Jump to content
Tony Vang

smd dd1

Recommended Posts

The knob u gotta set with the amp gain when u turn the knob down the bass goes down when u turn the knob up the bsss goes up

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jesus Fucking Christ.  English.  Type it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can hear just fine. My methods make sense if you put 2 and 2 together. The levels music is recorded at varies greatly. With my smaller setups, it was much easier to detect audible distortion. But I'm not running "smaller" setups anymore. 

 

Also everyone is leading off track, this has to do with gain setting, nothing else. We're not talking about other components failing. Just one part. Stop weaseling the conversation in direction that benefit your argument, which is not the actual topic itself. So many of these topics get skewed because some of you try soooooo damn hard to be 100% right. When you're not. There's other methods. Except that and move on. Way too much closed minded thinking. If you constantly shun away other ideas, you'll never better yourself. 

 

 

There's no point in reading all the replies honestly. Over half are bitching about Steve. I swear it's like talking with democrats in here. Everything turns into ripping someone else down and basically calling their ideas bull shit. 

 

 

And why on earth would Steve accept a challenge from you? Cause you're "mr SSA tech team"  You're like a pringles can of bull shit.

Was on a mobile device earlier. Can respond to this a bit better now.

Let us see what is closed minded here. The guy who defends something that some marketing propaganda promotes or in this case me.

Some history for you.

In 1993, I took a 2 week independent study in college. Working as a sound engineer at the time I wanted a tuner that not only investigated tune but distortion and profiling of instruments and microphones. Steps in programming were. Write a tuner to determine both amplitude and frequency. Calculate the distortion. Unlike the POS that Steve sells, my code actually would measure all harmonics (limited by bandwidth of the acquisition card nyquist of course). It could do this on any arbitrary input as well, not some fixed frequency. Program was freely distributed on the web for years. I tried to discuss the algorithm with Steve, he grabbed his "design engineer" and neither could answer rudimentary questions. That is why he ran from here. Knew that they had overlooked a ton and didn't want it to be exposed where edits weren't in his power.

In my lab, I have a suite of Bruel & Kjaer acoustic analyzing equipment that exceeds $100k in value. Also have a $60k Nicollet oscilloscope which measures harmonics out beyond 1GHz. Add to that a 3D scanning laser vibrometer that makes the Klippel look like a home brewed piece of shit.

I could use ANY of it for setting gains. What do I use? My ear.

Sounds pretty closed minded doesn't it?

 

 

All that being said. Would you still set your gains by ear when running, lets say 7-8k of real world power, on 4 15s, 6 12s etc, in a none walled vehicle. I'm not arguing for the point of the DD-1, just the simple fact that outside harmonics will interfere with using your ear. A well trained ear is a great weapon to have, but it only goes so far. Also, these guys are looking for help over the internet, so describing what to listen for is difficult considering you can't actually have them sample what you're saying. By no means am I saying the DD-1 is a end game piece of gear. Every time I've seen or heard of someone breaking a piece of equipment after using the DD-1, it's because they didn't use it properly. Usually using -10 to -15db tones. Which is ludicrous. When it comes to setting my filters, it boils down to ear only, unless I'm gain matching multiple amps. Then it becomes a lengthy process.

 

While I can appreciate what you've done and the equipment you've used, you need to understand, not everyone has your ears. I use my LC-1 a lot to adjust for the level levels at which the program was recorded. Closed minded thinking wasn't directed at you only. If I use multiple methods, how am I being closed minded? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jesus Fucking Christ.  English.  Type it.

Literally LOL'd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kyle - huge difference between using a method and understanding it. To me that is where the learning starts, not ends.

All that being said. Would you still set your gains by ear when running, lets say 7-8k of real world power, on 4 15s, 6 12s etc, in a none walled vehicle.

You left off one rather major detail in your question and that is always the first thing to think about. Without defining the goal it is pointless. Of course, I'd say running 8k of power is pointless as well (unless competing). If it is truly to listen to then of course I'll set it by ear. I think you have another misconception here. Gain setting is only one little teeny technical part of the equation. The other is using the volume knob during every song. For this you HAVE to use your ear. If you set your system gains conservatively such that you can use the volume knob without thinking then you might as well cut your power by 1/4th since you are doing at least that in your conservative settings. As for the goal, if it is to compete and eek out every last tenth of a dB the rules change completely, but the DD-1 is still pointless in that regard. You'd be significantly louder without it. You can quote Steve on that statement even.

While I can appreciate what you've done and the equipment you've used, you need to understand, not everyone has your ears.

