2k vs 3k on BTL N2

[nick_19 1]

I'm going to be powering a BTL N2 15 soon enough and have never owned a BTL before. I'm not asking "how many wattz to make my sub thump," I'm more or less asking if, for daily applications in 4.5 cu ft tuned to 30 hz, the extra 1k watts will make a difference/if the BTL can handle sustained power for a long period of time. Also, I will have an Autocraft Gold batt with a 200 amp h/o alt and Big 3 in 1/0. So please just give me some opinions/what you would do. Thanks all!

Edited December 12, 2010 by nick_19

[nick_19 1]

225 amp alt*****

My bad.

[emh9009 199]

It may make a diff. on the meter, but probably not to your ear. The general rule is that you need to double your power to notice anything. It's going to depend on box, install, person yada yada yada. But i would say not worth the strain on the electrical.

[emh9009 199]

And who is to say you wont be happy with 2k? Could be too much even, never know.

[emh9009 199]

Just read your other post. You've already been told, and form what i saw, agreed to run the 2kD why make another thread?

[nick_19 1]

Just read your other post. You've already been told, and form what i saw, agreed to run the 2kD why make another thread?

Because I'm indecisive. There I asked on 1 amp vs 2 amps basically; more of a general/universal standard. Here I am asking more about the BTL and it's capabilities. I don't want to leave the sub asking for more power if it can comfortably take it. I don't really know much about the daily capabilities of the BTL and was just wondering. I don't treat my subs like trash, but I do like to use them to their full potential.

PS - sorry, I don't mean to sound rude and am not trying to double post. I really did mean for the 2 threads to pose different questions.

Edited December 13, 2010 by nick_19

[Adrian_D 520]

In the right hands and box it can handle it. Worth it ? I don't think so...an extra 1000w strain on the electrical system is not worth it. Just increase the box volume and you're sorted !

[ford302redneck 15]

Increase the box? He already said 4.5 cuft. Honestly I think I can tell to my ear 1000watt difference. I've used a termlab and my ears can hear .5 differences. Did a blind test, just to see.

But that's just me. Everybodies ears are different.

IMO a fully loaded BTL isn't gonna shine on 2000watts like I think it would on 3000watts. Its a personal choice on exactly how loud you want your setup.

[Impious 1,476]

Maximum you're looking at a difference of 1.76db.

That's before accounting for power compression, which at 2-3kw is going to be significant. Easily significant enough to knock that 1.76db well below the 1db mark. Which means no difference to the ear.

Worth it? Not in a setup designed primarily to listen to music with. Definitely not with the added cost of the amplifier and electrical upgrades.

If you plan on hitting the comp circuit on the weekends then yes it might be a worthwhile upgrade.

[Impious 1,476]

Increase the box? He already said 4.5 cuft. Honestly I think I can tell to my ear 1000watt difference. I've used a termlab and my ears can hear .5 differences. Did a blind test, just to see.

But that's just me. Everybodies ears are different.

I don't have full details of your test methods, but I would that you could hear a .5db difference in subbass with a BTL playing at the level of 2-3kw. (or in most circumstances for that matter). In the more sensitive regions of the hearing (midrange, for example) at certain listening levels where your ears aren't being stressed I would agree it's possible for someone to notice a .5db difference, although they probably wouldn't describe it as a difference in volume but rather some other subjective term such as a change in "warmth" or "detail". But in the subbass, especially at high listening levels.....no, probably not.

Chances are I could keep playing the same test tone over and over at the same SPL and you'd think you were hearing differences.....especially if you were expecting there to be differences. Unless there were extremely stringent testing conditions maintained, over a multitude of test sessions to verify results, and correct interpretation of the results (you could simply guess and average a right answer 50% of the time) then you probably didn't test anything at all.

[ford302redneck 15]

Increase the box? He already said 4.5 cuft. Honestly I think I can tell to my ear 1000watt difference. I've used a termlab and my ears can hear .5 differences. Did a blind test, just to see.

But that's just me. Everybodies ears are different.

I don't have full details of your test methods, but I would that you could hear a .5db difference in subbass with a BTL playing at the level of 2-3kw. (or in most circumstances for that matter). In the more sensitive regions of the hearing (midrange, for example) at certain listening levels where your ears aren't being stressed I would agree it's possible for someone to notice a .5db difference, although they probably wouldn't describe it as a difference in volume but rather some other subjective term such as a change in "warmth" or "detail". But in the subbass, especially at high listening levels.....no, probably not.

