Any experience on mating higher efficiency woofers to hlcd's?

[cubdenno 0]

I despise "Which brand/driver" type threads but unfortunately, in helping my son, I am hitting just that.

2004 Pontiac Grand Am. Waiting on HO alternator. 3 Die Hard Platinum batteries. 2 runs of 1/0 positive 1 run 2/0 as a negative connected to frame in 3 spots

System layout:

2 ea. JBL GTO14001 amplifiers each driving a DD9012 sub in a ported enclosure. Each sub in it's own chamber each sub wired to achieve a 4 ohms DCR at the amp.

JBL GTO1004 4 channel amp 100X4

Image dynamics wave guides acoustic open cell foam inserted in the throat to cut down on some of the screechiness. Really helped! Crossfire compression drivers and the crossfire passive/frequency shaping crossover

There is not a lot of space in the door card. I believe a 6" can fit. We are willing to modify the card and install a bigger driver.

Now I am looking at this a couple of ways.

Passive: 3 aura each door 6" 8 ohm drivers on clearance from PE. Multiple motors to reduce power compression and increase efficiency. They are great sounding drivers and Cheap.order 12 of themfor just over a hundred bucks and have full set of spares.

2 lower end 8-10" PA drivers. 1 per door. Have seen great results with the PYLE (GASP!I know! but they performed well in the door of a Tahoe keeping up with 4 12" subs on 3kw) PA drivers.

2 high end B&C drivers. 1 per door Now for my money, I would go this route as both the 8 and 10 are proven designs, low distortion nice Xmax for a PA driver and great efficiency to help keep up with the HLCD.

a set of 6X9's in the rear parcel tray to help augment the midbass for a better sub to mid transition. using the GTO1`004 bandpass settings on the rear channels of the amp or an off board processor.

Active: Basically the same driver choices except for the 6X9's

In his Buick (previous car), he was metering upper 140's which for his music tastes and goals was very nice. But unfortunately, he was running small car branded drivers. Midbass/sub transition was a joke. Subs just flat out overwhelmed everything and tended to sound muddy due to no midbass at any volume past 1/3.

So enter the new to him car. he is actually listening to me as my car with low 140's capabilities sounds great all the way up except for break up at the highest volume but still for what I am rocking not terrible.

I am not concerned about beaming so running a larger driver with it's increased efficiency is more appealing. I am concerned about making sure the woofer would e OK in a car door as far as airspace.

Sure we are looking at leaky sealed with crossover points being ~80-125 active (12/oct) to whatever the passive does to running full active on the set up and having 24 db/slopes and EQ available.

I am just afraid the active for his goals are overkill and the cheaper though more speakers passive may suit his listening tastes and goals for a better bang to the buck approach. And remember, we can compensate some midbass by upping the crossover/fooling with the slopes of the subs. Not worried about bass up front entirely especially at high volume. So any advice/experience on this would be welcome.

Regards.

Edited February 8, 2013 by cubdenno

[Impious 1,476]

Personally I would ditch the idea of passive and the rear midbass drivers. The rear 6x9's will hurt more than help IMO and the added flexibility of active will give you more flexibility in choosing drivers and he'll already be set up in a manor that he can improve the system/speakers as money or taste allows.

While I like the idea you are going for with the multiple 6" driver approach, I don't think it's the best option. While they are good speakers for what they are, the Aura's have small coils with no real cooling....I wouldn't be surprised if a decently well designed 8"-10" pro audio driver ended up have less compression, higher true power handling and higher efficiency.

What is your budget? If you run active what processor do you plan to use?

A note on the B&C drivers....the rated Xmax is peak-to-peak, not one-way. So divide their Xmax numbers in half.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

What's your low point on the horns?

Personally, on my two horn installs, I preferred to cross them as low as possible and run a dedicated midbass and throw a lot of power at it. I don't like the "pro audio" type drivers for anything other than pro audio. Their efficiency is nice, but due to the small space requirements of a car, their appeal is quickly lost.

[///M5 2,833]

With space for 3 6's in each door could you fit a ported enclosure for the pro audio mid? Usually a ported 8 will outperform the 10 in any other style. If not, and you have to run IB I'm with Mr. Ferrari and would look at a midbass instead. No matter what you pick you are going to be underlapping somewhere. Each compromise is up to you, but as always I'd try not to on the enclosure (or lack of) department.

Curious what processing you've thrown at the horns as well. Taming the screechiness I'd try electrically first...

[cubdenno 0]

What's your low point on the horns?

