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dB Don

Sundown SAZ-1500D in the Blazer......

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I apologize for my crappy filming and editing skills, my talents are elsewhere.

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Good deal. Nice vid to boot. Congrats on the new upgrade. :P

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Well it's no where near as loud as the stetsom 7k's but who really drives around with 162 dB all the time. This will do me just fine till I get my new amps!

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O_o New amps??!!! Is someone waiting for a shipment of NS-1s to come in :D Keep the good stuff coming. It cracks me up it says "newbie" under your user name. "Newbie", yeah right. :P

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This is a PERFECT example of why cone area is king. Every time someone posts asking about upgrading amps and they hate the answers they get (which is usually keeping their current amp) from the members here they need to see this. 14kw compared to 1500 and it only made about a 6dB difference? At about a 10x difference in power? Standard theory says that 6dB difference should have been made at 6kw. Sure wish more people could understand that.

On the other hand, that's a terrific score on that power difference. Love the video.

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This is a PERFECT example of why cone area is king. Every time someone posts asking about upgrading amps and they hate the answers they get (which is usually keeping their current amp) from the members here they need to see this. 14kw compared to 1500 and it only made about a 6dB difference? At about a 10x difference in power? Standard theory says that 6dB difference should have been made at 6kw. Sure wish more people could understand that.

On the other hand, that's a terrific score on that power difference. Love the video.

I don't know what your talking about. What this guy has done is just magical. Cone area or not, those are 3k rated N3s getting just under 400watts each. There's more to it than just cone area. I don't think the same is possible with 4 dcons. Then again I don't know much about anything. Very impressive vid none the less.

Edited by onebadmonte

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I am clamping just a hair over 3kw so that's a lot more than most will get from this amp. And I run it at .35 ohm (rise to 1.3 ohm) so that and the 18 volt account for the increase over 1500 wrms. So it's more like 750 wrms per subwoofer.

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This is a PERFECT example of why cone area is king. Every time someone posts asking about upgrading amps and they hate the answers they get (which is usually keeping their current amp) from the members here they need to see this. 14kw compared to 1500 and it only made about a 6dB difference? At about a 10x difference in power? Standard theory says that 6dB difference should have been made at 6kw. Sure wish more people could understand that.

On the other hand, that's a terrific score on that power difference. Love the video.

I don't know what your talking about. What this guy has done is just magical. Cone area or not, those are 3k rated N3s getting just under 400watts each. There's more to it than just cone area. I don't think the same is possible with 4 dcons. Then again I don't know much about anything. Very impressive vid none the less.

I was referring ONLY to the fact that power is the least economical way to get louder. That point, as I said, is in reference to all the questions people ask about buying new amps when the power difference is insignificant. I was in no way undermining what he's done. In fact I find it quite amazing. I know I couldn't do it with any combination of equipment. I was just trying to point out that considering he only lost about 6dB with a 10x reduction in power proves that power is the least economical way to get louder. Think of it backwards. Had he gone to the 14kw from the 1500D and only gained 6dB a lot of people would think there was something wrong. That he should have gained more than that.

I think that much output from that single 1500 is amazing. I also believe that 161, 162 is crazy loud. He's got a great setup.

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I am clamping just a hair over 3kw so that's a lot more than most will get from this amp. And I run it at .35 ohm (rise to 1.3 ohm) so that and the 18 volt account for the increase over 1500 wrms. So it's more like 750 wrms per subwoofer.

Even so, that's STILL hella loud outta that amp.

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In reply to the cone area is king comment I would have to say that there is a time for power and lots of it and there is a time and place for cone area over adding power. Learning what situations call for when wanting to get louder, lower or whatever is the real truth. I can explain if anyone needs.

My vehicle qualifies for IASCA middleweight class I am limited by four 15" and the Stetsoms got me a 157+ and if/when I ever see a certified show I want to knock it out of the park. That's why I need more power. The N3's were not limiting.

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This is a PERFECT example of why cone area is king. Every time someone posts asking about upgrading amps and they hate the answers they get (which is usually keeping their current amp) from the members here they need to see this. 14kw compared to 1500 and it only made about a 6dB difference? At about a 10x difference in power? Standard theory says that 6dB difference should have been made at 6kw. Sure wish more people could understand that.

I was referring ONLY to the fact that power is the least economical way to get louder. That point, as I said, is in reference to all the questions people ask about buying new amps when the power difference is insignificant......I was just trying to point out that considering he only lost about 6dB with a 10x reduction in power proves that power is the least economical way to get louder.

I've been preaching that for years.

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Also keep in mind when you buy more power you have to buy more supply power as well. More batteries, wire, alternators, etc...... So what Alton's point is if you can add cone area, explore that option before you decide anything else, unless your limited by a certain class restriction.

That's all ya need to say Alton :)

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In reply to the cone area is king comment I would have to say that there is a time for power and lots of it and there is a time and place for cone area over adding power. Learning what situations call for when wanting to get louder, lower or whatever is the real truth. I can explain if anyone needs.