Chances are I could keep playing the same test tone over and over at the same SPL and you'd think you were hearing differences.....especially if you were expecting there to be differences. Unless there were extremely stringent testing conditions maintained, over a multitude of test sessions to verify results, and correct interpretation of the results (you could simply guess and average a right answer 50% of the time) then you probably didn't test anything at all.

Sorry I didn't lay my test out for everybody else. This was personal.

I'm sorry I can tell differences. That 3dbs to hear a noticeable is bullshit to me.

My test was at 45hz and around 140-145dbs. Done right at 15 tests. And I guessed right every time. Now it could be different at 150dbs and so on.

But I just stated I can hear the difference of a 1000watts I'm sure.

But it could be different details I am hearing that makes it seems its louder or quieter. But regardless I could tell. Also this was a setup I've listened to quiet a lot, which could of effected the outcome.

Now somebodies setup I hear today then again next week, I can't tell a difference.

[///M5 2,833]

Increase the box? He already said 4.5 cuft. Honestly I think I can tell to my ear 1000watt difference. I've used a termlab and my ears can hear .5 differences. Did a blind test, just to see.

But that's just me. Everybodies ears are different.

I don't have full details of your test methods, but I would that you could hear a .5db difference in subbass with a BTL playing at the level of 2-3kw. (or in most circumstances for that matter). In the more sensitive regions of the hearing (midrange, for example) at certain listening levels where your ears aren't being stressed I would agree it's possible for someone to notice a .5db difference, although they probably wouldn't describe it as a difference in volume but rather some other subjective term such as a change in "warmth" or "detail". But in the subbass, especially at high listening levels.....no, probably not.

Chances are I could keep playing the same test tone over and over at the same SPL and you'd think you were hearing differences.....especially if you were expecting there to be differences. Unless there were extremely stringent testing conditions maintained, over a multitude of test sessions to verify results, and correct interpretation of the results (you could simply guess and average a right answer 50% of the time) then you probably didn't test anything at all.

Sorry I didn't lay my test out for everybody else. This was personal.

I'm sorry I can tell differences. That 3dbs to hear a noticeable is bullshit to me.

My test was at 45hz and around 140-145dbs. Done right at 15 tests. And I guessed right every time. Now it could be different at 150dbs and so on.

But I just stated I can hear the difference of a 1000watts I'm sure.

But it could be different details I am hearing that makes it seems its louder or quieter. But regardless I could tell. Also this was a setup I've listened to quiet a lot, which could of effected the outcome.

Now somebodies setup I hear today then again next week, I can't tell a difference.

Of course you can, psychoacoustics explain more than just that btw.

[Impious 1,476]

Increase the box? He already said 4.5 cuft. Honestly I think I can tell to my ear 1000watt difference. I've used a termlab and my ears can hear .5 differences. Did a blind test, just to see.

But that's just me. Everybodies ears are different.

I don't have full details of your test methods, but I would that you could hear a .5db difference in subbass with a BTL playing at the level of 2-3kw. (or in most circumstances for that matter). In the more sensitive regions of the hearing (midrange, for example) at certain listening levels where your ears aren't being stressed I would agree it's possible for someone to notice a .5db difference, although they probably wouldn't describe it as a difference in volume but rather some other subjective term such as a change in "warmth" or "detail". But in the subbass, especially at high listening levels.....no, probably not.

Chances are I could keep playing the same test tone over and over at the same SPL and you'd think you were hearing differences.....especially if you were expecting there to be differences. Unless there were extremely stringent testing conditions maintained, over a multitude of test sessions to verify results, and correct interpretation of the results (you could simply guess and average a right answer 50% of the time) then you probably didn't test anything at all.

Sorry I didn't lay my test out for everybody else. This was personal.

I'm sorry I can tell differences. That 3dbs to hear a noticeable is bullshit to me.

My test was at 45hz and around 140-145dbs. Done right at 15 tests. And I guessed right every time. Now it could be different at 150dbs and so on.

But I just stated I can hear the difference of a 1000watts I'm sure.

But it could be different details I am hearing that makes it seems its louder or quieter. But regardless I could tell. Also this was a setup I've listened to quiet a lot, which could of effected the outcome.

Now somebodies setup I hear today then again next week, I can't tell a difference.

