Time Alignment and Me.

[jmanjr 0]

I can understand the over-lapping vs under-lapping, but I dont see (looked online) how have just 2 midsbass and 2 horns would create a huge problem?

[///M5 2,833]

LOL I actually like the idea of the midbass an horns, I was talking to julian about it yesterday, (dont torch me for this m5 ) But basically what your going to need to do is pick items that cover the Freqs fairly solid, I have a good link to better explain alot of this if wanted, but from the basics here is the info the Low end can cover 30hz-60hz (thats going to be box dependent obviously) your midbass can take over at/be set on the low side at 55hz-2500hz then the horns will/can take over be set at 2300-18000 and that should be a good starting point The overlaping of the set points from my understanding will help things sound uh smoother or warmer if you will. When you get this all setup find the flat settings having access to RTA should be the solid way for doing this without spending 2k+ for actually equipment/programs to do this 100% proper. The Eq obviously will play a huge roll as well, but this is mainly to satisfy your wants so your eq settings are going to be to your liking nobody else so personally I think you should get it flat and write that down (unless its digital and has set points) then move from there, if you get it all dicked up and out of whack just go back to the flat settings an start fresh again until you get where you are totally happy and understand this can take several hours maybe days to get just right for your setup.

If you read the thread, that is nearly exactly what we are recommending. You got a little lost in the details though.

-no real midbass will play to 2500Hz, my favorite bang for the buck driver has a hard time hitting 300Hz which means you are compromising a bit in the driver. Nonetheless there are choices.

-For systems with output as the goal, having the subs play higher is no big deal and beneficial as they are more efficient by default than anything else you can use based on cone area

-ANY decent horn can play WAY below 2300Hz, some down under 1kHz even

-Overlapping can be a terrible idea much more often than a good one. And no it will do the opposite from being "warmer or smoother"

-RTA's really shouldn't be used EXCEPT for to find anomalies, definitely not for setting up your system. You should set it up for yourself and not for some computer

-EQ in general should not be to satisfy your "wants" but to remove the anomalies. Your "wants" should be solved in your installation.

-Flat sounds like ass, always

-You should generically speaking never use an eq to "move up from there" but to pull things down. EQ's are for making cuts, not boost.

-I would say several weeks, not hours or days.

The recommendation of using a midbass or better yet a dynamically capable midrange and a horn is the ONLY solution for getting loud, maintaining a stage, and still sounding good. Multiple drivers playing high frequencies is always a bad idea and a hell of a compromise in the wrong direction.

Probably a cancellation issue, too many speakers playing the same frequencies. Sean will chime in though, don't quote me.

quoted

I couldn't see this staging well. I may be very wrong though and it may stage amazingly.

You know I said the truck would stage... but I NEVER said WELL ... wtf bro ?? I would NEVER put that system in competition.

So far I've read is adding horns under the dash ... nothing about driver positioning ... how is this going to help your stage ??

What do you mean by stage but not very well, that makes absolutely no sense...unless you have a seriously jacked definition of stage.

The horns will help significantly for a multitude of reason. A L/R point source will ALWAYS be easier to make cohesive than multiple point sources, the horns even under the dash will be as high if not higher than the tweets in the current door, and they can actually be aimed. Basically nearly every aspect of staging will be improved over what he has currently.

THIS was my suggestion ... several post back at the start of this thread ...

2 tweeters set up on each a-pillar crossed over active on the first 2 channels of your 4 channel amp will set up your stage. I'd be willing to bet on it ... And be loud and clear too ...

2 6.5s standing up as high as possible on each door pannel crossed over active on the other 2 channels of your 4 channel amp should enhance your stage and give you powerfull, loud, and clear midbass ... If needed extra midbass, then a pair of 6.5s or 8s in the kick pannels running fullrange on an extra amp ...

I doudt you would need any processing/time alignment at this point if installed properly. Maybe some EQing set up to your liking ... But this is where the best place in the install to give your processing/time alignment a shot ...