Obviously not. I've had ear training since I was 5. Play classical guitar, piano, upright bass, elec bass, sing, electric guitar, plectrum guitar, work in Acoustic consulting and pretty much focus my life around improving my ears every day. Taking just a TEENY bit of motivation to improve your listening is the best possible thing you can do for music. It will also help you more with your stereo than ANYTHING else you can do. Encouraging this behavior should be done every step of the way. Exactly why teaching your ear to hear strain in a system and then utilizing this in EVERY song you listen to is by far the best idea.

Let's make this simple. I'll ask the same question I asked Steve. If someone can answer in a way that actually makes sense I'll gladly apologize and state I was wrong. Question is to think of a use for the DD-1 that actually is a benefit. The only one I can think of is padding Steve's pocketbook. That one or thoughts like it don't count.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So just to play the devils advocate.
The
DD-1 isn't usefull because after setting the gain the conditions will
never be the same again and because you don't listen to 40Hz tones?
Also because you'll have to reset the gain after each song?
Isn't that exactly the same thing what you would do if you set it by ear?

What is the point of having a gain knob on a amplifier?
What is it designed to do?
(Can someone answer that question? Sean, Impious, Tirefryr,Shizzon,... ?)

And
if you use your ear why is this a problem? Never said using an ear was
a static situation. Exactly the reason why you MUST use it.

Gain knob on an amplifier is to adjust for the input level from the source.

Reaction to the red first:
Exactly it's to adjust the input level from the source, doesn't it seem useful to adjust it with a instrument? (obviously you make sure you still have some headroom on the source so you can adjust it up or down according to the song)

With the ear it will take quite a while for most, while with this instrument it should only take a few minutes. (which could be helpful for someone who does a lot of installs)
Obviously you shouldn't solely rely on it, but if you set it with the DD-1 it should always be a safe setting unless the amp can provide too much power. (please add a other reason why it wouldn't be a safe setting)

This seems to be a use of benefit:
Wouldn't it be easier for a shop owner to claim it wasn't his fault when he used a DD-1, as long the person doesn't go over the recommended volume/settings nothing wrong will be able to happen.(again, I could be forgetting a reason why it couldn't be a safe setting)



So just to play the devils advocate.
The DD-1 isn't usefull because after setting the gain the conditions will never be the same again and because you don't listen to 40Hz tones?
Also because you'll have to reset the gain after each song?
Isn't that exactly the same thing what you would do if you set it by ear?

What is the point of having a gain knob on a amplifier?
What is it designed to do?
(Can someone answer that question? Sean, Impious, Tirefryr,Shizzon,... ?)


I already did. In this post.

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/topic/59562-smd-dd1/?p=1002165

That post doesn't say anything about how setting the gain by ear will help you for it to work on all the songs you listen to.
It also doesn't state what the gain is designed to do, which is adjusting input level from the source as Sean(///M5) said.

So if the gain is made to adjust the input level from the source, that means it's made to be set once and forget about it, right? (which is exactly what you would do by setting it by ear or by DD-1)
Obviously there is no perfect gain setting for music, is what I can see in your post. (which I agree)
The DD-1 isn't going to give you the perfect gain setting, but it should be able to give you a safe setting, unless you didn't match the amp to the subwoofer properly.
As you said yourself, setting the gain by ear is going to be timeconsuming (or atleast more timeconsuming) then setting it with a simple instrument like the DD-1.
Obviously you give yourself some play at the headunit so you can control the music and adjust if it's too quiet .(if you set it in a safe way with the DD-1, you should never turn the volume down because it's too loud.)

By the way, I set my gains by ear and won't buy a DD-1 Edited by kirill007

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is safe and why do you think it is desirable?

The easiest way to be safe is to buy an amp that doesn't have the capability of blowing a sub. Of course, dumbing down an amp that does by setting it safe nets you the same results and overall output.

So, you want to buy an 8k amp and make it a 1k amp? That'd be safe.

As for your comment on it taking longer with your ear, that is the biggest hock of shit I've ever heard. It is instantaneous. Hell you should be doing it for every song and even for parts of songs if you are pushing the limit. The DD-1 takes WAY longer. Training your ear can take some time, but that has side benefits and is desirable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still don't get how some don't understand there is no safe setting under all circumstances when you have enough power, just as M5 said.

 

It is a waste of time to set your gain to a "safe" threshold.  You can always break that threshold unless you have some type of active compression at the end of the signal chain...  The DD-1 is not that type of compression, nor is anything else you commonly see...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ZED Ra has a compressor, I am constantly adjusting it depending on the music/track.  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Which is normal for all music. Every track is different.adhd.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ZED Ra has a compressor, I am constantly adjusting it depending on the music/track.  smile.png

Those are sex. Saving my pennies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is safe and why do you think it is desirable?

