Any difference with upgrade?

[BanginGMC 23]

I've talked about this subject with a couple people and I was looking for more opinions.

My current system is

Head Unit: Alpine iDA-X305S

Front Stage: (4) 7" AA Carbon Fibers (1) SAX-100.4 (4) Selenium ST200s (1) SAX-125.2

Sub Stage: (2) 15" AA SMD (2) SAZ-3500D strapped

Electrical: (1) Yellow Top (4) XS Power D3100 (1) DC Power 320 Amp Alt

I'm thinking about upgrading my sub amps to (2) SAZ-4500Ds strapped, will I notice any audible difference or any difference on a TL, is so how much?

I would upgrade my electrical along with the amps.

Thanks,

Dom.

[///M5 2,833]

TL, yes? Ear, no. How much NO ONE WILL KNOW. You really know more than this :(

[shizzzon 461]

damn... i've already went over this with u more than once before...

If you want an audible difference when your option is just to upgrade power.. that's not enough power to be worthwhile.

Also, if you go any higher, you will probably be getting close if not over the threshold of not being able to daily the setup constantly without a cooldown period.

If u want it louder.. either at least double output power but lose nonstop daily output without cooldown...

Or rebuild box(cheapest solution)

I dont know bout everybody but when i had my last wall in there.. yea i was runnin 7x the recommended power to each sub.. yea i could run it like that for 10sec before coils started to cook.. but at that pressure level.. i dont want to hear it for prolonged periods so it was fine.

I don't see how you can accept such pressure or want it for so long unless it's mostly for competition... In that case.. i'd go crazy on power and attenuate when necessary.

[BanginGMC 23]

TL, yes? Ear, no. How much NO ONE WILL KNOW. You really know more than this :(

I knew i'd get flamed for asking how much of a difference. I was hoping someone could do a formula or some shit and tell me how much of a decibel gain, but if I will not hear or feel a difference there is no point in upgrading. Thanks Sean.

[BanginGMC 23]

damn... i've already went over this with u more than once before...

If you want an audible difference when your option is just to upgrade power.. that's not enough power to be worthwhile.

Also, if you go any higher, you will probably be getting close if not over the threshold of not being able to daily the setup constantly without a cooldown period.

If u want it louder.. either at least double output power but lose nonstop daily output without cooldown...

Or rebuild box(cheapest solution)

I dont know bout everybody but when i had my last wall in there.. yea i was runnin 7x the recommended power to each sub.. yea i could run it like that for 10sec before coils started to cook.. but at that pressure level.. i dont want to hear it for prolonged periods so it was fine.

I don't see how you can accept such pressure or want it for so long unless it's mostly for competition... In that case.. i'd go crazy on power and attenuate when necessary.

I know we have, but shit I wish it would work out like I want it too lol. I like the pressure and everything that comes along with, no other thing in the world is like it If my system was just for competition I'd be upgrading power a lot, like you say.. but it was built for daily.

But Thanks Shizz

[ssh 924]

Sounds like it's time for a blow through

[BanginGMC 23]

Sounds like it's time for a blow through

You know I want one, but even if I was able to get the subs mounted good I don't know how much room I can spare with me bagging my truck.

[Impious 1,476]

I was hoping someone could do a formula

Maximum theoretical difference:

10*log(Power1/Power2)

10*log(9000/7000) = 1.1db

A 1.1db difference wouldn't really be audible to begin with, so we can scratch "noticeably louder" off of the list of possibilities as the audible difference would amount to pretty much zero even under idealized, unrealistic conditions.

Also, that formula doesn't account for power compression, which your subwoofers will be experiencing. At a level of 9kw, they will be experiencing a significant amount of power compression. How much power compression you'll experience depends on the thermal capabilities of your drivers and their mechanical behavior in the enclosure.....but realistically it will be significantly less than 1.1db on a meter, possibly even zero if the amount of power compression is high enough.

