Fosgate Power 2500BD vs Sundown SAZ-2500?

[///M5 2,833]

CEA-2006 specifications are a joke.

Before accepting ANY validity in the Arc measurements knowing what they used for a load and a distortion analyzer is 100% required. Otherwise that could easily be off by a crap ton.

I watched him test a Arc Audio SE4000 also... Pulled 390amps and put out 4100 watts BEFORE..... BEFORE.... and I repeat BEFORE the THD level went above .005! THATS BEFORE IT WENT ABOVE .005% THD. The analyzer they were using was over $40,000 and the power supplies were $22,000 ea... they had 4 of them. Each putting out 290amps.... in the picture you can see the TWO 0 guage lines and ground lines... that was 580 amps of current. Held solid at 14.4v. I saw it all. Their equipment is legit, and there isn't an amp on the planet in the same class of quality and clarity on the same level as the ARC AUDIO SE SERIES " THAT I KNOW OF ". ON TOP OF THAT, the SE4000 they tested is Rated and also put out 4,000 watts @ 12 volts! 12 volts to 14.4v didn't matter, still held a .005% THD level... if not, they don't pass QC....

If that level of testing doesn't tell you anything about their equipment, then IDK... maybe you need to go there for yourself and believe for yourself.....

What analyzer was it? Same with the power supplies, not exactly expensive for lab supplies and yes I know I used to be the Elgar/Sorensen rep. CEA compliance doesn't require any of that btw.

[gcs8 10]

For $2700 that Arc amp would have to give me blow jobs as needed too.

$2700 may be the retail on it, but i'm sure " SUNDOWNZ " understands the cost of and quality of a board to putout over 4,000 watts at less then .09% THD @ 12 VOLTS. it's .005% at 14.4v.... Class H Quality isnt cheap.... Best of the Best.

Actual Tested Rating @ 12 volts (Random Production Unit ser#60026)

1 Channels @ 4 ohms 1198 Watts

1 Channels @ 2 ohms 2311 Watts

1 Channels @ 1 ohms 4366 Watts

THD @ full power 1ohm .09%

* Audiophile sound quality based design

* Designed by Robert Zeff

* Class H switching design

* Microprocessor controlled design

* Microprocessor controlled Code based flashing diagnostics

* Concealed adjustment controls

* 24Db per octave Low pass crossover (Bandwidth limited)

* Internal chassis force cooled speed controlled dual fans for optimum cooling

* Hi/Low level balanced switchblade RCA inputs for maximum system integration

* RJ45 Ethernet input connections for true balanced input connections

* Block type terminal connections

* 256 color user selectable illumination circuit

* Combined Bias circuit and temperature regulation circuit to regulate bias and lower THD at any point in total thermal cycle

* Microprocessor high voltage power supply allows the amplifier to optimize power output at different ohm loads without the loss of efficiency or sound quality

* Vdrive based preamp stage improves efficiency lower internal signal loss

* Hand picked ultra hi voltage output devices used in the SE4000

* 3 stage bank of self branded ultra low ESR 105 degree Celsius caps increase power reserves for each of the amplifiers 6 voltage rails

* massive combined output inductors eliminate any unwanted A/C ripple in the amplifier increasing the amplifiers stability, while lowering the THD and increasing the S/N ratio.

* Equipped with Dual 1/0 Power and Dual 1/0 Ground Screw Down Compression Block Terminals

* Strapable Design allowing for the linking and connection of two units into one single channel of very high power of output- Capable of over 9000 watts at less than 1% distortion + over 10,000 watts at less than 3% distortion.

sexy amp guts.

[eggyhustles 33]

Couldn't you get that amp from ubuy for a fraction of what arc asks for?

[BIGDROCH 1]

What analyzer was it? Same with the power supplies, not exactly expensive for lab supplies and yes I know I used to be the Elgar/Sorensen rep. CEA compliance doesn't require any of that btw.

just for you M5. Not sure if this will stop you from hating already but here it is. I called and this is what they use.

Analyzer = Audio precision System 2 - #2322

Power Supplies = HP 6681A - 500 amps @ 8volts paralleled to 16 volts... x 2!

I don't know shitt about that equipment so why don't you TELL ME about it.

[gcs8 10]

hey droch, do me a favor at least if you get any sundown amps in will you have them tested just so we can see what they show as? at this point its more for curiosity than any thing else.

[BIGDROCH 1]

Couldn't you get that amp from ubuy for a fraction of what arc asks for?

IDK.... how much is it at UBUY? Robert Lynn Owns Ubuy and Arc Audio....

[BIGDROCH 1]

hey droch, do me a favor at least if you get any sundown amps in will you have them tested just so we can see what they show as? at this point its more for curiosity than any thing else.

Ya I can do that GCS8. But i'm not trying to turn this into a contest with Sundown. I'm not against sundown in anyway. I want to try their product for myself.

My Ears the my bass dyno lol

[gcs8 10]

thats all i was asking, no war just want to see how the sundown amps bench.

