saz1500d v.1 v.s dd m1a?

[An-i-no 86]

Sorry for the double post, but this argument reminds me of the old Kobe vs Jordan or Undefeated Dolphins vs Nearly Undefeated Patriots. You always have to take account for the different rules of the times, and the talent level of other teams/players in the league(s) and it just skews everything...I'm feeling that this will turn into the same kind of "there's no way for them to play each other ouright so we'll never know" type of thing.

[bassahaulic 155]

Ok, I got a point I want to make.

You saying SPL testing is invalid because of the variables. Which I agree to a certain extent.

But to RAM Design, his test was not invalid. He was testing SPL for his power class, and the Sundown was louder hands down. Now how can't you count that as a valid test?

I doubt in his setup, the M1a would of ever been louder. So now what?

Sure, if a major variable changed, box design, adding/subjecting input voltage and or impedance change, it could have a different outcome.

Point is, his test was valid. It might not apply to everybody but to him, it does.

In SPL world, bench test power isn't everything.

I rather have a amp that produces higher SPL, than on a test bench, if that's what I'm looking for.

Unless he took the time to set each amp to the correct SS, LP, and gain his test is useless. As with DD amps the voltage output changes based to the SS and LPF position.

I do understand what your saying. And I can see why the test meanings nothing to you, and why you see it as invalid.

But I have a question. If you was in RAM shoes, and you needed to find out which amp was louder in SPL, how would you compare them more equally and actually have a valid test?

I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything, but if the way he did it doesn't prove anything. I need to know how to it correctly for future reference.

I would set everything to it's optimum settings not just "gains on minimum" which I don't believe as amps usually at "minimum" make hardly any power.

[Impious 1,476]

Ok, I got a point I want to make.

You saying SPL testing is invalid because of the variables. Which I agree to a certain extent.

But to RAM Design, his test was not invalid. He was testing SPL for his power class, and the Sundown was louder hands down. Now how can't you count that as a valid test?

I doubt in his setup, the M1a would of ever been louder. So now what?

Sure, if a major variable changed, box design, adding/subjecting input voltage and or impedance change, it could have a different outcome.

Point is, his test was valid. It might not apply to everybody but to him, it does.

Actually, not really. Again not reported within uncertainty and when you add those up they will eclipse more than the .6dB he found.

Also, like Impious I am not ripping on the test or findings, but the absurd comment that Ibanender made about the other tests being real. Is Ram's scientific? No. Is it repeatable? I doubt it. Will the same amp likely be louder when tested again? Perhaps and its probably even likely. Its just that VERY minimal changes can make that happen in the situation from all sorts of variables. Hell its so close it could almost be any one of them.

I wasn't trying to argue or anything. But RAM got info from his test. And isn't that the reason from testing to begin with?

I agree there are a lot of variables, but I just think his counted, to him at least. That is all.

I understand the point you are trying to make. He got numbers and that was his goal. But really, if the numbers aren't reliable, how useful and reliable is the resulting conclusion.

For example, he said he left gains to minimum. What's to say the "minimum" setting on the Sundown wasn't actually higher than the "minimum" setting on the DD? What if he properly set the gains and the DD had higher numbers after properly level matching the gains?

Or if the DD experienced higher impedance rise or more power compression because the subs were hotter when they were measured? Maybe if the subs were the same temperature, the DD would have been louder?

As M5 has pointed out, there are enough variables that small changes across multiple variables will add up to the variance he measured in the numbers. So really, if the numbers aren't reliable, and test isn't valid, how useful is the actual result and conclusion. It's not. Just because he now has "numbers" doesn't guaranty the "numbers" actually mean anything. Control a few variables and the resulting numbers could be different, which means the conclusion will be different. So which set of numbers will be more meaningful, which conclusion will be more useful? The later, of course. Inaccurate numbers are just as useful as no numbers at all, actually more dangerous because with inaccurate numbers you think you have knowledge you don't actually have.