All drivers should be (if it was mine) off axis to the listener ... Strong center, deep stage on the dash/hood, and could be very suprising width for that vehicle ...

again, best of luck with your system bro ... Thanks, Randal ..........

And again, your suggestion won't have the dynamic capability that the OP wants. One normal tweet on each side will NOT "keep up" with his subs at all. Rudimentary understanding of sensitivity and power ratings will tell you that. He will definitely still need processing AND your off axis recommendation is not good either. We already went over this though.

I can understand the over-lapping vs under-lapping, but I dont see (looked online) how have just 2 midsbass and 2 horns would create a huge problem?

It won't.

[jmanjr 0]

very informative reply sean thanks for taking the time and hitting on certain points you learn all the time.

[///M5 2,833]

very informative reply sean thanks for taking the time and hitting on certain points you learn all the time.

No worries, the day I stop learning is the day I die. Hope to help others continue as well.

[Sir-Lancelot 216]

Going to be hard to have any real midbass doing what you want. Best you can do is pick an efficient mid that can play low like the B&C mids. You can have some midbass if you EQ up at lower volumes, but you are going to have to back off that when you crank it up as PA drivers dont have the XMAX for a lot of excursion. When I see reviews from people on certain drivers claiming good midbass, I have to wonder if they even know what midbass is. A 3 way set up would be ideal, but you are getting into a very difficult task to pull off then.

I prefer my set up to be underlapped. I have found you get a frequency boost between the HP/LP so to me it sounds better with some gap between the mids and tweeters. I have never set crossover points at 2000 for mids and 2000 for tweeters for example. Way too bright for me at that frequency and those above and below. I set them a little apart from each other and change the slopes to blend them.

I may get put in my place with with my comments by people who know more about it than I do and thats ok, I am always learning.

That is how I set it up tho.

I do not have horns, i am running B&C mids with super tweeters and I have it sounding good right now. Not great mind you, but loud and clear and that was the goal. The ST's are too bright and i have to back WAY off the gains and level to get them where they sound ok, but they were easier to set up than horns and MUCH less money. That said, I feel sure in the near future I will buy some horns to try in my truck too. Too many people have good things to say about them to ignore. However, to say you cant have a decent sound without horns is false. It is not plug and play and requires work, but they can sound good with some effort.

Flame on.

[///M5 2,833]

However, to say you cant have a decent sound without horns is false. It is not plug and play and requires work, but they can sound good with some effort.

Decent sound is subjective. I guarantee your vehicle wouldn't please me.

Considering the OP's goals a midbass should be better than a highly efficient mid, but it will then require a butt-ton of power. Underlapping between a horn and a midbass can sometimes make up the difference and not be so important for his goals. There are subs/midbasses that can play high enough to not even need to and as long as they have the thermal and excursion potential to do what is necessary they might work better than a pro mid. In your case it is different as your tweeters cannot dig anywhere near where a horn can, so using a screaming bullet tweet does require that solution.

edit: I dig the 8NDL51's so don't take that wrong

[Impious 1,476]

So far I've read is adding horns under the dash ... nothing about driver positioning ... how is this going to help your stage ??

Horns will help the stage in several ways.

First, because of where the drivers are mounted the pathlengths between the left and right compression drivers will be fairly well equalized, which is important because the frequencies the horn will be playing will still be sensitive to time arrival.

Second, the controlled directivity of the horns will create a more even power response than conventional drivers in conventional setups, which is an important factor to creating an accurate soundstage.

Having the majority of the midrange originate from a single source can aid in creating more coherence in the sound as it solves some issues that can occur from having a crossover point right in mist of the critical midrange frequencies. This can go a long way to improving the sound stage.

The output of the horns will only be matched by using multiples of any other driver that covers the same frequency range. Having a single driver compared to several will eliminate a large portion of the constructive/destructive interference issues that occur by using multiple drivers covering the same frequency range. Eliminating those FR issues will also go a long way to improving the sound stage.