[BanginGMC 23]

I was hoping someone could do a formula

Maximum theoretical difference:

10*log(Power1/Power2)

10*log(9000/7000) = 1.1db

A 1.1db difference wouldn't really be audible to begin with, so we can scratch "noticeably louder" off of the list of possibilities as the audible difference would amount to pretty much zero even under idealized, unrealistic conditions.

Also, that formula doesn't account for power compression, which your subwoofers will be experiencing. At a level of 9kw, they will be experiencing a significant amount of power compression. How much power compression you'll experience depends on the thermal capabilities of your drivers and their mechanical behavior in the enclosure.....but realistically it will be significantly less than 1.1db on a meter, possibly even zero if the amount of power compression is high enough.

Thanks man

[ford302redneck 15]

So adding ~2000watts will not gain ANYTHING?

[UpGradde 7]

Just as the above posts, hardly. You want to gain, use more drivers/alter box design.

Going from saz-3500s to 4500s would only be worth it if you compete.

[BanginGMC 23]

I think the responses above are geared towards high powered systems. If you are running 500 watts to a BTL, then upgrade to 2500 watt you WILL hear and feel and gain in a lot of ways.

[Impious 1,476]

So adding ~2000watts will not gain ANYTHING?

In this case:

Audibly, No.

Measurably, on a meter...Maybe. How much is hard to predict, but it won't be a large increase by any stretch of the imagination.

It's not about the absolute value of the wattage increase. It's about the amount of the increase relative to the starting point, and relative to the behavior of the subwoofers both thermally and mechanically. As Bangin' pointed out above, a 2kw increase from 500w is much different than a 2kw increase from 7kw.

[ford302redneck 15]

I think the responses above are geared towards high powered systems. If you are running 500 watts to a BTL, then upgrade to 2500 watt you WILL hear and feel and gain in a lot of ways.

I meant in your setup...

People throw all these formulas and such to determind spl, and it doesn't work. Way to many variables.

I read a review of the SMD by dBdom, over on SMD's forum. He basicly said anything below 3500 watts the Mayhems was louder, but according to people on this site, there won't be any gains from 2500 watts to 3500 watts. So to the ear, you can buy 1 4500 and 2 Mayhems to be just as loud to the ear and minimal to the meter. Which I think is complete bullshit.

I'm really wanting to do some testing to determine if this is true.

I like overpowering,I like having the extra, way I see it, you can always turn down. But you can never turn up.

I think if you have the extra money, room, and batteries get the 4500s.

[pdubb 5]

i say 1.6-2 dB, you will hear a difference also, its your daily driver. if you know your system you'll hear it. i say do it and also add 3 more batts.

[sandt38 448]

So adding ~2000watts will not gain ANYTHING?

Like imp said above, not really. This is based on the nominal power gains overall, but a theoretical 1.1db gain is inaudible. 3db is considered "audible" and for 3db you need to roughly double the power, this is assuming no other changes are made, aside from providing ample power to the amps to aid in their increased demand.

[ford302redneck 15]

So adding ~2000watts will not gain ANYTHING?

In this case:

Audibly, No.

Measurably, on a meter...Maybe. How much is hard to predict, but it won't be a large increase by any stretch of the imagination.

It's not about the absolute value of the wattage increase. It's about the amount of the increase relative to the starting point, and relative to the behavior of the subwoofers both thermally and mechanically. As Bangin' pointed out above, a 2kw increase from 500w is much different than a 2kw increase from 7kw.

If you say it'll maybe gain on the meter, then I have to say it'll maybe have a audible difference. You can't give a 100% correct answer cause you have no properly tested the setup on hand.

Everybody lately has been saying you don't ever need extra power. 2500 watts is as good as 3500, so why does all the people buy bigger instead of smaller? For no gain? I think not.

[sandt38 448]

So adding ~2000watts will not gain ANYTHING?