Personally, on my two horn installs, I preferred to cross them as low as possible and run a dedicated midbass and throw a lot of power at it. I don't like the "pro audio" type drivers for anything other than pro audio. Their efficiency is nice, but due to the small space requirements of a car, their appeal is quickly lost.

I believe the passive is 1200-1500 hertz. I would have to research it based on part number and see if there is any google retrievable info

Well when done right, the Pro audio set up in my opinion is impossible to beat with the dynamics available, the lack of compression and distortion. Obviously like you mentioned, they come with their own set of issues in the planning and install.

Regular drivers are generally fine if your reference listening level is 85-95 db (which is loud). The problem is, when you go louder, your average speaker (even high end) tend to fall apart acoustically and mechanically if pushed long. Trying to keep up with kilowatts on subs is hard to do and sound good. It's why I was looking at this in a couple of different ways. Multi driver and pro audio.

[///M5 2,833]

I believe the passive is 1200-1500 hertz.

You aren't serious are you? Passive HLCD's? Need to stop that right away unless you've custom built them with measurements. Which passives are you using?

[cubdenno 0]

Personally I would ditch the idea of passive and the rear midbass drivers. The rear 6x9's will hurt more than help IMO and the added flexibility of active will give you more flexibility in choosing drivers and he'll already be set up in a manor that he can improve the system/speakers as money or taste allows.

While I like the idea you are going for with the multiple 6" driver approach, I don't think it's the best option. While they are good speakers for what they are, the Aura's have small coils with no real cooling....I wouldn't be surprised if a decently well designed 8"-10" pro audio driver ended up have less compression, higher true power handling and higher efficiency.

What is your budget? If you run active what processor do you plan to use?

A note on the B&C drivers....the rated Xmax is peak-to-peak, not one-way. So divide their Xmax numbers in half.

Absolutely agree with the performance of the Proaudio driver vs. the aura option or really any 6" option that is not some super beefy 6" quasi sub which brings all sorts of issues over 400 hertz generally.

Based on the power (less than 150 watts per channel) pretty sure the Aura's would be fine.

Budget? that is a hilarious question!! He is a 20 year old who works a 17 an hour job and goes to school and he lives on his own. I have a crap ton of stuff I donate to his cause, but I make him pick up the lions share. After the alternator gets bought (I thought it was already), The best guess would be 500 or so.

As for procs, I run the H701 and love it. I would probably try to get him to run a MiniDSP just for the set it and forget it capability. Then he cant screw with it.

[cubdenno 0]

With space for 3 6's in each door could you fit a ported enclosure for the pro audio mid? Usually a ported 8 will outperform the 10 in any other style. If not, and you have to run IB I'm with Mr. Ferrari and would look at a midbass instead. No matter what you pick you are going to be underlapping somewhere. Each compromise is up to you, but as always I'd try not to on the enclosure (or lack of) department.

Curious what processing you've thrown at the horns as well. Taming the screechiness I'd try electrically first...

Had a big post typed up and then got a web error and have to now retype....

I like the idea of the ported Pro audio driver. Problem is, the complexity of glassing an enclosure to the door is beyond my skill set currently and aesthetically impossible. The space limitations external to the door would make me have to short the drivers air space. Fitting a baffle that seals to the door and uses it's airspace albeit leaky sealed is about the only way we can do this. The baffle that could house the 3 Aura drivers could be offset out enough to handle the drivers with minimum door modification to the sheet metal. I would love to get the benefits of porting a driver in the door. Reduced excursion, better midbass output etc... But I can't do it. Plain and simple.

I tried the horns hooked up in my car. did a 1200 hertz crossover @ 24db/oct

listening with the foam and without, with the foam definitely helped and sounded better. The loss in output should help in level matching.

[cubdenno 0]

Corporate internet is not being cooperative.

As for the passive on the horns, I understand your reaction but they will probably have to do unless I convince him to run active. That in itself will be up to his budget. The nice thing is, he can use them untill he gets the cash to run active if he first goes the passive route. Besides... The label on the passive says it has signal shaping!!! Signal shaping man! obviously that correctly implies perfect acoustical performance in any install. Even if we install it in a trunk. Signal shaping is the most bestest!!

Hell he may actually enter an SQ contest subs and horn with signal shaping!

Hopefully you see the humor in what I just posted.

[///M5 2,833]

miniDSP IMO would be a great, cheap solution and well worth the portion of the budget it would eat.