Horns use the lower portion of the dash as basically an extension of the horn body itself, allowing the horns to create a nice, high sound stage even though the drivers are located lower in the vehicle.

Those are just a few of the advantages. Horns can stage and image extremely well when setup properly, which is one of his goals. His other goal is to obtain high output levels, of which there is no better option than HLCD. And using horns instead of multiple drivers helps eliminate many potential issues.

So, in short......horns would meet his every goal without most of the compromises of the other options, namely using multiple tweeters.

[bassahaulic 155]

Can someone show me some properly installed horns? And link me to some good high quality horns? I know some have already, but do it again to humor me.

I would have no idea how to work with them.

[Impious 1,476]

http://usdaudio.com/sw/cars/

http://www.imagedynamicsusa.com/forum/index.php?app=gallery

http://usdaudio.com/products/wg.php

http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.brands&category_id=24&brand_ID=36

Or, buy these:

http://www.woofersetc.com/p5014/CD-HORN--Image-Dynamics-V2-Fullsize-Horn.htm

And pick a compression driver from here:

http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?searchFilter=COMPRESSION+DRIVER&srchExt=&perPage=25&sortBy=1&layout=list&page=1&srchPrice=&srchCat=279&srchMfg=&srchPromo=&srchAttr=

Or look for used horns in the classifieds of various forums.

[bassahaulic 155]

I will certainly looking into them. I have an ID dealer close to me so I may ride over to see what they have.

Another question I have is, Since I am running active, how do I know where to set my crossover points? I feel now like they are WAY wrong. What is an average setting for them, I know it won't be exactly what I need but it will give me a starting point.

[dvalue 17]

I will certainly looking into them. I have an ID dealer close to me so I may ride over to see what they have.

Another question I have is, Since I am running active, how do I know where to set my crossover points? I feel now like they are WAY wrong. What is an average setting for them, I know it won't be exactly what I need but it will give me a starting point.

You sure you wanna go there?

[jcarter1885 995]

http://usdaudio.com/sw/cars/

http://www.imagedynamicsusa.com/forum/index.php?app=gallery

http://usdaudio.com/products/wg.php

http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.brands&category_id=24&brand_ID=36

Or, buy these:

http://www.woofersetc.com/p5014/CD-HORN--Image-Dynamics-V2-Fullsize-Horn.htm

And pick a compression driver from here:

http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?searchFilter=COMPRESSION+DRIVER&srchExt=&perPage=25&sortBy=1&layout=list&page=1&srchPrice=&srchCat=279&srchMfg=&srchPromo=&srchAttr=

Or look for used horns in the classifieds of various forums.

Hey Brad whats the difference if any between these four horns, the B&C and Selenium are Titanium while the RCF's are Aluminum. Looking to match them up with the mini-horn bodies. Dont mean to thread jack but this should help others as well when mating horns with horn bodies:

B&C DE500-8

Selenium D2500Ti-Nd-8

Radian 450PB-8

Radian 475PB-8

[///M5 2,833]

I will certainly looking into them. I have an ID dealer close to me so I may ride over to see what they have.

Another question I have is, Since I am running active, how do I know where to set my crossover points? I feel now like they are WAY wrong. What is an average setting for them, I know it won't be exactly what I need but it will give me a starting point.

Probably are way wrong. How did you set them up?

Btw, there is no "average" setting which is exactly why active setups aren't so great the first time out. I would expect that 9 out of 10 people could take a passive set and turn them into active and make them sound much, much worse. The 1 in 10 would have the opposite result. The short answer to your starting point is to listen to each driver independently and figure out where they sound good up/down to (frequency domain). Then to start experimenting with combinations between the two drivers. Don't forget to add phase, eq, and t/a to the mix and don't expect what sounds best alone will sound best together. It can take weeks of tuning for it to really get dialed in, but with a scientific approach of eliminating variables you should be able to surpass a passive integration within a few hours. The last 5% is the hardest part...and most important.

