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I asked cause i wanted a simple answer. not a long drawn out gettin way to deep into the technical shit argument. not tryin to be a dick but y do u smart guys & SQ guys like to argue so much?

Its not arguing but clarifying. If some idiot says that you can't put more than 15w into a BTL and it will blow in the Fi forum would that be an argument? I know it'd be an ass kicking, but can't say that I'd consider it an argument. Just happen to be some people who are getting rubbed the wrong way by fact. Life is going to be hard on them.

Not so amusingly you didn't follow it anyways otherwise you'd have your answer, not simple, but nonetheless you surely didn't ask your question in a simple way either.

And one more time, there is no place on this forum for spouting of crap information that is wrong. That is the reason this is a better place than others. A thread should be helpful not only for the OP but also those that search and find it. Having crap information that misleads both you and the ones that search is not acceptable.

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Ok here's my thing.

Almost all tests have all variables you can't change. And unless you go back in time and in your original test replace the thing your testing.

I think if you rule out the variables that will cause the outcome of the test results to really vary. Then test equally, the outcome could be personally used to draw your own conclusion.

But I agree there are a lot of people comparing/testing and giving out invalid and biases result. But that's not going to change. Its just your job to find out for yourself why the outcome of the test came out the way it did. And if a variable caused one to be better than the other.

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Ok here's my thing.

Almost all tests have all variables you can't change. And unless you go back in time and in your original test replace the thing your testing.

I think if you rule out the variables that will cause the outcome of the test results to really vary. Then test equally, the outcome could be personally used to draw your own conclusion.

But I agree there are a lot of people comparing/testing and giving out invalid and biases result. But that's not going to change. Its just your job to find out for yourself why the outcome of the test came out the way it did. And if a variable caused one to be better than the other.

Test away, we weren't recommending that you don't :) Just make sure to calculate your true uncertainty so you know exactly what you are testing though...otherwise you really shouldn't bother with the test :fing34:

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I personally like to see other people's results with products and their reviews. I know about how many possible variables and I know just cause they had good results doesnt mean I will have the same. But as someone in the market for whatever it may be i appreciate all hands on experience. Just take it for what it is and make your own decision.

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I asked cause i wanted a simple answer. not a long drawn out gettin way to deep into the technical shit argument. not tryin to be a dick but y do u smart guys & SQ guys like to argue so much?

Its not arguing but clarifying. If some idiot says that you can't put more than 15w into a BTL and it will blow in the Fi forum would that be an argument? I know it'd be an ass kicking, but can't say that I'd consider it an argument. Just happen to be some people who are getting rubbed the wrong way by fact. Life is going to be hard on them.

Not so amusingly you didn't follow it anyways otherwise you'd have your answer, not simple, but nonetheless you surely didn't ask your question in a simple way either.

And one more time, there is no place on this forum for spouting of crap information that is wrong. That is the reason this is a better place than others. A thread should be helpful not only for the OP but also those that search and find it. Having crap information that misleads both you and the ones that search is not acceptable.

I totally agree with this.

Other forums are scared of real discussions and lock the thread before good info is really given.

Then delete the members who call out idiots, and prove them wrong with the correct information.

*This is a fact. As I was caught up in a forum that does this. And banned because I didn't allow idiots to post wrong/misleading info. On most forums people like reading informational post instead of wrong info post with little vags whining somebody proved them wrong.

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Ok here's my thing.

Almost all tests have all variables you can't change. And unless you go back in time and in your original test replace the thing your testing.

I think if you rule out the variables that will cause the outcome of the test results to really vary. Then test equally, the outcome could be personally used to draw your own conclusion.

But I agree there are a lot of people comparing/testing and giving out invalid and biases result. But that's not going to change. Its just your job to find out for yourself why the outcome of the test came out the way it did. And if a variable caused one to be better than the other.

Test away, we weren't recommending that you don't :) Just make sure to calculate your true uncertainty so you know exactly what you are testing though...otherwise you really shouldn't bother with the test :fing34:

Correct.

I think most personal testing, should stay just that personal. Unless asked for exactly, but then, list all your uncontrollable variables.

Example. I personally tested a ZX750.1 and SAZ1500d on the termlab. Exact swap out.

ZX tested 144.5dB

SAZ tested 145.6dB.