My vehicle qualifies for IASCA middleweight class I am limited by four 15" and the Stetsoms got me a 157+ and if/when I ever see a certified show I want to knock it out of the park. That's why I need more power. The N3's were not limiting.

I can see that, and totally agree. I've just been speaking on general terms. Or at least that's what I've been trying to point out and only pointing out in reference to every one of the general questions people tend to ask about getting louder. Such as when they ask about buying a 1200 watt amp to replace their 1k amp. Or they think they're wanting to compete and ask if getting a 1500 watt amp for their pair of 12's would get them that much louder than their 800 watt amp does. General terms, nothing on the level you're building and competing at.

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Also keep in mind when you buy more power you have to buy more supply power as well. More batteries, wire, alternators, etc...... So what Alton's point is if you can add cone area, explore that option before you decide anything else, unless your limited by a certain class restriction.

That's all ya need to say Alton smile.png

Lol, thanx, and yeah, that's where I was trying to go. :D

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In reply to the cone area is king comment I would have to say that there is a time for power and lots of it and there is a time and place for cone area over adding power. Learning what situations call for when wanting to get louder, lower or whatever is the real truth. I can explain if anyone needs.

I would like to hear your explanation.

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In reply to the cone area is king comment I would have to say that there is a time for power and lots of it and there is a time and place for cone area over adding power. Learning what situations call for when wanting to get louder, lower or whatever is the real truth. I can explain if anyone needs.

I would like to hear your explanation.

I second the motion. :P Your truck is very very interesting dbDon. There is a local chap with a similar truck trying to do the same as you are but nowhere near as loud. He is using some quality gear. I myself would like to gather the knowledge to one day give it a try myself. :)

Now knowing that dbDon is clamping nearly 3k out of the Sundown1500 the 6db gain is more inline with theory of double the power, gain 3db. Also just to clarify, I understand the economics involved when stepping up to bigger amps versus adding cone area.

This is all very interesting.

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Ok so here are a few examples:

1. Guy comes into shop, he has a minivan his mom gave him for his 16th birthday and he has a 1000w clarion amp and two 10" craptasic ten inch subs. He says he does not compete and will give up whatever space is needed.... "I want to be louder" he says but cannot afford another alternator or batteries. -What do you recommend?

2. Guy comes into shop and is a regular street competitor but already has say, two DD95 series 12" subs and a 2000wrms amp. He cant go more subs because he is limited to a couple 12". -What do you recommend?

3. Business guy comes into the shop and wants a kick ass loud set-up but doesn't want to give up much space past a sealed single 12" in the rear corner, and will never compete. Money is no object and its a 1994 fully restored acura integra hatchback. -What do you do?

Each case has a guy who wants a louder system but more cone area is not always the answer. Tell me what you would do in each case and I will tell you if your correct or not.

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I have a feeling playing this game will probably turn out to be a poor decision on my part, we'll see.

If I were a typical stereo shop employee working on commission I would determine the customers budget, talk him into spending 15-25% more than his budget for items he "absolutely needs", and then sell him anything and everything I could in order to maximize commission/sales figures. Gotta pay the bills somehow.

If we are operating on the basis that "honesty is the best policy", I wouldn't sell any of them more power (well, except the last guy as he apparently doesn't have an amp, so any power would be "more power". Though I'd only sell him what's necessary to reach his output goals with the selected subwoofer in the selected enclosure for his needs, unless we are going for the "headroom" route). I'll focus on #2 because I'm assuming that's the bated "more power" question. I'll also assume that "regular street competitor" means he's a parking lot hero showing off for his friends and not competing in an organization since no specific class or competition organization was mentioned.

The reason I wouldn't sell him more power is because I fail to see the cost and time effectiveness compared to the return on investment audibly. By the time you factor in power compression you would need to more than double his power output, plus the associated upgrades to the electrical system and wiring to even approach something considered "audible". What's the cost on that? Potentially several grand, before labor cost if it's necessary? Just to have an audible change. Equivalent yields could easily be gained by evaluating his enclosure design relating to his goals/constraints/listening habits/etc, evaluating the subwoofer selection for his enclosure space & other constraints, acceptable alterations to the vehicle, system settings, current electrical system, etc etc. Adding power generally has the highest cost and the lowest return on increase in output, and that ratio only gets worse as you move up in power. You reach the the point of diminishing returns much more quickly in this area when we are focused on increases in audible output.

About the only time I really see "more power" as an acceptable answer is 1) SPL competitors seeking every .1db on a meter, by all means upgrade power until you can't gain anymore or you reach your class limitations, 2) the unusual & extreme circumstances where someone is running a mega-small amplifier on a mega-power subwoofer & looking to gain output. Increasing from 300w to 2000w on something like a BTL should obviously net positive audible gain....but really how many people with a BTL are presently running 300w on a permanent, full time basis and can't figure out why they aren't as loud as other BTL owners?