[BIGDROCH 1]

thats all i was asking, no war just want to see how the sundown amps bench.

I wouldn't even of tested the RF2500 if people weren't saying the Birth Sheets were crap.....

So I guess if you didn't know... now you know. RF Power Series, It'll do at least what they say they will do.

[///M5 2,833]

You grossly overestimated the price of the test gear, will that perform within some uncertainty to do the test? Yes, depending on the load and THD algorithm. Too late here in Germany to bother looking up how that AP calculates it.

[Impious 1,476]

AP2 is pretty much industry standard for amplifier testing AFAIK. I'd say the piece itself is more than likely relatively accurate. Never used one myself obviously so I'm not sure if there are setting within the software/hardware that will affect accuracy, although my assumption would be that there is.

As far as that Arc goes......definitely a stout amplifier output that much power with low THD, although the low THD is of no aubible benefit.....other than the fact you'd get a lot more power than 4kw out of it before distortion becomes audible.

That RF amp is just shy of 80% efficiency, which is pretty impressive for that large of an amp running at 1ohm.

[BIGDROCH 1]

You grossly overestimated the price of the test gear, will that perform within some uncertainty to do the test? Yes, depending on the load and THD algorithm. Too late here in Germany to bother looking up how that AP calculates it.

Save yourself the Time, because honestly i really don't care. You don't know what they paid for it, and I don't know either. I only know what they said, and I don't really care. They test some of the CLEANEST amps on the planet and the equipment they use is capable of testing as low as .0003? or is it .00003 THD %. So if it works for them, who am i to judge?

I saw him test a different amp (the SE4000) on the SAME SETUP that destroyed the RF2500 from top to bottom in Quality and Power. I don't need to see anything else. It was all I needed to see. The RF 2500 performed well within the range it is spec'd out to be on the original birth sheet and that's plenty good enough for me. There's A LOT worse amps out there then the RF 2500 and I already know the RF power series amps put out good power. Ive installed plenty of them to know first hand.

[swift 501]

Thanks for the test results. The last sub amp I used was a RF Power Series and it was a beast. This go round I will be running a Sundown and from the reviews it doesnt look like they will disappoint.

Thanks

[BIGDROCH 1]

AP2 is pretty much industry standard for amplifier testing AFAIK. I'd say the piece itself is more than likely relatively accurate. Never used one myself obviously so I'm not sure if there are setting within the software/hardware that will affect accuracy, although my assumption would be that there is.

As far as that Arc goes......definitely a stout amplifier output that much power with low THD, although the low THD is of no aubible benefit.....other than the fact you'd get a lot more power than 4kw out of it before distortion becomes audible.

That RF amp is just shy of 80% efficiency, which is pretty impressive for that large of an amp running at 1ohm.

I too was impressed with the results from the test. I truly was just hoping that it at least put out the 2500 watts Minimum that is advertised so of course I was super happy to see it to be a little healthier then expected. Although I know in a vehicle, I'm not going to be able to supply it with 300+ amps and hold a solid 14.4v so knowing it does 2500 watts @ 12 volts keeps me smiling still.

I'm going to be going back there probably next week. I'll see what i have at home they can test. Maybe I'll have them test my Arc Audio SE2300 I have.... I know it puts out good power because I tested it in this kids truck...

Edited December 16, 2010 by DROCH CUSTOMS

[BIGDROCH 1]

Thanks for the test results. The last sub amp I used was a RF Power Series and it was a beast. This go round I will be running a Sundown and from the reviews it doesnt look like they will disappoint.

Thanks

No Problem Swift. I'm also excited to try sundown.

Edited December 16, 2010 by DROCH CUSTOMS

[gcs8 10]

this is my setup with my sundown 3kd. gets pretty loud for an FI Q (SQ driver) in a tiny box.

[BIGDROCH 1]

Hell Ya! Right On GC! With that amp, you're ready to upgrade to the BL or BTL!!

I love FI Subs. I currently waiting for TWO Fully Loaded BL15's with the new 4" Voice Coil upgrade to put in my truck. I hope to have an update soon. I'm currently in the process of building the box. I have a dodge Megacab diesel and I can fit a 7.5cuft box behind the seat which will suit the BL's really nice. I've already second skinned the truck with damplifier pro from my toes under the dash to the back wall. I'm getting there slowly but surely. I need to order all the 0 Gauge, my HO alternator (DC 270xp) and 3 more Kinetik 3800's and I'll be ready for some good daily Bass!

that was fun! lol

Edited December 17, 2010 by DROCH CUSTOMS

[CrazyKenKid 64]

wow lots of fun!! looks very cool! thanks for getting that test done. i never really believed RF ratings untill now lol

[Impious 1,476]

Fun Fact: Does everyone know why the THD+N curve takes the shape it does, not only increasing in percentage as power increases but also as power decreases?