Double the "rated" power, but less than perfect 3dB, you will get in a perfect situation.

Which a lot of variables played into effect in why I didn't get the full 3dB.

Does it mean the Sundown doesn't do rated power? No.

But that isn't what I was testing. I was just testing SPL, and happen to do the switch out.

I'm glad this thread happened though. Its not that I gained a ton of new knowledge, just now have a new outlook on testing.

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Ok here's my thing.

Almost all tests have all variables you can't change. And unless you go back in time and in your original test replace the thing your testing.

I think if you rule out the variables that will cause the outcome of the test results to really vary. Then test equally, the outcome could be personally used to draw your own conclusion.

But I agree there are a lot of people comparing/testing and giving out invalid and biases result. But that's not going to change. Its just your job to find out for yourself why the outcome of the test came out the way it did. And if a variable caused one to be better than the other.

Test away, we weren't recommending that you don't :) Just make sure to calculate your true uncertainty so you know exactly what you are testing though...otherwise you really shouldn't bother with the test :fing34:

Correct.

I think most personal testing, should stay just that personal. Unless asked for exactly, but then, list all your uncontrollable variables.

Example. I personally tested a ZX750.1 and SAZ1500d on the termlab. Exact swap out.

ZX tested 144.5dB

SAZ tested 145.6dB.

Double the "rated" power, but less than perfect 3dB, you will get in a perfect situation.

Which a lot of variables played into effect in why I didn't get the full 3dB.

Does it mean the Sundown doesn't do rated power? No.

But that isn't what I was testing. I was just testing SPL, and happen to do the switch out.

I'm glad this thread happened though. Its not that I gained a ton of new knowledge, just now have a new outlook on testing.

God I hope I don't start up another argument...but what coils were you using that can be wired to one ohm to get full power from a SAZ-1500d at and then at two ohms to get full power from the ZX750.1? If both were tested at two ohms then that test makes a little more sense.

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Ok here's my thing.

Almost all tests have all variables you can't change. And unless you go back in time and in your original test replace the thing your testing.

I think if you rule out the variables that will cause the outcome of the test results to really vary. Then test equally, the outcome could be personally used to draw your own conclusion.

But I agree there are a lot of people comparing/testing and giving out invalid and biases result. But that's not going to change. Its just your job to find out for yourself why the outcome of the test came out the way it did. And if a variable caused one to be better than the other.

Test away, we weren't recommending that you don't :) Just make sure to calculate your true uncertainty so you know exactly what you are testing though...otherwise you really shouldn't bother with the test :fing34:

Correct.

I think most personal testing, should stay just that personal. Unless asked for exactly, but then, list all your uncontrollable variables.

Example. I personally tested a ZX750.1 and SAZ1500d on the termlab. Exact swap out.

ZX tested 144.5dB

SAZ tested 145.6dB.

Double the "rated" power, but less than perfect 3dB, you will get in a perfect situation.

Which a lot of variables played into effect in why I didn't get the full 3dB.

Does it mean the Sundown doesn't do rated power? No.

But that isn't what I was testing. I was just testing SPL, and happen to do the switch out.

I'm glad this thread happened though. Its not that I gained a ton of new knowledge, just now have a new outlook on testing.

God I hope I don't start up another argument...but what coils were you using that can be wired to one ohm to get full power from a SAZ-1500d at and then at two ohms to get full power from the ZX750.1? If both were tested at two ohms then that test makes a little more sense.

They was both wired to 1ohm.

The Kicker wouldn't play music below tuning, but would burp just fine.

Another variable of testing, I actually tested 3 amps. Just for fun. I didn't list the first because it was a Sony 1000w(this is what I call it. I say W, not watt because it isn't close to 1000watts.) I think its rated a 400RMS@4ohm bridged. I had it wired to 1ohm bridged. Lol. It didn't have any problem burping, only tried a few though, scared it was going to die on me.

But it is a good thing you asked instead of assuming and taking my word. That's semi what this thread was about.

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Hmm...but wouldn't that mean that the ZX would put out more than rated? Eh nvm, I understand your point 302. I'm really argument wary at this point.

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Just take it for what it is and make your own decision.

And here is my problem, and the entire reason I responded to this thread to start with and then continued to respond.

