trucks like ours. There are some pics on the ID forum.

Not sure how the mini body will work vs a full body, but just throwing it out there for you. I have read that in a truck you actually don't want to install them as wide like in a car. It was said to provide a better sound stage closer together so perhaps you don't have to go all the way to where the dash and door meet and could gain a little more room under the dash. I wish I had a wide body to play around with.

Note, I have zero experience with horns, just passing along what I have read.

I am actually pretty interested in horns for myself, so I am tuned in to this thread and I hope you find what your looking for OP.

[Impious 1,476]

Minihorns do not extend as low in frequency as the full size horns. Typically the mini's are only good down to 1100-1200hz, which is still low enough to match a good 8" driver to for a stout 2way while offering you the increased efficiency for high output. You would not want to mount them on top of the dash.

If you did some checking around on ID's forum, you should be able to find some info on how well Mini's would fit in your body style of vehicle.

[///M5 2,833]

I have an 02 Silverado and don't think it would be so hard in my truck. Once you take your interior out once you will see what you will be cutting. Not such a big deal. A simple mock up with a cardboard box would go a long way towards letting you see that. As Impious said, mini-horns will still get you the output just won't dig as low.