Door project and 3 way active

[stiffler style 9]

I have my gcon in and it absolutely exceeds my expectations so now onto the next project. I want to go 3 way active and do a good door install. I have plenty of mdf and some mdf rings already. I also have duct seal to help add mass to the baffles.

My goal is to increase midbass and keep the top end sparkle hence why I want to go 3 way instead of trying to pair a dedicated midbass with a tweeter or fullrange. My doors have a 6.5" speaker and a 2.5" speaker stock so that's what I am working with. I cannot alter the outside appearance of the door panel.

My constraints are:

Midbass: 6.5-7" and max of 3.5" deep

Midrange: 2-3.5" and max of 3" deep.

The tweeter is mounted above the door in the corner panel and I have not investigated that yet.

How should I go about doing the baffles? I am planning on deadening the door as well. My plan is to use mdf to make the baffles and mount them to the door instead of the door panel. Then I would use plexiglass to seal off the back of the baffles and duct seal to add mass all the way around the baffles. I think I would rather have a sealed enclosure instead of a leaky ib door. Is plexiglass a good choice to seal off the back of the baffle? Also should I consider using something like an aperiodic vent? I've got egg carton foam to put behind the speaker as well.

This is all I have right now. Thoughts? Suggestions?

http://i.imgur.com/gJjf7l.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/vaehtl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/39brel.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/MGL5Bl.jpg

Just to give you an idea of what I'm working with. Obviously the rings will not be mounted to the panel. I'll get some more pictures of them rigged to the actual doors next.

Thanks!

Edited October 19, 2012 by stiffler style

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

It's gonna depend on the speakers.

[ssh 924]

If you don't have any experience with an active setup then I highly suggest doing a 2-way. It will be much easier, and there simply isn't any real good reason you need a 3-way.

[ssh 924]

I'm a little confused when you say mounted to the door, and not door panel, but have mdf baffles on the door panel?

[stiffler style 9]

It's gonna depend on the speakers.

I thought install then find a speaker. As in the install is the most important part.

Stef, I have been looking at some midbasses that I might consider and none of them work well in a two-way. Hence the 3-way I want. I know I'll be spending countless hours tweaking, but I've got plenty of time. It seems to be that you either get 2-way and decent midbass or 3-way with midbass with authority. I'm after the latter.

I just had the mdf panels laid on the door panel to give people an idea of where the speakers are on the door and because I have to modify the rings to fit when the door panel is attached.

Edited October 19, 2012 by stiffler style

[ssh 924]

It's gonna depend on the speakers.

I thought install then find a speaker. As in the install is the most important part.

Stef, I have been looking at some midbasses that I might consider and none of them work well in a two-way. Hence the 3-way I want. I know I'll be spending countless hours tweaking, but I've got plenty of time. It seems to be that you either get 2-way and decent midbass or 3-way with midbass with authority. I'm after the latter.

I just had the mdf panels laid on the door panel to give people an idea of where the speakers are on the door and because I have to modify the rings to fit when the door panel is attached.

So the speakers will end up being mounted to the mdf baffles that will be attached to the sheet metal? Definitely want to deaden the door, and eliminate any holes on the mounting plane. I've used sheets of mlv with butyl for such.

Well your limited to 6.5" - 7" OD for a midbass speaker, and there are plenty of speakers that fit those dimensions, and offer just about as much midbass as your gonna get with that Sd, and happen to perform in a 2-way. I don't really see the "2-way and decent midbass or 3-way with midbass with authority" argument being entirely valid, but whatever floats your boat.

[Quentin Jarrell 671]

Highs are just like subs. Some are designed for IB, some sealed, some ported, ect. Some are gonna work better on axis, some off axis.

You already stated that you know where you want/need them to go. So you'll have to figure out what will work in that location in conjunction of what type of enclosure you'll use.

[stiffler style 9]

Yes, the speakers will be mounted to the mdf which will be mounted to the sheet metal. I'm definitely going to deaden the door as well as use plexiglass and silicon or liquid nails to cover the holes and cover the plexiglass with deadener. I've been in contact with sds a few weeks ago but he never responded so I will have to get on that again.