Hardly anybody takes these test for "what they are". I couldn't even begin to count the number of times someone just on this forum has referenced that Sundown amp test as "proof" of one thing or another (how underrated they are, that they do rated power at 12V, that they are more powerful than another amp, etc etc etc). They aren't taken "for what they are" by the general population because they don't have the critical thinking skills to understand what a test like that actually "proves", which is not much of anything. They are taken as fact without realizing the limitations of any particular test or measurement. The OP of this very thread made this mistake, which seems "simple" when you look at one individual. But when you realize how many people misinterpret the results, how many times it's used as "proof" of something it does nothing to prove.......it just exponentially spreads ignorance. And, to me, that's not acceptable.....atleast not on this forum.

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Don't let him kid you the SAZ-1500v.1 is a monster of an amp and yes the Sundown can operate daily at .5. The DDM1A is a good amplifier in itself but just not on par with the SAZ-1500D in terms of stability at .5 ohm.

Keep the SAZ-1500D you will be glad you did.

:morepower1:

Where are you getting this information?

My local Sundown dealer is also a DD dealer and we did head to head testing! That's where i'm getting my information!

How did you test "stability", how about distortion, I feel like asking this is starting over everything m5 and Imp went over...

Not sure what your getting at or trying to prove! :ughdunno:

Distortion? You have a Distortion Analyzer somebody can borrow? No did not test for distortion as we didn't have the appropriate test gear to measure.

Stability? 8 Kinetik HC2400's, Mechman 300 amp alt. Both amps were O-Scoped individually, crossover and SSF settings were matched best we could with naked eye. No bass Boost and HU set to 0 on Bass setting and Sub level out.

All we did to test was put it on the Term-Lab, running the amps at 1 ohm and at half ohm. Both amps were very comparable on SPL. The Sundown was louder on the meter. How much I cannot remember as it was over a year ago. The DD went into protect at half ohm when voltage dropped below 12 volts and the Sundown did not.

So I stand by my statement. "The DD M1A is a good amplifier in itself but just not on par with the SAZ-1500D in terms of stability at .5 ohm."

Keep the SAZ-1500D you will be glad you did.

:morepower1:

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Don't let him kid you the SAZ-1500v.1 is a monster of an amp and yes the Sundown can operate daily at .5. The DDM1A is a good amplifier in itself but just not on par with the SAZ-1500D in terms of stability at .5 ohm.

Keep the SAZ-1500D you will be glad you did.

:morepower1:

Where are you getting this information?

My local Sundown dealer is also a DD dealer and we did head to head testing! That's where i'm getting my information!

How did you test "stability", how about distortion, I feel like asking this is starting over everything m5 and Imp went over...

Not sure what your getting at or trying to prove! :ughdunno:

Distortion? You have a Distortion Analyzer somebody can borrow? No did not test for distortion as we didn't have the appropriate test gear to measure.

Stability? 8 Kinetik HC2400's, Mechman 300 amp alt. Both amps were O-Scoped individually, crossover and SSF settings were matched best we could with naked eye. No bass Boost and HU set to 0 on Bass setting and Sub level out.

All we did to test was put it on the Term-Lab, running the amps at 1 ohm and at half ohm. Both amps were very comparable on SPL. The Sundown was louder on the meter. How much I cannot remember as it was over a year ago. The DD went into protect at half ohm when voltage dropped below 12 volts and the Sundown did not.

So I stand by my statement. "The DD M1A is a good amplifier in itself but just not on par with the SAZ-1500D in terms of stability at .5 ohm."

Keep the SAZ-1500D you will be glad you did.

:morepower1:

Answers my main question. Interpretation plays a big part, on one hand you could say the DD has a better protection design from keeping the amp damaged, where as the sundown lacks. But on the flip side, the sundown works at 0.5ohm and doesn't have any problems as long as it has enough amperage to back it up. So the sundown may not have a lacking protection circuit, just plain works at .5 but is primarily designed for 1ohm and up. Any how thanks for the response, :)

I'll still never run my amps at 0.5 though haha.

Anyone know if there was 1ohm stable car audio amps in 2000? 90s?

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Answers my main question. Interpretation plays a big part, on one hand you could say the DD has a better protection design from keeping the amp damaged, where as the sundown lacks. But on the flip side, the sundown works at 0.5ohm and doesn't have any problems as long as it has enough amperage to back it up. So the sundown may not have a lacking protection circuit, just plain works at .5 but is primarily designed for 1ohm and up. Any how thanks for the response, :)

I'll still never run my amps at 0.5 though haha.

