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Help me pick out some tweeters

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Impious and M5 have given a great description here on understanding sound better in general, my questions is this if your looking for loud vocals nothing more (using a mid will obviously cover the mid bass) what would you suggest in like say a $200 max price range? power would be something like a sundown100.4 if size really is an issue 8inch or less really just trying to up the vocals an clarity of the over highs, mine currently are a bit scratchy at higher volumes.

Currently I have looked into the Image Dynamics HLCD CD1 Mini cheapest I found them was $279 which is a little more then I wanted to spend, so I guess more so I would be looking for cheaper alternatives, if these will do the job without a doubt then I may just consider spending the money an getting these. Any more advice or better description of the SOLE purpose of the HLCDs would be great. From my brief understanding the horns will reproduce vocals with high clarity because of their design and they do also cover a wide freq range.

The CD1-EMH cost wise at $189.95, but I dont know how well they stack up against the normal CD1 by the description they sound good, but I dont want to throw $189.95 out the window either, any expert help would be greatly appreciated.

Edited by jmanjr

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Horns will cover only the upper register and harmonics of the voices and you'll need to pair them with something serious on the bottom end.

You do cite one thing that isn't really right and that is that your mid will take care of your midbass. Of course in my vehicles it will, but I exclusively care about accurate reproduction and only to reference levels, not killing my hearing. In the case of efficient mids they rarely can play low enough to cover any midbass. Many can't even cover the whole midrange, but of course that is a bit of a subjective definition but I base mine on something very simple and that is the required frequencies of the instruments/vocals I am listening to. I listen to jazz so you can figure out what that definition translates into rather easily, but again why bother. For the case of the OP, I'd change it to the male vocal range with some adaptations.

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That makes perfect sense, so let me ask this, if you already had 2 comp sets in your vehicle and you were looking for that loud vocal clarity like the OP is talking about, would you achieve that goal by adding the ID CD1s to your excisting front stage? How would it help or hurt what you currently have? What kind of options do you face with this setup? What if you kept the mid and crossover, deleted the tweeter from the comp set out of the picture and replaced them with the ID CD1s giving you the mid, crossover, and horn setup? Basically I want to cure the rather harsh scratchy sound I believe I get from the tweeters at higher volumes. M5 I like your informative response they are great. Let me ask you this as well if you were trying to produce (not personally, just spl related example 150db on music in the OPs application) the LOUD vocals with clarity for lets say $350 tops what would you suggest?

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The first half of your question is too open. As with any topic, stating your goals is much better than anything else as everything is based on compromises and there is no golden setup.

The second portion is fine, but severely limited by the $350. To put it in perspective I would argue you should balance your spending. IE spend the same on the front stage and your sub setup, or at least similar money. That being said getting 150dB out of your front stage for $350 isn't going to happen, but it won't out of your subs either.

The other problem I have with your question is that you asked me what I would do. Even if my goal was an SPL setup I'd still focus on the front stage. So a more generic answer is that I'd put a few midbass drivers in the front, one pro audio midrange per side and some horns. Obviously I killed your budget by 2x in the processing alone, but it is what I would do. The next question is if I were budget limited what would I cut first? The ultra high and ultra low frequencies. Again the focus should be on the portion of the frequency range that you are interested in listening to. Jazz at 150dB makes no sense btw.

If you want me to rank what I'd give up first, no problem. I'd yank the midbasses and have my subs fill in as they are more efficient at it anyways. Next I'd cut the horns. Using a normal tweeter at a significantly higher pass than 2x Fs will allow it to do more as long as one is chosen with some thermal capabilities. (ie, cross it really high and let the mid do the work to save it)

My other problem is that I'd also want it to stage. Just making noise is sort of like declaring you have a small pecker to me. If it doesn't sound good and is only good for showing off then really what made you want to do it? Obviously if ALL OUT competition is your goal then winning should be the priority above all else, but if it is for something for you to drive around and listen to then you should really step back and TRULY evaluate your goals. That is always the first step in making any plan, and not just for car audio but for life. Probably the single biggest difference between successful people and non-successful ones. Using your car stereo as a learning mechanism for this isn't a bad idea ;)

Oh and I would NEVER have two comp sets in any vehicle. I made that mistake once and put a second set in the rear, but dang was that a waste of money.