I see your point about not needing a 3-way when a 2-way will work and be much more simple and I have seen some builds where people use a 6.5" and a 3" with no tweeter successfully (with the same goals as mine). It seems logical that I could do a 2-way and if need be add a tweeter later on. Most of the builds I've seen use the peerless sls 6.5" and pair it with the fountek (sp?) fr88 or fr89 3". If their goals are similar and their install is similar should I use that as a reference and try to replicate that since it worked for them?

The sls has a low qts. That's suited for a sealed box correct? Which would correlate with why people saw better midbass after sealing the baffles instead of ib in the door.

Just my thoughts for my now.

[ssh 924]

I know the sls drivers are super popular, but honestly I haven't done any memorable research on them, so I won't suggest what's best for them. Your qts and sealed baffle thought process is correctomundo.

When you speak of creating a sealed enclosure for the drivers, would that be the sheet metal panels sealed into a pseudo enclosure? Or something more along the lines of an actual enclosure like what Edouble did with fiberglass? If you do something similar to the latter then that would be epic for midbass.

[stiffler style 9]

I really wanted to try to exodus anarchy's but they are too deep and I don't know if they are available anymore. The next widely used dedicated midbass was the sls so that's what I've been looking at lately.

To be honest, I don't know yet. I can fit 2 mdf rings between the door panel and the sheet metal. I will cut a hole in the sheet metal inside the mdf ring opening then attach another mdf ring on the backside. There is a rather large slot hole in the middle of the door that I can fit the last ring through. If plexiglass will be sufficient I will use that to seal off the back of the "enclosure" however I would like the challenge of doing a more complex enclosure.

Do you have a link to the fiberglass enclosure you mentioned? I've got experience will building carbon fiber parts for my dads racecar so I think I could make something out of fiberglass. I just need some ideas on how to go about it.

[///M5 2,833]

Running a 2 way with a full ranger (ie, no tweet) REQUIRES that the full ranger is ON AXIS. I screamed on purpose. No way, no how will it work in your door. Conveniently a large format tweeter will fit in your door where your mid was.

Considering you are limited to a 7" driver and do not have great installation locations for a 3 way I would definitely just do a 2 way and use a large format tweet. Way simpler and pretty much guarantee it'll sound better as well. The exception will be if you decide you can modify things and fit a larger midbass and move the mids to a different location.

[stiffler style 9]

M5, What should I look for in a large format tweeter? Or is it going to really be trial and error?

What do you think about using plexiglass to seal everything off, including the baffles? I really want to get the install right.

[///M5 2,833]

Not sure what you mean by seal. If it is to separate the front wave and the back wave then ok. Probably rather expensive for that goal. Sealing is one thing, next step is mass. The more mass it has the more effective of a blocker it will be.

As for your tweeter question, I'd personally go and listen to a bunch of things. At least to help narrow down the material choice. After that, if you are going to mount them in your doors you need to look for one with a good looking frequency response for the off axis angle they will be playing at. Normally off axis response is better in smaller diaphragm tweeters, but then you lose the capability to play low. You get to balance that compromise. Of course, mounting location is what is the way that swings the compromise into more clarity.

[stiffler style 9]

I mean using plexiglass to turn the baffle into a sealed enclosure which would help a low qts midbass driver. Wouldn't deadening the inner door metal be what separates the front and back wave? Also, I've read and seen some graphs of using a sealed enclosure to counter the off-axis response of a tweeter/fullrange. I can always experiment.

I have plenty of mass. This duct seal is hefty stuff and I have plenty of it. That with some mlv and I think I'll be good.

I know I don't like metal or harsh tweeters. I will have to do what you said and narrow it down a bit more.

[///M5 2,833]

If you don't have depth to use the anarchy i seriously doubt you have enough volume for a sealed enclosure.

[stiffler style 9]

The sls's I have been looking at are 83mm deep. That would leave me enough room to seal off the back of the baffle with something thin. Hence, the plexiglass. I just don't know if the plexiglass is a good material choice.