No one said anything about 3dbs, did they?

The ability to discern an audible difference in .5db in the subbass where your ears are least sensitive at a level of 140db+ where your ears are under extreme stress themselves would put you well into the realm of superhuman hearing. You should try out for that Stan Lee show on the Discovery Channel.

Or the alternative......is that you didn't test what you think you tested, results aren't valid, and you can't discern a .5db difference under the conditions you described.

Which one sounds more reasonable?

[CrownVic 15]

If hes already got a 225 amp alt, and isn't worried about the budget really than I would go ahead and throw 3k at it, it will take it fine as long as its CLEAN power.

[pdubb 5]

[shizzzon 461]

if when u do multiple tests it is at different frequencies.. then it's a given that the hearing test is 100% invalid. Different frequencies sound louder or quieter than others by far.

We have all been through these threads all the time...

If you have to ask if a sub can take it, regardless if you have ever used a certain companies subs or not, then that means you do not have enough experience to control "potential headroom power" safely.

I ran my last setup with 7x the recommended power to a group of subs ran with a company i never tried before.

People kept telling me- No it wont work.. You'll blow the dust cap off, etc....

Anything can happen in the hands of the inexperienced.

Point being- if you've never done it.. you can either NOT do it and be happy... or do it and gain a lot of negative experience if it gets damaged...

Sometimes, learning all the bad things that can happen from experience will gain you knowledge quicker about control.

It's up to you.

[Adrian_D 520]

Increase the box? He already said 4.5 cuft. Honestly I think I can tell to my ear 1000watt difference. I've used a termlab and my ears can hear .5 differences. Did a blind test, just to see.

But that's just me. Everybodies ears are different.

IMO a fully loaded BTL isn't gonna shine on 2000watts like I think it would on 3000watts. Its a personal choice on exactly how loud you want your setup.

Yeah, you can hear a bit more rattles but that doesn't mean you heard a difference in the bass...

I love the whole "shine" idea...It was just like people telling me my 12 won't get a decent score with 1000w because they "need" 2000w.

[95Honda 486]

Lol, I know about the shine part...

I guess it shines when it is in thermal overload, compressed all to hell and nailing that awesome 10-20% distortion threshold....

[///M5 2,833]

I took the shine to be what he was drinking when he made that post.

[jcarter1885 995]

The times have changed, we went from putting the right equipment into cars and getting the best scores out of what we had to putting 2x or 3x the rms to a subwooferto make it "SHINE". We also have people who believe 18"s are so cool that they should throw 2 of them in a trunk car even if its not the right size box for them. There are also some poeple who believe it will take them 10,000 watts-30,000 watts just to get 1st place trophies or little medallions. Its a new age where buying recones is where its at, so why give rms to a subwoofer when you can fix it for cheap if you mess it up.

[Duran 387]

A love first place trophies and little medallions

[shanesnofear 0]

Idk about the rest of you guys...

If the guy has the money or has the chance to get a 3k over a 2k...

3k all the way...

Plz dont hate but i feel if a subs in a box and it had 2000 watts then bumped too 3000 watts ... i could tell if it was louder or not... thats a 50% gain... on power... I seen all the points that were made about that tho but... thats my view

and its only 50% over powering... I think a btl with no options could take it. Plus its in a ported box... as long as his subsonic and lowpass is set on dial he should never have a problem.. or at least i would hope

( and dont go crazy on me the 50%gain is not spl i was saying the extra 1000 watts is the 50% gain )

Edited December 16, 2010 by shanesnofear

[manrossdamn 57]

Putting up his post^?

:facepalm:

There's a hardly noticable difference, as other intelligent members have stated.

That's your opinion, but they know the actual difference it makes.

Judging by it, you're new to some of this, as am I.

[shanesnofear 0]

wait what about cab gain and things like that.... lets say he got a half db gain... but some notes could gain even more then that depending on his cab....

because i know if you do the math on your watt to db loudness its LOUDER in the car or truck because of the gain...

untell you get into the 150+ db range

Edited December 16, 2010 by shanesnofear

[C4W18 0]

wait what about cab gain and things like that.... lets say he got a half db gain... but some notes could gain even more then that depending on his cab....

because i know if you do the math on your watt to db loudness its LOUDER in the car or truck because of the gain...

untell you get into the 150+ db range

what in the hell are you talking about.