doubling amp power : results ?

[Notorious97200 339]

I recently installed a new amp. I had a Sundown saz 1500 on my btl n2 12", and now I run a Sundown saz 3000.

The box is 2.1 ft3 net, slot ported to 32 Hz.

I am a little ...worried ! I thought the change would be HUGE, but no, it is not !

I think it's louder, but I've never mesured it.

Do you think I expected too much from the new amp ?

My electrical seems to handle that power fine, I did not expect that !!! Only 2 batteries on a (solid) stock alt. I have a diesel engine.

[Sencheezy 689]

Hmmm, I thought, if you doubled the power, you will see any where from 1 to 3 db increase?? Maybe 1 to 3 db increase is not noticable?

[///M5 2,833]

Not surprised at all. Exactly my point in the SMD Distortion analyzer thread.

[Notorious97200 339]

So you're saying it's normal ?

I was afraid the amplifier was at fault. I bought it refurb from db-r, and I felt the packaging was not really strong for so much weight. Nothing seems broke though !

I don't say it's not louder, only that I thought it would be much much louder !

The big surprise for me was that the car electrical seems to like it !!! But I do not play for long period : mostly on my commute (15 min) and not always at full tilt. so I never push it for long !

One day, I will try a system with 2 subs, like 2 10"s or 12"s on this power !

[BanginGMC 23]

What's your voltage at on full tilt and your normal playing level?

[Notorious97200 339]

At full tilt : 13.6 v , it never changes with the lower playing level. It only goes down to 13.3 with the A/C on, and goes up to 13.6 when I turn it off.

I never understood that : with or without the system playing, I never see voltages drops. But remember that (in my very small island), I never play for more than 15 minutes !

On the morning I can see 14.13 v for a moment, and it goes down to 13.6 v before I get to work, so maybe after 10 minutes.

At lunch time it only gets to 13.8 v at the start, but it's hot here, 30 ° C minimum ! and goes down to 13.6 v.

I did not finish the big 3 : I still have to get to the "hidden" alt to add a big wire from alt(+) to the battery (+). But everywher it's 0 ga wire (Stinger hpm or something, not even pure cooper).

[///M5 2,833]

So you're saying it's normal ?

Of course. In particular when not listening to back to back. To most people the difference shouldn't be noticeable. All these people using huge amps amuse me.

[Notorious97200 339]

I must agree with you ///M5 : now I know !!!

Hopefully my car seems to accept it easily without any HO alt !!!

[BanginGMC 23]

You aren't even seeing 3k from that amp, voltage isn't high enough.

[Notorious97200 339]

Really ? Sundown amps needs way more ?

I don't need to have the full 3000, but I'm quite sure I have more power than with the saz 1500 !

[Notorious97200 339]

I have more rattles and noises in the car !

[95Honda 486]

Without an accurate measurement of your impedance at the frequency you are operating at, you, and nobody else, will be able to tell you what that amplifer should put out at any input voltage....

[bassahaulic 155]

Few questions.

What was the voltage drop with the 1,500? What is it now?

Same ohm loads?

[Notorious97200 339]

Same voltage "drop" ! Same Ohm loads. Same box and sub.

Maybe the problem is that I don't play my system long enough to see real voltage drops.

The stock battery is big, I don't remember any specs. When I added recently a Kinetic 1200 in the back, the only change I saw was a higher and more stable voltage with engine off.with the engine on, it is quite the same !

Only upgrade with visible results was each of the 0 ga grounds I did.

That's it !

Thanks guys !

[bassahaulic 155]

Same voltage "drop" ! Same Ohm loads. Same box and sub.

Maybe the problem is that I don't play my system long enough to see real voltage drops.

The stock battery is big, I don't remember any specs. When I added recently a Kinetic 1200 in the back, the only change I saw was a higher and more stable voltage with engine off.with the engine on, it is quite the same !

Only upgrade with visible results was each of the 0 ga grounds I did.

That's it !

Thanks guys !

You didn't double power, a true double in power would lead to a higher voltage drop. I'd say turn amp up....

[Luke.H 33]

Funny I was just asking a similar question. I doubt the amp is broken though. Dbr is very good in my experience and from what I've read.

[Notorious97200 339]

The amp seems to work fine. No overheating so far.

I've cranked it up , as you say !

I'm still learning about caraudio.

I was just expecting something different.

But it's loud, don't worry.

[BanginGMC 23]

What is the gain set at? You saying you cranked it up and that you are still learning about car audio worries me.

Also, what is the preout voltage on the head unit?

[Notorious97200 339]

You never stop learning ! It's not my first system, and I've never blown anything so far. I'm not an expert at all, but I know one or two things

I have always set gain by ears, I turn it up until it does not sound good, and I listen carefully to my system so I can turn it down if I feel something is bad.