First, what is THD+N? It is the total harmonic distortion (THD) of the amplifier plus the amplifier's noise (N), and in the graph it is expressed as a percentage of the signal. Now, THD is strongly correlated to the signal.....as the level of the signal increases (i.e. as power output goes up), THD increases. As the level of the signal goes down, so does THD. The right hand portion of the graph makes sense then.....we see the % of THD+N increasing as power increases.

But if we look at the left hand side of the graph, in the lower power output levels, we see that the % of THD+N increases as power decreases? Well, that's because the "N" portion of the THD+N, or the noise, is uncorrelated to the signal. The level of the noise is going to be relatively the same at low power levels as it is at high power levels. Because of this, as the level of the signal decreases, the noise becomes a larger percentage relative to the signal ! So the percentage of THD+N is going increase as power decreases because, even though "THD" is decreasing, "N" is increasing as a percentage of the signal.

So the THD+N starts out high because N is a larger percentage of the signal at low power levels, then the graph slopes downward because "N", as a percentage of the signal, is decreasing while THD is increasing (although not at as rapid a rate as "N" decreases, so the overall slope of the graph is still downward) until it reaches a point where THD begins to become more significant as power increases and the graph swings back upward again.

This is why the SNR (signal-to-noise ratio) of an amplifier is completely dependent on the level of the signal. As the power output of the amplifier increases, it's SNR improves. So if we measure the SNR of an amplifier at 1w, it will be worse than the same amplifier measured at 100w. This is a typical marketing trick by amplifier manufacturers.....some of the less scrupulous manufacturers will list the SNR of their amplifiers at full power output, while others will list it as a 1w measurement. Which is why it's important to know the test conditions of a SNR measurement before trying to compare them between amps. The SNR measurements of two amplifiers can not be directly compared unless they were taken at the same power level, or you adjust one of their SNR measurement numbers to account for a difference in the power level the measurement was taken at.

So, there's my attempt at posting something educational today.

[sundownz 197]

SE4000 is a really sweet design -- I can agree to that

ARC finishes assembly of them in the USA, actually, the big transformer is not installed at the offshore factory -- or so I was told by Mr. Zeff (which I'm sure he wouldn't tell me so if it wasn't true).

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

So, there's my attempt at posting something educational today.

Thanks for the schooling, as usual.

[ssh 924]

So, there's my attempt at posting something educational today.

Thanks for the schooling, as usual.

x2, much appreciated

[BIGDROCH 1]

Just for fun, heres the Birth Certificate of my Arc Audio SE2300 tested at 2ohm Stereo. It's a pretty cool amp. It puts out 1300 x 1 @ 2ohm and 4ohm! Great universal amp.... Not to mention SUPER clean!

[///M5 2,833]

You grossly overestimated the price of the test gear, will that perform within some uncertainty to do the test? Yes, depending on the load and THD algorithm. Too late here in Germany to bother looking up how that AP calculates it.

Save yourself the Time, because honestly i really don't care. You don't know what they paid for it, and I don't know either. I only know what they said, and I don't really care. They test some of the CLEANEST amps on the planet and the equipment they use is capable of testing as low as .0003? or is it .00003 THD %. So if it works for them, who am i to judge?

I saw him test a different amp (the SE4000) on the SAME SETUP that destroyed the RF2500 from top to bottom in Quality and Power. I don't need to see anything else. It was all I needed to see. The RF 2500 performed well within the range it is spec'd out to be on the original birth sheet and that's plenty good enough for me. There's A LOT worse amps out there then the RF 2500 and I already know the RF power series amps put out good power. Ive installed plenty of them to know first hand.

No worries hadn't planned on it. And no, I don't know what they paid for it, but YES I do know what they go for used on the open market and if your numbers are right he got raped by an order of magnitude.

AP2 is pretty much industry standard for amplifier testing AFAIK. I'd say the piece itself is more than likely relatively accurate. Never used one myself obviously so I'm not sure if there are setting within the software/hardware that will affect accuracy, although my assumption would be that there is.

I know, perhaps being in the Test & Measurement industry for the past 17 years has jaded me. I wasn't eloquent with my point.

Any Metrologist that has ANY idea of how to specify anything will realize that there is no such thing as accuracy, only uncertainty. My comments were directly related to the fact that this was 100% left out of the reported numbers which were reported in a fashion that is WAY beyond their uncertainty. Sort of like using a tape measure and stating that whatever you measure is 11.325768907 inches. Anyone who does that and tries to report it in a scientific fashion is a moron and is not capable of operating the tape measure. The analogy holds to higher precision equipment. Either report significant digits or the uncertainty otherwise the results are dubious. Depending on the setup above the significant digits could be all the way out to the first number... If I knew the setup and operator it would be easy to calculate, but I don't really care. Nothing wrong with the amp, but all sorts of wrong with the way the results are presented.

[Skillz 3]

offtopic, but LULZ at the screenname - DROCH Customs

Would you by any chance be of Russian decent?