In this case:

Audibly, No.

Measurably, on a meter...Maybe. How much is hard to predict, but it won't be a large increase by any stretch of the imagination.

It's not about the absolute value of the wattage increase. It's about the amount of the increase relative to the starting point, and relative to the behavior of the subwoofers both thermally and mechanically. As Bangin' pointed out above, a 2kw increase from 500w is much different than a 2kw increase from 7kw.

If you say it'll maybe gain on the meter, then I have to say it'll maybe have a audible difference. You can't give a 100% correct answer cause you have no properly tested the setup on hand.

Everybody lately has been saying you don't ever need extra power. 2500 watts is as good as 3500, so why does all the people buy bigger instead of smaller? For no gain? I think not.

Like I said above you, 3db is a theoretical audible difference. But 1.1 will not really be noticed. Your ears are not as sensitive as a meter, i assure you.

[Impious 1,476]

I think the responses above are geared towards high powered systems. If you are running 500 watts to a BTL, then upgrade to 2500 watt you WILL hear and feel and gain in a lot of ways.

I meant in your setup...

People throw all these formulas and such to determind spl, and it doesn't work. Way to many variables.

You're right. It doesn't work.....because the formula is the MAXIMUM increase under perfect conditions, which don't exist.

So the results will almost always be worse than the formula predicts. (I say almost because at very low power levels before power compression/etc kicks in, it will hold pretty close to true).

I read a review of the SMD by dBdom, over on SMD's forum. He basicly said anything below 3500 watts the Mayhems was louder, but according to people on this site, there won't be any gains from 2500 watts to 3500 watts. So to the ear, you can buy 1 4500 and 2 Mayhems to be just as loud to the ear and minimal to the meter. Which I think is complete bullshit.

Don't know what you're review talking about. But certain things in this discussion are not from "people on this forum" but rather, the people on this forum are stating the simple acoustic and auditory system facts.

I'm really wanting to do some testing to determine if this is true.

You would be better off to start by learning some on the subject. Scientists and individuals with advanced acoustics/physics degrees have engaged in this research for decades. For your purposes, you would learn far more by picking up a few good books than you could learn in your driveway as results in your driveway are subject to your own ignorant error. And I don't use ignorant in the derogatory sense, but rather in the sense that you likely do not have enough knowledge to maintain the proper constraints to make any results valid.

[ford302redneck 15]

Why can't they be? If you know your setup up and down, you can hear 1-2db difference.

Example. I tested 3 amps. 500 watt 750 watt and 1500watt. Same sub same car same day.

First run with 500 watt amp. 142.

2nd run with 750 watt amp 143. And it was a BIG difference to me.

Third run, with double power was 144.5. And another BIG noticeable difference.

I could go pull up the old post on ca.com with pictures and proof if needed.

[sandt38 448]

First run with 500 watt amp. 142.

2nd run with 750 watt amp 143. And it was a BIG difference to me.

Third run, with double power was 144.5. And another BIG noticeable difference.

I could go pull up the old post on ca.com with pictures and proof if needed.

Then your ears are Godlike. Human perception is simply not that keen.

[Impious 1,476]

If you say it'll maybe gain on the meter, then I have to say it'll maybe have a audible difference. You can't give a 100% correct answer cause you have no properly tested the setup on hand.

And you would be wrong. 1.1db is the maximum difference. This is a fact of acoustics. It's been tested. It's been verified. It can be reliably predicted. You might not like this. You might think it's bullshit. You would be wrong. Real world, the increase will be significantly less than predicted because of the real world issue of power compression. I don't need to test anything myself to know this. This has been tested and verified by people far more intelligent than myself for decades.

So realistically we are looking at an increase that is much less than 1db. And based on even a cursory understanding of the human auditory system, it can reliably be predicted that this small of an increase will not be perceptible by human ears. Again, you might not like this. You might think it's bullshit. You would be wrong. It's been tested. It's been verified. It can be reliably predicted.