Anyone know if there was 1ohm stable car audio amps in 2000? 90s?

:WELCOME:

MMATS was makeing half ohm, 1 ohm stable amps back in the mid 90's.

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Answers my main question. Interpretation plays a big part, on one hand you could say the DD has a better protection design from keeping the amp damaged, where as the sundown lacks. But on the flip side, the sundown works at 0.5ohm and doesn't have any problems as long as it has enough amperage to back it up. So the sundown may not have a lacking protection circuit, just plain works at .5 but is primarily designed for 1ohm and up. Any how thanks for the response, :)

I'll still never run my amps at 0.5 though haha.

Anyone know if there was 1ohm stable car audio amps in 2000? 90s?

:WELCOME:

MMATS was makeing half ohm, 1 ohm stable amps back in the mid 90's.

sweet.

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Hmm...but wouldn't that mean that the ZX would put out more than rated? Eh nvm, I understand your point 302. I'm really argument wary at this point.

To many variables to decided either way.

Power compression could of came into play with the Sundown.

Also, the Kicker was ran below rated impedance, this could of also effect the outcome.

Those are just two of the many variables that effected the outcome.

So you really can't draw a conclusion either way.

Only thing that I proved was, in my setup, the Sundown was loudest in SPL. Which was the only thing I measured and cared about at the time.

Not like I was comparing for a reason, just did it for fun, as I had three amps laying around. And I was just curious.

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Don't let him kid you the SAZ-1500v.1 is a monster of an amp and yes the Sundown can operate daily at .5. The DDM1A is a good amplifier in itself but just not on par with the SAZ-1500D in terms of stability at .5 ohm.

Keep the SAZ-1500D you will be glad you did.

:morepower1:

Where are you getting this information?

My local Sundown dealer is also a DD dealer and we did head to head testing! That's where i'm getting my information!

How did you test "stability", how about distortion, I feel like asking this is starting over everything m5 and Imp went over...

Not sure what your getting at or trying to prove! :ughdunno:

Distortion? You have a Distortion Analyzer somebody can borrow? No did not test for distortion as we didn't have the appropriate test gear to measure.

Stability? 8 Kinetik HC2400's, Mechman 300 amp alt. Both amps were O-Scoped individually, crossover and SSF settings were matched best we could with naked eye. No bass Boost and HU set to 0 on Bass setting and Sub level out.

All we did to test was put it on the Term-Lab, running the amps at 1 ohm and at half ohm. Both amps were very comparable on SPL. The Sundown was louder on the meter. How much I cannot remember as it was over a year ago. The DD went into protect at half ohm when voltage dropped below 12 volts and the Sundown did not.

So I stand by my statement. "The DD M1A is a good amplifier in itself but just not on par with the SAZ-1500D in terms of stability at .5 ohm."

Keep the SAZ-1500D you will be glad you did.

:morepower1:

Odd, a friend keeps his M3 stable at quarter ohm. Pointless? Sure, but it's stable and its what he does.

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He never said it wasn't stable that low. Re-read the comment you highlighted. All he said was that the Sundown was more stable at .5 ohm than the DD was. Which was determined by whatever test he performed on it which I am not saying was right or wrong.

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He never said it wasn't stable that low. Re-read the comment you highlighted. All he said was that the Sundown was more stable at .5 ohm than the DD was. Which was determined by whatever test he performed on it which I am not saying was right or wrong.

Ah, I see that now.

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Plus, your comparing two totally different DD amps, and they will act differently. So what was your point?

I can ramble off the amp I have will do .0125(four dual 1 all wired in parallel), but does that mean all amps will?

Come on now, did you even read this thread or understand the points being made?

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Plus, your comparing two totally different DD amps, and they will act differently. So what was your point?

I can ramble off the amp I have will do .0125(four dual 1 all wired in parallel), but does that mean all amps will?

Come on now, did you even read this thread or understand the points being made?

If its so totally different, tell me what the difference is, besides wattage. :)

When did I recommend someone run their amp that low? I just said that he does.