For $500 you should be able to buy a miniDSP, a couple pairs of used Adire Extremis or the like, and then sell the JBL and get a less well known amp you can use for the mids and a cheap little 50wx2 for the tweets. I may stretch you a bit beyond the budget, but it would put everything in good shape.

[lithium 358]

cheap amp idea. i got a couple of these amps for my bro's install and one for my own. http://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Acoustics-USX-2080-/170984128192?pt=Car_Amplifiers&hash=item27cf72bec0

[cubdenno 0]

Thing is, it will be hard to surpass the 115 bucks I spent on the JBL 4 channel. Brand new/not refurb.

For output going down to 80-100 hertz that I know will work, I would just get Dayton RS225's.

Cross at 80 hertz and call it a day. This option means that I have to turn the horns WAY down. The Daytons play to a 1000 with no issues and if you can take some cone break up 1.5. Cost is good as well. ~60 bucks with 6mm of linear stroke 1 way if memory serves. 8 ohm DCR is about perfect for the power rating

The B&C 8 that rocks the ferrite based magnet... PS something I believe is right at 100 per driver and have heard this used in a vette door. 94 ish sensitivity even at 100 hertz based on frequency response graph whould make it easier to mate to the horn.

I talked to my son at lunch and further discussed the plan going forward. And while he likes the idea of running passive up front and by 9's in the back as he has the speakers except for the front woofers, he understands my points.

He got to audition a friends system and had a good laugh. 2 fifteens, band pass enclosure 2kw on subs and head unit powering the factory speakers. Absolutely ridiculous.

So with those types of experiences, he does not want that. Nor does he want to run bullet tweeters. He wants something that is listenable but that can keep up.

So I am pushing for active.

Now the

[swift 501]

I didnt read the entire thread thoroughly but you NEED to be able to adjust hlcd's as much as possible, not only with EQ but with level and gain control on the fly from my experience with them. The best thing I could have done was go with hlcd's but they do need tweaking to find what you want but once thats done its really nice. Mine are crossed at 1.25k and I wish I could go alittle lower. I am running active

I dont have tweeters in my truck right now and they keep up just fine with my subs, (which isnt easy). Loud claps will make you flinch.

Listen to these guys, I did

Edited February 11, 2013 by swift

[cubdenno 0]

I didnt read the entire thread thoroughly but you NEED to be able to adjust hlcd's as much as possible, not only with EQ but with level and gain control on the fly from my experience with them. The best thing I could have done was go with hlcd's but they do need tweaking to find what you want but once thats done its really nice. Mine are crossed at 1.25k and I wish I could go alittle lower. I am running active I dont have tweeters in my truck right now and they keep up just fine with my subs, (which isnt easy). Loud claps will make you flinch. Listen to these guys, I did

LOL! I bet snare drums sound as close to real as can be!!

Give a look at putting acoustic foam in the throat.

Go ahead and laugh but get your hands on it and give it a listen

When i want to shock and awe a person who is not a teenager I play Toto's Hold the line off their great hits CD. Track one.

When the snare hits it makes them flinch every time at high volume.

That is what the boy is looking for. And since I preach lotsa midbass for your subs to sound good, he is looking for that as well.

Frankly you guys are telling me what I surmised already. He is going to have to run active to do this right!

Gee thanks a lot!!

[ssh 924]

I didnt read the entire thread thoroughly but you NEED to be able to adjust hlcd's as much as possible, not only with EQ but with level and gain control on the fly from my experience with them. The best thing I could have done was go with hlcd's but they do need tweaking to find what you want but once thats done its really nice. Mine are crossed at 1.25k and I wish I could go alittle lower. I am running active

I dont have tweeters in my truck right now and they keep up just fine with my subs, (which isnt easy). Loud claps will make you flinch.

Listen to these guys, I did

Minidsp covers all that.

[///M5 2,833]

Thing is, it will be hard to surpass the 115 bucks I spent on the JBL 4 channel. Brand new/not refurb.

For output going down to 80-100 hertz that I know will work, I would just get Dayton RS225's.

Cross at 80 hertz and call it a day. This option means that I have to turn the horns WAY down. The Daytons play to a 1000 with no issues and if you can take some cone break up 1.5. Cost is good as well. ~60 bucks with 6mm of linear stroke 1 way if memory serves. 8 ohm DCR is about perfect for the power rating

You have two problems in your sub horn range:

1) Not enough cone area, ie midbass range will suffer

2) Not enough power.