And really the factor that is more important to me is in how information gets interpreted and spread by others. It simply breeds ignorance and wrong information, which isn't helpful or useful to anyone. Just look at how many times people bring up the Sundown test as "proof" they are underrated, that they output X power, that they make "rated power" at 12V, etc. I've been saying the same thing since that test came out. It doesn't prove anything of the sort. It simply perpetuates ignorance. Nobody learns anything and everybody gets mislead. Not intentionally on Sundown's part, and it's not only Sundown (obviously). It's not so much about "that test" or any particular test, but in people understanding how to properly interpret and understand results of any test, not draw the wrong conclusions, and how to improve the test or understand the uncertainty in any particular test. I don't care what amp it is or who's doing the test, it increases the knowledge base as a whole, as well as any particular testing situation, if people understand the information and draw the correct conclusions from it, and it starts with a better test method. As M5 pointed out, you can't eliminate uncertainty, but you can sure reduce the amount of certainty you have, or correctly identify the uncertainty involved. If people understand how to properly interpret results of a test, and how to more accurately perform their own tests, it will increase the usefulness of the results both for themselves and for everyone on the whole.

[RAM_Designs 25]

I would set everything to it's optimum settings not just "gains on minimum" which I don't believe as amps usually at "minimum" make hardly any power.

I'm sorry, I mistyped and meant to say maximum instead of minimum. I had the gains wide open. Sorry for the confusion everybody!

But actually, they make plenty of power with an 8V HU. I actually have the gains on all of my amps turned all the way down right now.

Edited March 14, 2011 by RAM_Designs

[Impious 1,476]

I typed this up fairly quickly, so I probably didn't articulate everything as clearly or plainly as I would have liked to, but.....

To Imp, I know you're probably aware of this but I just feel that this needs to be stated clearly. The reason ibanender (probably spelled wrong but I'll edit it.) is so adamant in his argument is because he feels that you're arguing in favor of something that is non-existent (and even seems mythical) and therefor cannot show any definite results for. He's showing you numbers that he can measure, results he can feel, hear and enjoy and you're showing him theory with no results.

It's not mythical. Ibanender likes to live in la-la land and likes to ignore facts to make himself feel right.

Like I said; It's an amplifier, not black magic. If none of these things can be accurately measurement (within uncertainty, which can be reliably determined as well).....how does any engineer go about designing them? How do they verify that the actual product performs as predicted by their models? They wouldn't be able to, everything would just be a shot in the dark and a "well, let's just hope for the best".

There are accurate and accepted means of measuring them. There are proper ways to control and limit uncertainty of the measurement. Maybe not in ibanender's fantasy world, but in "the real world" he is so fond of these things exist. Is it possible to inaccurately measure an amplifier? Sure, lots of them. That doesn't mean an accurate measurement method does not exist. It doesn't mean we should abandon the practice all together. Does that mean that every test can be believed? No. Does that mean that no test can be believed? No. With the proper information, you can know the accuracy of the measurement.

As wrong as his numbers may be, his point is that he HAS numbers.

Numbers for numbers sake isn't very meaningful or useful.

He has something to judge against, a scale, if you will.

First, not if the numbers aren't accurate. There would be no meaningful scale as all of the numbers would be measured on a set of different scales. They would be incomparable.

Second, you would need to know the intended use of the information, or for what use the numbers can be applied to. SPL'ers might not care about clipping or distortion. Those of us who listen to music will. So how useful is a measurement of an amplifier driven into full clipping if that's not the information we need to know because we plan to actually listen to music? We can't know how useful the measurement is for our purpose because not all of the necessary information was measured.

If one test is wrong, and the next test just as wrong and he gains x.xx db, then he can say the second amp was louder.

Only in his misapplied, inaccurate test condition.

In a more accurate test (less uncertainty), maybe he'd have the opposite result. Maybe amp 2 really is more power or louder than amp 1 when properly tested. As we reduce and identify uncertainty, the results become more meaningful. Wouldn't that be more useful information?

But if we don't think about this, we'd blindly believe the first test.

Too many quotes, see part 2 below....

[Impious 1,476]

He CAN'T measure distortion, he doesn't HAVE resistive loads. From what I've seen, all the people who swear by perfect testing enviornments and procedures can't provide them so his argument is what's the point?

And inability to perform a better test doesn't validate the results of an improper test. It's an excuse not to perform a better test, and a good one since some of that stuff is expensive. But it doesn't make the results of an inaccurate test anything more than they are, inaccurate. Which makes the results unreliable and not meaningful or useful. I wouldn't go about testing amplifiers because I don't possess or have access to the proper equipment. That doesn't mean I go about testing amplifiers in an inaccurate manor without properly identifying where the uncertainty lies, which in turn leads people to draw completely incorrect conclusions from the information I provide.