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Yeah haha.. when looking at so many options, any of them start to look good lol

Thanks for clearing that up for me, i'm looking into the HLCD mini CD1E right now. I read they take 75 watts, but i'm thinking about putting 125 watts to them. Do you think it'd be too much? I don't, but i don't know much about them.

What kind of horns do you have?

Just make sure you are looking into the CD1eV3 and not the CD1eV2 (or lower). The difference is the CD1eV3 uses an actual compression driver, the previous versions had used a cheap piezo driver. Beyond that, I really don't know a whole lot about the new CD1eV3's as they are newer and not a lot of info is on the website about them. Rumor has it they are just a minor step below the previous CD1Pro's, which if true would make them fairly decent horns. The minibodies usually can't be crossed quite as low as the full size equivalents, but I don't think the CD1eV3's were meant to be crossed below 1200hz regardless, which is typically the area the minibodies are crossed over at anyways (the higher level full bodies are usually pretty good down to 800hz or so).

As for power......you won't need that much. There's a difference between power handling, and what your ears can handle ;) I don't know the efficiency of the CD1eV3's, but if they are comparable to the older CD1Pro's then their sensitivity would be in the neighborhood of 105db. If you put a true 75w to a 105db sensitive HLCD, the output would theoretically be ~124db. This doesn't sound like a lot when you're listening to 150db+ of subbass.....but the ear is much more sensitive at the frequency range HLCD's play. 124db would be enough to deafen you, literally. That said; there is nothing wrong with using an amplifier rated at 125w.....but don't expect to need to use anywhere close to all of that power.

I've had Illusion Audio CH-1 and Image Dynamics CD2Neo's in my car. If you look around used, you can normally find the CD2's (with various diaphragms) for pretty fair prices.

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The sensitivity of the human ear sucks, the best bandwidth is between 1,000 and 5,000 Hz, with a pretty steep rolloff below 1,000, so his 150+ subbass doesn't do as much damage as people think, it's pouring midwoofers in there that will take out his hearing.

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What kind of power should I give them if not 75+? I'd like to run all Sundown amps if I could, how do you think it'd be with using the 2.125 and keep the gain low?

Thanks for the information on the different models and why the v3 is better, would it be worth it to get the pros if not the V3s.. Is there a big step up in performance between the two? How do you like your CD2s?

Also do you know some good cross over points for the CD1ev3? I know it varys instal to instal, but some starting points would be great :)

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The sensitivity of the human ear sucks, the best bandwidth is between 1,000 and 5,000 Hz, with a pretty steep rolloff below 1,000, so his 150+ subbass doesn't do as much damage as people think, it's pouring midwoofers in there that will take out his hearing.

Since you seem so sure perhaps you should give us a dissertation on how hearing response is related to hearing damage....or spend sometime looking and then you will realize how absurd and inappropriate your conclusion is. Flat out wrong in fact. 150db even at 50Hz is very damaging. Hearing you NEVER get back either.

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What kind of power should I give them if not 75+? I'd like to run all Sundown amps if I could, how do you think it'd be with using the 2.125 and keep the gain low?

Thanks for the information on the different models and why the v3 is better, would it be worth it to get the pros if not the V3s.. Is there a big step up in performance between the two? How do you like your CD2s?

Also do you know some good cross over points for the CD1ev3? I know it varys instal to instal, but some starting points would be great :)

As Brad stated you could use 200w+ it doesn't matter, just use the gain knob for its actual purpose. Headroom is never your enemy. Go ahead and run Sundown.

As for where to cross them? The lower you go, the more vocals you will get out of them and have to rely less on other drivers. Considering nothing else is near the sensitivity that is your goal. Of course you go too low and you will blow them so you can either be conservative, use your ears and REALLY listen, or just set them high and have no concerns.

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The sensitivity of the human ear sucks, the best bandwidth is between 1,000 and 5,000 Hz, with a pretty steep rolloff below 1,000, so his 150+ subbass doesn't do as much damage as people think, it's pouring midwoofers in there that will take out his hearing.