Yes, I skimmed the last couple of pages, though, out of lack of time, but it is about how there is no "real world test" and variables must be the exact same across the board to be considered accurate and say that one amp is better than another. Also, we shouldnt take amps at face value of doing true power, there will be some "give" in their ratings.

Did you even read my last post? I misread 98GMC's post and didnt see how they tested, so I admitted my mistake.

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Yes, I skimmed the last couple of pages, though, out of lack of time, but it is about how there is no "real world test" and variables must be the exact same across the board to be considered accurate and say that one amp is better than another.

Not quite. Uncertainties should be known, measured, and reported. It does not have to be the same.

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Plus, your comparing two totally different DD amps, and they will act differently. So what was your point?

I can ramble off the amp I have will do .0125(four dual 1 all wired in parallel), but does that mean all amps will?

Come on now, did you even read this thread or understand the points being made?

If its so totally different, tell me what the difference is, besides wattage. :)

When did I recommend someone run their amp that low? I just said that he does.

Yes, I skimmed the last couple of pages, though, out of lack of time, but it is about how there is no "real world test" and variables must be the exact same across the board to be considered accurate and say that one amp is better than another. Also, we shouldnt take amps at face value of doing true power, there will be some "give" in their ratings.

Did you even read my last post? I misread 98GMC's post and didnt see how they tested, so I admitted my mistake.

What's the same besides DD logo and maybe a few components.

Stating pieces that are the same would probably be a smaller list.

There different designs(to a certain extent). And you can't compare that one does this, and the other would do it.

Like me give you a example.

The original 20.1 loved low impedances, efficiency went to hell, but regardless, wiring it low, it would run all day.

The original 40.1, didn't like low impedances near as much. You couldn't even hardly burp it at .5ohms. Muchless run it at a 1/4ohm like the 20.1 would do.

Do you follow me yet? These mades was made at the same place, and sold by the same company, but wouldn't do the exact same.

So until you know for a fact the amp in question will do what your claiming, don't answer.

Knowing the M3 will do it, doesn't automatically mean the M1 will.

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Actually there is a difference between the m3 and m1a. The m-a series are rated at 11.9 and have low voltage power supplies. The normal discontinued m series were rated at 14.4 and lacked those power supplies.

I do know that m1a will play that low, actually. Plus its probably more stable than his m3, since the a series are stronger amps.

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Actually there is a difference between the m3 and m1a. The m-a series are rated at 11.9 and have low voltage power supplies. The normal discontinued m series were rated at 14.4 and lacked those power supplies.

I do know that m1a will play that low, actually. Plus its probably more stable than his m3, since the a series are stronger amps.

I'm not saying it will or won't.

I was just saying don't come in here saying, hey my M3 will, so automatically, you assume the M1 will.

If you know the m1 will,that's cool.

Plus I find running at a low impedance stupid. And usually only causes problems. But that's just MY opinions. People do it all the time without any. But the few that take there cheaper built amps and do it because everybody else is, and when it breaks whines about the product and in return turns people away from it.

All because people like you say, my amp will, so they assume theirs does.

Then look at the manufacture to fix it.

Also, just because you can do it with the amp doesn't mean everybody can. A lot of variables determining either way. That's what this thread was about. People giving uncertain answers as facts and not accounting for unknown variables.

Enough rant. You get the point.

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Actually there is a difference between the m3 and m1a. The m-a series are rated at 11.9 and have low voltage power supplies. The normal discontinued m series were rated at 14.4 and lacked those power supplies.

I do know that m1a will play that low, actually. Plus its probably more stable than his m3, since the a series are stronger amps.

I'm not saying it will or won't.

I was just saying don't come in here saying, hey my M3 will, so automatically, you assume the M1 will.

If you know the m1 will,that's cool.

Plus I find running at a low impedance stupid. And usually only causes problems. But that's just MY opinions. People do it all the time without any. But the few that take there cheaper built amps and do it because everybody else is, and when it breaks whines about the product and in return turns people away from it.

All because people like you say, my amp will, so they assume theirs does.

Then look at the manufacture to fix it.

Also, just because you can do it with the amp doesn't mean everybody can. A lot of variables determining either way. That's what this thread was about. People giving uncertain answers as facts and not accounting for unknown variables.

Enough rant. You get the point.

Yep, I'll never run my amps that low, either.

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