Hey Brad whats the difference if any between these four horns, the B&C and Selenium are Titanium while the RCF's are Aluminum. Looking to match them up with the mini-horn bodies. Dont mean to thread jack but this should help others as well when mating horns with horn bodies:

B&C DE500-8

Selenium D2500Ti-Nd-8

Radian 450PB-8

Radian 475PB-8

Different responses and trade-offs. The question you ask is like asking what is the difference between the Seas Neo and the LPG. Not particularly easy to answer. In the case of normal tweeters it is easier actually as they aren't going to be horn loaded which will further change the answer. The biggest difference is you are comparing a great brand, a shitty brand, and one I have hardly no experience with. Generically speaking looking at that list I'd buy the B&C's but not for technical or objective reasons, but historical as I have been regularly impressed with their drivers. I would say the opposite about Selenium.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

I'm just wary of the horns. I've never heard a good sounding set.

Probably never heard a set that someone took the time to actually tune. They're not a simple "drop-in" proposition. You actually have to work with the EQ to get them to sound right. Once they are tuned right, though, the relatively effortless output and dynamics are truly impressive.

The best set I heard were one of the original ID horns (cannot remember the model number) with a mono 31-band EQ on each. They were sunk down into the defrost vent at the top of the dash. Seemed like my head was on the edge of a concert stage, it was that good. I have always wanted to try myself. Just have not had the play money or nerve to do it.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

I couldn't see this staging well. I may be very wrong though and it may stage amazingly.

The fact that he went RD is auto fail.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Probably a cancellation issue, too many speakers playing the same frequencies. Sean will chime in though, don't quote me.

Quoted

The only reason people think there is a need for 3000000000 mids in a door is either 1. To show off their fiberglassing skills 2. or their forum dicks will look bigger.

I saw the black Hummer install in person, (first install ala T3 Ed), what a hot mess that was.

[Impious 1,476]

http://usdaudio.com/sw/cars/

http://www.imagedyna...php?app=gallery

http://usdaudio.com/products/wg.php

http://www.wooferset...=24&brand_ID=36

Or, buy these:

http://www.wooferset...llsize-Horn.htm

And pick a compression driver from here:

http://www.parts-exp...romo=&srchAttr=

Or look for used horns in the classifieds of various forums.

Hey Brad whats the difference if any between these four horns, the B&C and Selenium are Titanium while the RCF's are Aluminum. Looking to match them up with the mini-horn bodies. Dont mean to thread jack but this should help others as well when mating horns with horn bodies:

B&C DE500-8

Selenium D2500Ti-Nd-8

Radian 450PB-8

Radian 475PB-8

Like Sean said; the differences are going to be as vast as they are with any other driver. There are going to be difference in frequency response, distortion characteristics, sensitivity, adequate crossover frequencies, etc.

I have zero experience with Selenium.

I've had both the B&C DE500 (in the form of ID CD2Neo horns) and the Radian 450PB (on my Illusion CH1 horns), though they were used on different horn bodies and several years apart so I couldn't even try to make a direct comparison other than to say they are both good and well respected drivers. The 475 is (obviously) supposed to be a little better driver than the 450. The 475 is slightly more sensitive, and on the spec sheet has slightly better rated high frequency extension, and slightly more power handling than the 450. The Radian's also have a slightly lower recommended crossover point than the DE500 and slightly higher rated sensitivity. I wouldn't try to compare the FR measurements on the manufacturer paper as they are fairly obviously different measurement styles. VC diameter is pretty much equivalent between them, but the DE500 has slightly higher rated power handling (though I don't know if rating methods are the same). Really, there's not much info for me to give you any hard-n-fast better/worse differences.

Just from personal experience I would feel comfortable recommending either the B&C or the Radians.

[bassahaulic 155]

12 years later, oh how things change.