By that logic, without a thd measurement (and how do we know it's accurate?) how do we know ratings are accurate? What do we use to judge an amplifier before we buy it?

We don't know with certainty that the ratings are accurate. Does that mean manufacturer's should stop rating amplifiers? No. There is a general level of acceptance that a manufacturer accurately rate their products. There are obvious business reasons to wish to do so. And there are obviously businesses who don't follow this policy. Which is where independent third party testing is useful, it can verify the accuracy of a given manufacturer's equipment. Are you going to be able to do it yourself? Probably not. But that doesn't mean that the ability does not exist. And that doesn't mean that any ability to test an amplifier, regardless of how high the uncertainty may be, is accurate and useful.

Up until that point....you are buying based on reputation and a hope and a prayer that the manufacturer is honest. Which is where the companies with a high reputation have gained their high reputation and companies with a low reputation have gained their low reputation.

We can't use ibanender's way of measuring, because it's inaccurate.

Correct.

Nobody can realistically measure thd, and nobody has resistive loads laying around

Nobody you know. That doesn't mean nobody in general.

so then what?

See above. Reputation, hope and a prayer.

But that doesn't make inaccurate (high uncertainty) measurement methods any more accurate or meaningful.

He wants people to do things the way he does because he can then feed that to people and help them to decide which amp to use.

If he measures two amps in a method with high uncertainty, how useful is his help? Less useful than having no numbers at all because you'll incorrect assume you are armed with knowledge that you actually do not possess.

If the right way to measure is nearly impossible, then should we not measure at all?

First you have to know what you are trying to measure. Second you need to reduce the uncertainty of the measurement, or control variables. Third you need to properly understand what was measured and where the uncertainty lies.

I wouldn't call it nearly impossible. An extremely in-depth analysis would require more tools than most amateurs have access to. That doesn't make the test impossible, just extremely challenging for a given amateur individual with limited tools at their disposal. Other less in-depth analysis would be closer to within the grasp of the amateur. Understand what you are measuring, though. Don't misinterpret the information as something it is not. Understand where the uncertainty lies and how useful or usable the results are.

Does that make this argument between the Sundown and the DD just "there's no way to tell?"

Certainly there are ways to know. Some of the tests may be really expensive to conduct which makes them financially infeasible for an individual.

Because that sucks ass, to put it bluntly.

Agreed. It sucks it's really hard to find out. But that still doesn't make some numbers better than no numbers at all, and it doesn't increase the usefulness of any result regardless of test method.

If the man who designs and has the amps built (Jacob) does it wrong then??!??!

Jacob didn't do it intentionally to mislead, or to demonstrate how underrated his amps are. It's been a while since I've read the thread, but IIRC he was extremely careful in his wording and how he represented the test. If you read through the thread, don't just read what he does write....rather, think about what he doesn't write. IMO he fully understood what the test did and did not demonstrate, and chose his words accordingly as to not misrepresent the results. That hasn't stopped everyone else from clearly misrepresenting the results, however.

[RAM_Designs 25]

RAM his test is invalid.

1/ Both amps produce more then 400w, and he was in the 0-400w class.

2/Do you think both amps have the same gain pots? I don't think so. (and if they have, design on the amp is different)

3/The amp was louder at a certain freqeuncy, doesn't mean it will do the same power over every freqeuncy, in his case he did get a gain. Other may not.

There are to many variables to be able to say the amp is better then the other one, because in YOUR situation it's better.

The 0-400 is using the 4ohm rating(actually dividing down from 1ohm rating).

[RAM_Designs 25]

Again, I'm not trying to say that what I did is perfect, because I know it's not. It's just what I had to work with at the time. My teammate was going to give me the M1a to run, but looked at both amp's internals and figured the Sundown would work better...sure enough it did, in my instance.

Edited March 14, 2011 by RAM_Designs

[An-i-no 86]

Thanks Imp for taking the time to go through everything and explain clearly. I see where you stand on not spreading false information even in a situation where information is limited but I also see where some people prefer tangibles no matter how much of a stretch they are. Oh well, a fight that'll probably never end.

[smashedz28 110]

Thanks Imp for taking the time to go through everything and explain clearly. I see where you stand on not spreading false information even in a situation where information is limited but I also see where some people prefer tangibles no matter how much of a stretch they are. Oh well, a fight that'll probably never end.

That is for damn sure with these guys.