It's the biggest amp I've ever had. so, I'm a little worried.

The h u is a Pioneer deh p88rs II (european model of the p 88 rs, or p 800 rs), it has 4 v preouts.

Do I need to turn the bass volume up on the head unit to set the gain ? I always let it at 0 db, and it can goes way up.

That would let me have the gain knoob lower. I've always asked myself this question !!

thanks for your input, guys.

[Impious 1,476]

Under ideal conditions the difference would be 3db, which is noticeable but not dramatically louder. Factor in power compression and other real world affects and the increase is going to be somewhere significantly less than 3db, making the expected results somewhere between "no difference" and "noticeable". Your results are pretty much exactly what is to be expected. Your expectations were simply too high.

Assuming the "bass volume" on the HU is a level control for the sub output on the headunit and not a bass boost then yes you can turn it up (and in turn lower your gain setting).

Do you have a DMM?

[Notorious97200 339]

My expectations were too high, for sure ! That's why I said I'm still learning about car audio. I'm not a total , and I love to learn !

I was afraid about the amp, but it is ok. I may not have all the 3000 watts available, but it's good .

Now I'm sure I would have better numbers on the meter, there is more "power" or compression in the car !

Yes the "bass volume" is a level control for sub output, and not a bass boost ! the bass boost is set at minimum ( = 0) on the head unit.

I don't have a DMM anymore, but it's cheap, I can get one easily. I already have good test tones to set the gain on the bass amp.

I always felt easier to adjust gain by ears for the mids & highs amps, in all my cars, and all my systems.

I will try to lower the gain setting on the amp by turning up the level control for sub output.

[Shogen 325]

I've always assumed not matter the product... HU or home theater receiver that putting the output level to the "+" is adding to the sound not leaving it at its "true" stating.. Meaning is an overall "boost" which I do not like to do... Less control when a device is "adding" sound/elements to the output.... Just maybe it is bad for a control unit to "add" to your sound...

[Notorious97200 339]

I've always assumed not matter the product... HU or home theater receiver that putting the output level to the "+" is adding to the sound not leaving it at its "true" stating.. Meaning is an overall "boost" which I do not like to do... Less control when a device is "adding" sound/elements to the output.... Just maybe it is bad for a control unit to "add" to your sound...

I was feeling the same thing, Shogen !

But I do trust what Impious told me. I have never received bad advices from the SSA mods ! They have helped me with subs, amps, midbass speakers, electrical,... I did all they told me, on my car, and on my friend's (my installer / box builder) car too !!!

[Impious 1,476]

My expectations were too high, for sure ! That's why I said I'm still learning about car audio. I'm not a total , and I love to learn !

I was afraid about the amp, but it is ok. I may not have all the 3000 watts available, but it's good .

Now I'm sure I would have better numbers on the meter, there is more "power" or compression in the car !

Yes the "bass volume" is a level control for sub output, and not a bass boost ! the bass boost is set at minimum ( = 0) on the head unit.

I don't have a DMM anymore, but it's cheap, I can get one easily. I already have good test tones to set the gain on the bass amp.

I always felt easier to adjust gain by ears for the mids & highs amps, in all my cars, and all my systems.

I will try to lower the gain setting on the amp by turning up the level control for sub output.

Grab a DMM, play a 50hz or so test tone and measure the voltage output (set the meter to AC Volts) of the subwoofer RCA output on the headunit with the volume about 80% of the way up. Disconnect the RCA from the sub amp and put the positive DMM lead on the inner nipple (yes, I said nipple) and the negative DMM lead on the outer ring.

[Impious 1,476]

I've always assumed not matter the product... HU or home theater receiver that putting the output level to the "+" is adding to the sound not leaving it at its "true" stating.. Meaning is an overall "boost" which I do not like to do... Less control when a device is "adding" sound/elements to the output.... Just maybe it is bad for a control unit to "add" to your sound...

Meh, you're over thinking it. The level controls are there to aid in you level matching the speakers. You are level matching one way or the other, whether you do it with the amp gains or the level on the headunit or by some other means. Using those level controls to level match the speakers isn't necessarily bad in and of itself.

One thing I don't know about on the Pioneer HU's, which is kind of what I'm trying to find out, is at what level setting the preamp voltage is rated. For example, it might be rated at 4V output, but the subwoofer level setting might need to be at maximum for the preamp to output that much voltage. So leaving it set at 0 might be significantly reducing the amount of voltage output from the HU, which if you combine that with an improperly set gain (one not set high enough for the low preamp voltage level) might be "reducing" the amount of power the amplifier is able to deliver. I.E. it might benefit him to turn the level setting up some if the preamp voltage is abysmal with it set to 0.

It's a long shot, but figured it's worth a shot before we just tell him that he's screwed and wasted his money.