Since you seem so sure perhaps you should give us a dissertation on how hearing response is related to hearing damage....or spend sometime looking and then you will realize how absurd and inappropriate your conclusion is. Flat out wrong in fact. 150db even at 50Hz is very damaging. Hearing you NEVER get back either.

Sean by no means did I say it was not bad, SPL at those levels will never be good for hearing, but there is a big difference in the damage caused to the ear by 150 decibels at sub-bass frequencies vs. mid frequencies that our ears are the most sensitive to.

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What kind of power should I give them if not 75+? I'd like to run all Sundown amps if I could, how do you think it'd be with using the 2.125 and keep the gain low?

Thanks for the information on the different models and why the v3 is better, would it be worth it to get the pros if not the V3s.. Is there a big step up in performance between the two? How do you like your CD2s?

Also do you know some good cross over points for the CD1ev3? I know it varys instal to instal, but some starting points would be great :)

You could find a used 100.2

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The sensitivity of the human ear sucks, the best bandwidth is between 1,000 and 5,000 Hz, with a pretty steep rolloff below 1,000, so his 150+ subbass doesn't do as much damage as people think, it's pouring midwoofers in there that will take out his hearing.

Since you seem so sure perhaps you should give us a dissertation on how hearing response is related to hearing damage....or spend sometime looking and then you will realize how absurd and inappropriate your conclusion is. Flat out wrong in fact. 150db even at 50Hz is very damaging. Hearing you NEVER get back either.

Sean by no means did I say it was not bad, SPL at those levels will never be good for hearing, but there is a big difference in the damage caused to the ear by 150 decibels at sub-bass frequencies vs. mid frequencies that our ears are the most sensitive to.

Again, you aren't thinking or reading what I typed. Answer this VERY simple question. What is the correlation between sensitivity and damage causing potential? Once you research that you will understand how flawed your logic is.

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M5 awsome response to my last post. So let me ask you this What would you suggest for Midbass drivers, Pro Audio drivers, Horns, Tweets, Crossovers, the only issue is this You have an open ended budget, your goal is LOUD Vocals, and the cheapest route possible, but still obviously obtaining the goal. As well as listing what you would go with on the $350 tops budget product wise. I know the budget is kind of two sided, but feel free to have fun with it, links would be awsome as well, this may help the OP an myself.

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M5 awsome response to my last post. So let me ask you this What would you suggest for Midbass drivers, Pro Audio drivers, Horns, Tweets, Crossovers, the only issue is this You have an open ended budget, your goal is LOUD Vocals, and the cheapest route possible, but still obviously obtaining the goal. As well as listing what you would go with on the $350 tops budget product wise. I know the budget is kind of two sided, but feel free to have fun with it, links would be awsome as well, this may help the OP an myself.

Ha, that is far from a trival question and there is no one answer. It will always depend on your ears, your car, your mounting locations, installation skills and so on. The one thing that would be easy for me to answer is the processing. Personally the Alpine H701 with a touchscreen is the only way I'd attempt a three way like this. There are plenty of other options but having control right at the drivers seat is exactly what I'd want.

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That is a solid unit. So you personally would go active obviously, so can you at least throw out some ideas of budgest mids, pro audio drivers, an tweets?

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That is a solid unit. So you personally would go active obviously, so can you at least throw out some ideas of budgest mids, pro audio drivers, an tweets?

Start your own topic so you can get answers geared to your needs and application since your looking for products to fit your taste. Also go do some research and make a list of the drivers in the categories you desire and bring it back for someone to evaluate. This will help you get better and more detailed responses.

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Not problem, but my goal is the same as the Ops, just trying to get more ideas.

And your car is different, your install skills are different, your knowledge is different, and your tuning capability is different. ALL of those items make MUCH more of a difference than which drivers you use.

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What kind of power should I give them if not 75+? I'd like to run all Sundown amps if I could, how do you think it'd be with using the 2.125 and keep the gain low?