IMO, the Daytons don't help with either. They aren't particularly good midbasses and not unlike the horns if you want them to play into the midrange you are going to need some serious eq. I was going to do a 2 way with a set and after playing with them sold them off for those exact reasons. Add to that the lack of an enclosure to beef them up and you aren't helping yourself. In that aspect a pro audio driver in a poor mounting scenario may actually be of benefit.

No matter what you are going to have compromises. I'd pick what I think those should be first. Then start driver shopping. What I compromised with my solution was money. You may choose differently.

[cubdenno 0]

Thing is, it will be hard to surpass the 115 bucks I spent on the JBL 4 channel. Brand new/not refurb.

For output going down to 80-100 hertz that I know will work, I would just get Dayton RS225's.

Cross at 80 hertz and call it a day. This option means that I have to turn the horns WAY down. The Daytons play to a 1000 with no issues and if you can take some cone break up 1.5. Cost is good as well. ~60 bucks with 6mm of linear stroke 1 way if memory serves. 8 ohm DCR is about perfect for the power rating

You have two problems in your sub horn range:

1) Not enough cone area, ie midbass range will suffer

2) Not enough power.

IMO, the Daytons don't help with either. They aren't particularly good midbasses and not unlike the horns if you want them to play into the midrange you are going to need some serious eq. I was going to do a 2 way with a set and after playing with them sold them off for those exact reasons. Add to that the lack of an enclosure to beef them up and you aren't helping yourself. In that aspect a pro audio driver in a poor mounting scenario may actually be of benefit.

No matter what you are going to have compromises. I'd pick what I think those should be first. Then start driver shopping. What I compromised with my solution was money. You may choose differently.

Totally agree on the cone area observation. Was talking to an aquaintance based on a forum post regarding a 10" peerless driver. Magnet is reversed in mounting. Works well in a .33cubic foot box and performs very well for midbass duties. Price is right as well. Problem is, that requires a bit more power and would in most likely circumstances, a midrange to fill in between the HLCD's and the dedicated midbass drivers.

The Daytons in my usage and tastes are not that bad. I used them in a two way when i wanted rear fill in my set up. I crossed them @1.1k and my tweeters at 2k high pass was 24db/oct and the woofer lowpass was 12 db/oct.

Was happy with that set up stayed clear and kept up as well as a single 8" on a couple of hundred watts could be expected. They handled power very well. In fact seemed to sound better with more power. And let's face it, I don't do critical listening on my set up. and my son won't either. Sadly though you are exactly right with not being ale to keep up with the subs. With his budget and vehicle tied with his musical tastes and sub/power set up, I am not sure it CAN be done. We will just have to try to get as close as possible.

Again, thanks all for the input/observations. Keep em coming. I will be talking with the boy tonight for sure. We are supposed to be looking at how to most compactly mount the amplifiers while still giving access to adjust the settings.

[///M5 2,833]

The problem with the dual Dayton's and that amp is you are defeating the whole reason of having a horn.  Mating two 89dB drivers together yields 92dB and then when they can take (and you have) limited power having a tweeter that is a couple orders of magnitude louder is a strange decision.

 

If you are going to compromise and not buy an amp, I'd compromise on the frequency range of the woofer....or take the horns out altogether and go a different route.

 

I do find it interesting that you reference the Peerless XLS shallow.  It'll have the same power requirements as the Extremis but a more limited range and is really expensive at nearly $200 each.  There are other subs that will reach higher in the frequency range than it as well and do a better job mating....but again you are short on power.

 

You have to compromise.  You just need to decide where.  Until then you are hard to help.  If you want a serious match it'll take two ported pro audio 8's per side.  I know you don't have that much space, that much power, or that budget but that would be the easiest way to fill things out.  Everything else is less than that.  You pick where.  I will add the cheapest midbass you can buy kills your staging.  Just set the sub to play up much higher.  Getting that load off the "mids" will seriously help reduce your compromise.  Noting his listening desires it also seems like a no brainer to me.  The question then becomes the gap and the dollars.

[cubdenno 0]

M5,

 

you and your logic are a pain!!

 

Of course you are right though. I was hoping since a lot of the hlcd kits that you could get in the past had a car mid (6 1/2 or 8) and were not pro audio efficiency it would be a fairly easy substitution to do a decent woofer/woofers that could play fairly well in the 80-1000 range. I am seeing now that based on your experience it will not be that easy. Especially basing this on power available and my son's beer budget. AND it is becoming way more apparent that a processor is greatly needed to help match the hlcd's into the system.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

I can think of several that will do the job. Question is, what is the budget?