[Kanaworm$ 292]

Don't let him kid you the SAZ-1500v.1 is a monster of an amp and yes the Sundown can operate daily at .5. The DDM1A is a good amplifier in itself but just not on par with the SAZ-1500D in terms of stability at .5 ohm.

Keep the SAZ-1500D you will be glad you did.

Where are you getting this information?

My local Sundown dealer is also a DD dealer and we did head to head testing! That's where i'm getting my information!

[smashedz28 110]

careful. This thread seems to require tests to certain standards. head to head isnt accurate enough for some people.

[bassahaulic 155]

At any rate the 1500 isn't a 1500 it's almost powerful enough to be rated a 2000. As my SAZ-2000 should be a 2500. Sundown Underrates to make their stuff look better. DD does not do this.

And you can't say I'm biased as I am Team Sundown.

[///M5 2,833]

careful. This thread seems to require tests to certain standards. head to head isnt accurate enough for some people.

You don't get it do you?

How about this for analogy.

Let's just say your foot is exactly 12.00000" inches. You have two sticks to measure.

You lay stick one next to your foot and measure 6 31/64"

30 minutes later you lay the second stick next to your foot and measure 6 1/2"

You draw the conclusion that stick one is longer than stick two.

Find anything ridiculous about that statement? I sure hope so. Perhaps the significant digits of 64's of an inch and the conclusion. And yes, perfect analogy as the point holds for the exact discussion we are having.

[Impious 1,476]

How about another example. This time I'll take the opposite stance and agree with ibanender. Real world testing is valid and meaningful, and results can't be misinterpreted.

RAM measured the Sundown to be .6db louder than the DD M1a. Sundown is rated at 1500w @ 12V (according to ibanender), the DD 1200w @ 12V. The test load was .5ohm nominal, but after rise it'll probably be somewhere around 1ohm or close to the rated power output.

We know that 10*log(1500/1200) = .9691, or the Sundown should be .97db louder than the DD. But RAM only measured a .6db difference. This is a real world test, right? It really happened in RAM's vehicle. So what can we conclude from this test?

Well, since the Sundown was less than .97db louder than the DD, we can obviously and correctly conclude that the Sundown is overrated. It couldn't possibly provide 1500w if it's only .6db louder than the DD, which is 1200w. That's a real world test. In the real world, Sundown amps are overrated. A real world test is meaningful and valid in the real world, right? It's numbers, black and white. Numbers don't lie. They can not be misinterpreted. The conclusions drawn from them are accurate, valid, reliable and meaningful.

So there it is, definitive proof from the real world that Sundown is overrated.

How many people would have a problem with this statement?

How many of you could now find a reason to disprove my conclusion from the test? I'm sure ibanender would be up in arms and could find all kinds of reasons to invalidate RAM's test and my conclusion if I started making this claim based on RAM's test, even though it fits every single one of his criteria and I've simply followed his logic.

See how the standards of what's valid, reliable and meaningful can suddenly change when a different conclusion is drawn ? One that maybe isn't so flattering to the product you're selling, promoting or you personally like better?

It's the same information, I've just presented it differently.

[smashedz28 110]

You guys dont happen to apply this knowledge to daily use do you? I believe you 2 are the best at what you do hands down. Prove people wrong. Sorry for putting myself in the line of fire. i will not argue with you as I have seen how that goes. I do understand your points and never disagreed, i simply think your breaking things down quite a bit more than needs to be for the average person.

[ford302redneck 15]

My question is how do average people determine which product is for them?

Because obviously we can't properly test any of the equipment..

We also can't go by manufacture rating either as they might not of tested properly either. And there way might of been different than others, so therefore not equal to others rating.

We can't go by SPL because of the 100s of variables with a swap out.

How do we know which is better?

[aimone 4]

ok ok enough arguing its gotten way to deep in here. the sundowns better hands down, dd make quality products for sure. but dd 1200 isnt that underrate if at all and will not outdue an saz1500 which for a fact does more than rated.....

damn how hard was that? i answered my own question

[bassahaulic 155]

ok ok enough arguing its gotten way to deep in here. the sundowns better hands down, dd make quality products for sure. but dd 1200 isnt that underrate if at all and will not outdue an saz1500 which for a fact does more than rated.....

damn how hard was that? i answered my own question

Then why did you ask..........