Thanks for the information on the different models and why the v3 is better, would it be worth it to get the pros if not the V3s.. Is there a big step up in performance between the two? How do you like your CD2s?

Also do you know some good cross over points for the CD1ev3? I know it varys instal to instal, but some starting points would be great :)

You could find a used 100.2

But.. that would still be giving them 75 watts a piece, no?

Any input on my response about keeping gain low on 125.2

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What kind of power should I give them if not 75+? I'd like to run all Sundown amps if I could, how do you think it'd be with using the 2.125 and keep the gain low?

The drivers are likely 8ohm.....so a 125w @ 4ohm amp would only put about 60w to the horns at full tilt. Still way more than you'll need, but no reason not to use the amp otherwise. It will work fine.

Just for reference, I had 50wpc @ 8ohm on my CD2's, the gain turned all the way down and still had to set the level on the processor to -12 (the lowest it would go without completely muting that channel) in order to keep the output in check......just to give you an idea of how little power you need to use with a true HLCD. Really at normal listening levels, you'll use less than 1w of power. At full balls to the wall....horns are capable of enough output to literally deafen you while still being within their rated thermal power handling (which is why I've never understood why HLCD haven't caught on with the SPL crowd, instead of those stupid bullet tweeters).

Thanks for the information on the different models and why the v3 is better, would it be worth it to get the pros if not the V3s.. Is there a big step up in performance between the two? How do you like your CD2s?

"Big" is subjective. There are a lot of different versions of the CD2's (mylar diaphragm, titanium diaphragm, Neo version ,etc) so differences will be relative. But the CD2 can play lower, probably has a little better performance thru the midrange and may have a little more top end extension depending on the specific driver used.

Also do you know some good cross over points for the CD1ev3?

1200hz, steep slope (24db/oct).

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What kind of power should I give them if not 75+? I'd like to run all Sundown amps if I could, how do you think it'd be with using the 2.125 and keep the gain low?

The drivers are likely 8ohm.....so a 125w @ 4ohm amp would only put about 60w to the horns at full tilt. Still way more than you'll need, but no reason not to use the amp otherwise. It will work fine.

Just for reference, I had 50wpc @ 8ohm on my CD2's, the gain turned all the way down and still had to set the level on the processor to -12 (the lowest it would go without completely muting that channel) in order to keep the output in check......just to give you an idea of how little power you need to use with a true HLCD. Really at normal listening levels, you'll use less than 1w of power. At full balls to the wall....horns are capable of enough output to literally deafen you while still being within their rated thermal power handling (which is why I've never understood why HLCD haven't caught on with the SPL crowd, instead of those stupid bullet tweeters).

That is intense that they have that much output on such little power! Don't you think it will be different though with my sub bass in the mix? It drowns out a lot, more then most would imagine.

I completely forgot about the possibility of horns being 8ohms lol oops. So, i could use a Sundown 125.2 and still be okay, right?

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You are going to be midbass/midrange challenged much more so than bass or treble. That will determine what you use for an amp and how it is set, nothing else.

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As stated above the 125.2 will be fine, if you havent heard a high sensitivity driver then you dont understand how little of power you need to get them loud. Considering the efficiency on your mids, your gonna need to keep the gains down on the sundown thats powering your highs if you want to hear the words/midbass in the songs that are coming out of your mids.

In my eyes I dont see the horns having a problem keeping up with your 150db level, its gonna be your mids buddy. Expecting to hear any midbass will almost be impossible at full tilt with or without headphones on. I can see you turning up the gains on the horns to compensate for the mids so I would think about changing mids as I was telling you in the previous chat we had. I know you like the AA carbons but they might not be the ones for your application with your listening levels.

Coming from someone who has some experience with playing with high sensitivity drivers; you will damage a lot of mids if they cant keep up with the tweeters and vice versa especially with a low experience level with that particular equipment. No offense just what I went through and passing it along.

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Thanks for the input guys, today i'm finishing up my doors and i'll see how they AA Carbons perform along with my sub bass. I'm going to change the settings on the head unit in the AAs favor also.

Jay-Cee i got you PM, i'm going to finish my install up and then get back with you.

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No problem at all, take your time man.

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