I'll have to measure it and see what volume I would be at with my idea. (I'll probably be at .1 cubic feet or right above that.) If .1 cubic feet is roughly correct, would it be a idea to try an aperiodic vent of some sort? Like the one on madisound.

Edited October 19, 2012 by stiffler style

[///M5 2,833]

The sls's I have been looking at are 83mm deep. That would leave me enough room to seal off the back of the baffle with something thin. Hence, the plexiglass. I just don't know if the plexiglass is a good material choice.

I'll have to measure it and see what volume I would be at with my idea. (I'll probably be at .1 cubic feet or right above that.) If .1 cubic feet is roughly correct, would it be a idea to try an aperiodic vent of some sort? Like the one on madisound.

WAY too small for the SLS. WAY. I guarantee you do not have room to seal your mid.

[edouble101 314]

I would not use an ap mat in a door for a few reasons. For one moisture will ruin the membrane material.

Not too sure why you a stuck on low qts for midbass. Higher qts is better suited to achieve a good midbass response. Plus ib maybe your best option.

Plexi is not the optimum choice for enclosure materials. Especially the thin stuff you would be using. Hard plastic cutting board material would be better. Although like I stated ib is probably best for you.

IMO for your install a two way would be best. Can you fabricate a small full range driver in your sail panel, dash or a-pillar?

[stiffler style 9]

The reason for low qts is that I haven't found really any decent midbasses with higher qts (.5 or so) yet. Most all midbass drivers I have looked at and people have used with success (similar goals/application) are lower qts (.3). I've got learning to do when it comes to looking and comparing raw drivers, but this is my start.

So ib, or hard plastic cutting board if I can find a way to get a decent volume size to make it worth sealing the baffles?

I've decided that I should do 2-way after what m5 and stef have told me. I want to keep the stock appearance as much as possible.

What speakers would you recommend I consider or research for my application?

I have my subs low passed at 90hz right now and am happy with that so I don't need a midbass to play much lower than that, if at all.

Edited October 19, 2012 by stiffler style

[///M5 2,833]

Depends on where u mount the tweet and what you have for processing

[stiffler style 9]

A large format tweeter would have to be mounted in the door. That spot would obviously be off-axis, however, I could fabricate baffles/pods for the tweeters if that is of any help to combat the off-axis response drop off. My headunit has a five-band parametric eq.

Before driver displacement, I can get over 5 liters of volume in the midbass baffle. Still way too small?

I could try aiming the tweeter/midrange/whatever speaker using mdf cut at a slant as well.

Edited October 20, 2012 by stiffler style

[edouble101 314]

What are your goals for the soundstage? Do you want good imaging? Are you concerned about stage height?

Stage height and imaging are important to me. If I was doing a two-way I would use a fullrange driver and midbass driver. The midbass driver would be in the door and the fullrange driver would be in the a-pillar or sail panel. I prefer a-pillar because the driver is not getting jarred every time I open and close the door. I would start with low-pass the midbass fairly high, about 1.2-1.5khz and high-pass the widbander about 500-800hz. This little bit of overlap and a relatively high low-pass on the midbass will create a nice wide soundtsage that will be at dash level or higher. A two-way with a tweeter and midrange/midbass would be a different install. The tweeter and midrange/midbass would both be in the kicks. I would probably use a large format tweeter in this scenario.

If you are not critically concerned about the soundstage then use a small format tweeter and a midrange/midbass driver. A large format tweeter mounted in the door or a-pillar doesnt make much sense. Large format tweeters are mostly over four inches in diameter. Hell just use a 3" widbander then (it is smaller and can be crossed lower). Mount the small format tweeter as high as you can get it and midrange/midbass driver mounted ib in the door. Trying to build an enclosure in the door without modify the door card maybe difficult. I can not think of any reason why that would be beneficial either unless you built a ported enclosure. I can tell you that you will get decent results with this simple two-way. The soundstage will not be very high, about the height of the middle of your steering wheel, but with a little processing it will sound good. I would look for a midrange/midbass driver that has a good fr up to 5k. Since you are low-passing your sub relatively high you can choose a driver that has a higher fs and qts which should have decent sensitivity too. Look for a tweeter that can be crossed 4-5/12db comfortably. An example of two drivers that I think would work well in this instance is the Hi-Vi L6-4R and LPG 25NFA. You can purchase numerous mounting pieces for the 25NFA that should make mounting and aiming easier.