Everybody lately has been saying you don't ever need extra power. 2500 watts is as good as 3500, so why does all the people buy bigger instead of smaller? For no gain? I think not.

That's because there are also a lot of idiots in this hobby. If you chose to follow those idiots, more power to you. Hopefully they won't lead you into jumping off a cliff, because you would apparently follow them right over the edge.

The alternative is that you are a watching a bunch of SPL'ers who are chasing every last tenth of a decibel. I have and always will concede that in SPL formats the more the better as a tenth of a decibel can make the difference in competitions. However, for "daily driving" setups not primarily concerned with numbers on a meter, this is completely unnecessary and a complete waste of resources, time and space. But because many people have a monkey-see monkey-do personality, they see everyone else running the largest amps they can support (and a lot of times, larger than they can support) and think it's the way to do things. They are full of ignorance and don't have the understanding to know why that route is completely unnecessary for someone who doesn't intend on focusing heavily on the competition circuit.

[shizzzon 461]

Why can't they be? If you know your setup up and down, you can hear 1-2db difference.

Example. I tested 3 amps. 500 watt 750 watt and 1500watt. Same sub same car same day.

First run with 500 watt amp. 142.

2nd run with 750 watt amp 143. And it was a BIG difference to me.

Third run, with double power was 144.5. And another BIG noticeable difference.

I could go pull up the old post on ca.com with pictures and proof if needed.

at the same frequency all three times?

also.. if any of those tests were clipped.. or clipped more than the other.. a square wave will produce peaks in MANY frequencies which will cause your ear to perceive a sound audibly louder than what it might be because of frequency shift.

[Impious 1,476]

Why can't they be? If you know your setup up and down, you can hear 1-2db difference.

Example. I tested 3 amps. 500 watt 750 watt and 1500watt. Same sub same car same day.

First run with 500 watt amp. 142.

2nd run with 750 watt amp 143. And it was a BIG difference to me.

Third run, with double power was 144.5. And another BIG noticeable difference.

I could go pull up the old post on ca.com with pictures and proof if needed.

While I can't agree with your subjective analysis of "big difference", let's just look at the numbers.

You went from 500w to 750w and gained 1db. You should have gained 10*log(750/500) = 1.76db, so you had .76db of power compression.

With double the power, you only gained 1.5db, you should have gained 10*log(1500/750) = 3db. So you had 1.5db of power compression.

How much power compression do you think is going to be occurring with 9000 watts on a pair of subwoofers?

Oh, and I don't care about your personal subjective analysis of the "audible differences". If you want to prove anything at all with regards to your ability to discern audible differences, go have a properly conducted, scientifically valid test conducted in a controlled environment by someone with the proper training in administering such a test.

[ssh 924]

Why can't they be? If you know your setup up and down, you can hear 1-2db difference.

Example. I tested 3 amps. 500 watt 750 watt and 1500watt. Same sub same car same day.

First run with 500 watt amp. 142.

2nd run with 750 watt amp 143. And it was a BIG difference to me.

Third run, with double power was 144.5. And another BIG noticeable difference.

I could go pull up the old post on ca.com with pictures and proof if needed.

While I can't agree with your subjective analysis of "big difference", let's just look at the numbers.

You went from 500w to 750w and gained 1db. You should have gained 10*log(750/500) = 1.76db, so you had .76db of power compression.

With double the power, you only gained 1.5db, you should have gained 10*log(1500/750) = 3db. So you had 1.5db of power compression.

How much power compression do you think is going to be occurring with 9000 watts on a pair of subwoofers?

Oh, and I don't care about your personal subjective analysis of the "audible differences". If you want to prove anything at all with regards to your ability to discern audible differences, go have a properly conducted, scientifically valid test conducted in a controlled environment by someone with the proper training in administering such a test.

Does his brother playing him music with random volumes on a cassette player underwater count?