Get DD M2A, it's got more nuts then a little bit. lol

[Impious 1,476]

ok ok enough arguing its gotten way to deep in here. the sundowns better hands down, dd make quality products for sure. but dd 1200 isnt that underrate if at all and will not outdue an saz1500 which for a fact does more than rated.....

damn how hard was that? i answered my own question

Actually if you read my last post, I've proven conclusively that Sundown is in fact overrated. It won't do 1500w because it's not .97db louder than a 1200w amplifier.

So do you want an amplifier that isn't underrated, or an amplifier that is overrated?

<---- Still using ibanender logic.

[ibanender 2]

My question is how do average people determine which product is for them?

Because obviously we can't properly test any of the equipment..

We also can't go by manufacture rating either as they might not of tested properly either. And there way might of been different than others, so therefore not equal to others rating.

We can't go by SPL because of the 100s of variables with a swap out.

How do we know which is better?

Whichever amp these audio gods say is better, because they talked to some people who said they were.

ok ok enough arguing its gotten way to deep in here. the sundowns better hands down, dd make quality products for sure. but dd 1200 isnt that underrate if at all and will not outdue an saz1500 which for a fact does more than rated.....

damn how hard was that? i answered my own question

Actually if you read my last post, I've proven conclusively that Sundown is in fact overrated. It won't do 1500w because it's not .97db louder than a 1200w amplifier.

So do you want an amplifier that isn't underrated, or an amplifier that is overrated?

<---- Still using ibanender logic.

Oh, so you used your test method to prove the DD does 1200 watts?

[///M5 2,833]

You guys dont happen to apply this knowledge to daily use do you? I believe you 2 are the best at what you do hands down. Prove people wrong. Sorry for putting myself in the line of fire. i will not argue with you as I have seen how that goes. I do understand your points and never disagreed, i simply think your breaking things down quite a bit more than needs to be for the average person.

Being forced to. Problem is that there is misinformation being brought to the table that should be clarified. If some people who don't know what they are doing wouldn't offer biased recommendations based on incorrect assumptions it wouldn't have gone this far.

Oh, so you used your test method to prove the DD does 1200 watts?

No just that its ratings were closer than Sundowns based on RAM's test. Not surprised you choose to elude the other requests for answers and again misread what was typed. A reading comprehension class should be in your future.

My question is how do average people determine which product is for them?

Because obviously we can't properly test any of the equipment..

We also can't go by manufacture rating either as they might not of tested properly either. And there way might of been different than others, so therefore not equal to others rating.

We can't go by SPL because of the 100s of variables with a swap out.

How do we know which is better?

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. You currently can't. If you are chasing tenths on a meter you are going to have to experiment. This means a lot of different boxes, aimings, alignments, and amplifiers. Just like everything else there is no rule of thumb that says you can use one specification to pick an amp.

Instead, stop focusing on minute details that probably don't matter that much anyways (again not chasing tenths) and buy from a reputable brand and dealer. Use references from those who actually know what components are and like the amplifier you are looking at. Just don't buy an amp with cheap crappy components. Amusingly, if you only trusted power tests and even if they were valid you could end up with an amp that with a limited life cycle based on its components although from the get go it might have made more power. Personally I want something that will last so when I am done with it I can sell it. Cost is always a funny term. To me cost is buying price - selling price and never just buying price. I'd much rather even spend 2x now if in the long run it would be less. Something that breaks or fails is never a good deal.

[aimone 4]

I asked cause i wanted a simple answer. not a long drawn out gettin way to deep into the technical shit argument. not tryin to be a dick but y do u smart guys & SQ guys like to argue so much?

[ssh 924]

I asked cause i wanted a simple answer. not a long drawn out gettin way to deep into the technical shit argument. not tryin to be a dick but y do u smart guys & SQ guys like to argue so much?

You just want the dumbed down version, there is no dumbed down version, all amps are tested differently, buy what you think is reputable from a company with good CS.

[ssh 924]

Don't let him kid you the SAZ-1500v.1 is a monster of an amp and yes the Sundown can operate daily at .5. The DDM1A is a good amplifier in itself but just not on par with the SAZ-1500D in terms of stability at .5 ohm.

Keep the SAZ-1500D you will be glad you did.

Where are you getting this information?

My local Sundown dealer is also a DD dealer and we did head to head testing! That's where i'm getting my information!

How did you test "stability", how about distortion, I feel like asking this is starting over everything m5 and Imp went over...