[///M5 2,833]

While I agree we need to hear the OP's goals. Realizing how far off axis he is, it's time to shop for tweeters. Nothing else can really be decided until that occurs. If he isn't willing to modify the vehicle to not look stock a FR & Midbass option will not work for him. Pretty much bet for processing it couldn't be handled either with what he has. Start digging for tweeters and let us know what you are leaning towards or choosing between.

If you are not critically concerned about the soundstage then use a small format tweeter and a midrange/midbass driver. A large format tweeter mounted in the door or a-pillar doesnt make much sense.

If the location is the same either way and it fits it makes a TON of sense. Not many small format drivers worth a shit, tons of choices when you remove that constraint.

Stage height and imaging are important to me. If I was doing a two-way I would use a fullrange driver and midbass driver. The midbass driver would be in the door and the fullrange driver would be in the a-pillar or sail panel. easier.

Not going to help the OP who wants a "stock" appearance. Recommending to use a full ranger off axis is a mess.

I would start with low-pass the midbass fairly high, about 1.2-1.5khz and high-pass the widbander about 500-800hz. This little bit of overlap and a relatively high low-pass on the midbass will create a nice wide soundtsage that will be at dash level or higher.

As for your overlap "requirement" I've seen MANY cases where the opposite is true. Your desires also complete defeat the purpose of using a full ranger. If you can't get it to play most of the audio spectrum then you are better off with a tweeter in a two way.

[stiffler style 9]

I'll try to cover both comments in this post. First off, thanks for the help thus far. I definitely underestimated the amount of thought that is needed to make this work correctly.

I'm not overly concerned with stage height or good imaging. I want midbass with authority (or as much authority as I can achieve). I have noticed that I do like the silk tweeters I have heard before. I also notice that I like the sound much better when the highs (I don't know what specific frequencies but mainly what it playing through a tweeter in a typical 3 way setup) are toned down from the rest of the music. Not necessarily bass heavy where you only hear the sub, but I feel like I can't stand to listen to screeching tweeters for more than 30 seconds. I did get the chance to listen to some midbasses with an aluminum or metal cone that I really liked the snappy midbass they gave. I haven't got the slightest clue as to what brand or anything about them other than I noticed the cone material and liked the sound.

As far as processing, I'm not ready to take the plunge and shell out major money ($250>) for a processor. Is there a processor that is cheaper but would still help my situation?

"Trying to build an enclosure in the door without modify the door card maybe difficult. I can not think of any reason why that would be beneficial either unless you built a ported enclosure." I'm not modifying the door card at all. I can modify the door with baffles and cutting metal and such. I've made some mock up baffles and have modified them to allow the door card to fit properly. I mentioned aperiodic vent because I could do something like make my baffle then lay a square (2-3" x 2-3"?) of fiberglass as a form of an aperiodic vent and add or remove layers depending on how it sounds. I've been reading about how this can be done to a smaller than ideal box to achieve a response similar to a ported box. It seems a bit complicated for me as I don't have a full grasp of what to do and I doubt I could make it work correctly. Maybe you have knowledge on what I rambling about? sorry I sound stuck on making the baffles sealed.

I have been looking through madisound and parts-express at tweeters. I also mentioned that I could cut the mdf at a slope to help "aim" the tweeters (assuming they are in the door which is probable).

So knowing that I like the top end toned down and less harsh, are your recommendations still the same? Tweeter and midbass, two-way? Large or small format tweeter?

*Also, the stock tweeter is pretty small (like maybe an inch at most) and in the A-Pillar directly on axis.

Edited October 21, 2012 by stiffler style

[edouble101 314]

If this is overwhelming for you or if you do not have the money and installation skills to use an active setup then buy a good component set. You can always adjust your low-pass setting for your subwoofer higher.