Once you get up into the multiple kilowatt range to start, I fail to see the advantage of increasing power for anything not chasing numbers on a meter when gains couldn't already be made more efficiently and effectively by other means. The required increase in power and added expense doesn't make sense for a daily driver, unless it's an unofficial penis measuring contest based on amplifier power.

Tell me what you would do in each case and I will tell you if your correct or not.

There's more than one way to skin a cat. There's not so much a "right" and "wrong".....responses will fall on a scale between more effective/lowest cost to lower effectiveness/highest cost. You'll have a hard time convincing me "more power", in all but extreme cases, is not going to fall on the latter end of that scale. Just because cone area can not be increased in a specific scenario doesn't mean there aren't other avenues to pursue outside of "add more power" that will yield not only more effective results, but also do so at a lower cost.

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Ok so here are a few examples:

1. Guy comes into shop, he has a minivan his mom gave him for his 16th birthday and he has a 1000w clarion amp and two 10" craptasic ten inch subs. He says he does not compete and will give up whatever space is needed.... "I want to be louder" he says but cannot afford another alternator or batteries. -What do you recommend?

A: Key here is he cannot afford to purchase new alternators or batteries and since factory electrical systems cannot support much more that his 1000wrms you must recommend he move up to a better more efficient pair of subwoofers that are within his price range and design an efficient enclosure that works from efficiency and give him that desired extra bit of bass. In this case it is better to go with slightly more cone area and build a more efficient enclosure. If there was any budget left maybe work on the cabin of the vehicle to get an additional dB.

2. Guy comes into shop and is a regular street competitor but already has say, two DD95 series 12" subs and a 2000wrms amp. He cant go more subs because he is limited to a couple 12". -What do you recommend?

A: This guy obviously competes in dB Drag and limited to the size and Qty of subwoofers, so depending on his budget you could upgrade him to a set of Z's, new battery, wires and a set of amplifiers that do better than his current amp. Efficiency is key here so some wire would also be recommended under the hood and inbetween the front to back. Some additional funds could be put into sound deadening and some time in the shop tweaking the car for its hidden dBs in the cabin. In this case it is better to transfer as much and more power from the battery to the subwoofers so bigger battery, amps, more wire, higher level subwoofers proven in the lanes and work on the vehicle to meet the goals.

3. Business guy comes into the shop and wants a kick ass loud set-up but doesn't want to give up much space past a sealed single 12" in the rear corner, and will never compete. Money is no object and its a 1994 fully restored acura integra hatchback. -What do you do?

A; Well this is music to any salesman/installers ears and allows you to be in total control of the outcome despite the price. Upgrade the battery, Alternator, wire, and complete front end. You now have to drop in the best 12" woofer you can get for a 12" subwoofer and power it accordingly dictated by of course the charging system and woofers abilities. he trick with this type of request is you can actually gain about 2-3 dB in these cars with sealing and sound deadening so your gains will seem all that more impressive. In the end this guy might have a fairly impressive set up that goes extremely loud to the average person and you have met each of the goals asked of you even though you were not able to dump a ton of cone or power at the problem.

Each case has a guy who wants a louder system but more cone area is not always the answer. Tell me what you would do in each case and I will tell you if your correct or not.

So as you can see there "IS" a right and wrong way to do people requests of getting louder but you must first have all the information or you fail even before you have started. In all my 20+ years installing I have been spot on when I know all the information about a request. If you notice one common thing among all answers is if you have any budget left over it has to be put into the cabin and getting it to be supportive of the bass, getting back gains just from sealing holes or deadening a cancellation from moving panels can make bigger gains than adding power or cone area in some cases so it always needs to be a third option.

There's no need to over-complicate things when you know all the information from a request, so if you see guys asking how to get louder ALWAYS ask for all the information first.

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Sorry, but that was a fairly round about way of saying you agree with what myself & Alton said. I really fail to see how you "proved" anything other than you can make up answers to questions that you created and you can fill in the blanks that you created. Although I do find it humorous that for #2 you start with "depending on his budget" & then recommend $5K+ worth of "upgrades".....seems the main thing you accomplished was fitting the mold I outlined here:

If I were a typical stereo shop employee working on commission I would determine the customers budget, talk him into spending 15-25% more than his budget for items he "absolutely needs", and then sell him anything and everything I could in order to maximize commission/sales figures. Gotta pay the bills somehow.

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lol I agreed with you guys yes, but you can't say any one way is better than the other.

And not once in my life did I ever sell anyone anything more than they needed just make money on a product. Actually I wasn't even a salesman I was the guy doing the install and I usually saved them money with what I learned over the years. I even would tell customers to return items that were vast overkill for what was needed.

Anyone who has talked or worked with me will agree I am sure.

Edited by dB Don

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