The easiest way to be safe is to buy an amp that doesn't have the capability of blowing a sub. Of course, dumbing down an amp that does by setting it safe nets you the same results and overall output.

So, you want to buy an 8k amp and make it a 1k amp? That'd be safe.

As for your comment on it taking longer with your ear, that is the biggest hock of shit I've ever heard. It is instantaneous. Hell you should be doing it for every song and even for parts of songs if you are pushing the limit. The DD-1 takes WAY longer. Training your ear can take some time, but that has side benefits and is desirable.

I agree on it all, although I wouldn't trust most people to tell them they have to use their ears.

I've seen too many people turn up the gain way too high in combination with maxing out the headunit and they couldn't hear anything wrong with that.

I think that's the kind of people that should use it.

You can't even talk sense into them by saying they should use a smaller amp if they don't want to break anything, because someone has told them/they have seen they can handle XXXX amount of watts.

Obviously the better solution would be that someone did it for them, but that isn't always possible (in their eyes).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is safe and why do you think it is desirable?

The easiest way to be safe is to buy an amp that doesn't have the capability of blowing a sub. Of course, dumbing down an amp that does by setting it safe nets you the same results and overall output.

So, you want to buy an 8k amp and make it a 1k amp? That'd be safe.

As for your comment on it taking longer with your ear, that is the biggest hock of shit I've ever heard. It is instantaneous. Hell you should be doing it for every song and even for parts of songs if you are pushing the limit. The DD-1 takes WAY longer. Training your ear can take some time, but that has side benefits and is desirable.

I agree on it all, although I wouldn't trust most people to tell them they have to use their ears.

I've seen too many people turn up the gain way too high in combination with maxing out the headunit and they couldn't hear anything wrong with that.

I think that's the kind of people that should use it.

You can't even talk sense into them by saying they should use a smaller amp if they don't want to break anything, because someone has told them/they have seen they can handle XXXX amount of watts.

Obviously the better solution would be that someone did it for them, but that isn't always possible (in their eyes).

Because all they wanted was loud bass and don't know any better. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is safe and why do you think it is desirable?

The easiest way to be safe is to buy an amp that doesn't have the capability of blowing a sub. Of course, dumbing down an amp that does by setting it safe nets you the same results and overall output.

So, you want to buy an 8k amp and make it a 1k amp? That'd be safe.

As for your comment on it taking longer with your ear, that is the biggest hock of shit I've ever heard. It is instantaneous. Hell you should be doing it for every song and even for parts of songs if you are pushing the limit. The DD-1 takes WAY longer. Training your ear can take some time, but that has side benefits and is desirable.

I agree on it all, although I wouldn't trust most people to tell them they have to use their ears.

I've seen too many people turn up the gain way too high in combination with maxing out the headunit and they couldn't hear anything wrong with that.

I think that's the kind of people that should use it.

You can't even talk sense into them by saying they should use a smaller amp if they don't want to break anything, because someone has told them/they have seen they can handle XXXX amount of watts.

Obviously the better solution would be that someone did it for them, but that isn't always possible (in their eyes).

You can't idiot proof it though. That is the whole crux of the scenario. Ok, you can as I described before: turn a 1k amp into a 200w, a 5k into a 1k, etc, but then why even bother? That is what is safe and no DD-1, oscope or anything else will get anyone else there. Teach them to listen and there is a solution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's why I use a pac. Knob. It allows me to lower or raise the signal going to the amplifier to a fine degree allowing you to turn it up or down.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's why I use a pac. Knob. It allows me to lower or raise the signal going to the amplifier to a fine degree allowing you to turn it up or down.

 

I do the same with my crossover, it works quite well.

 

I think a majority of the issue at hand with the DD-1 is a lack of understanding by the defending party. Its been said a thousand times it seems, but the DD-1 does not make your gain setting any more safe than setting it by any other method. The only truly safe way to set it is by taking the time to listen to distortion, time being quite scalable to understand what distortion sounds like, and the time it takes for you to immediately notice a problem and turn it down. If a user does not truly understand what distortion sounds like, within reason, distort the speaker on purpose. This is how you can teach your ear to differentiate the difference if you really have no idea. Once you know what it sounds like, adjust accordingly. If you have a hard time with this, set the gain lower for a safety net. Most people should be able to discern a difference pretty rapidly, which is why I use a level knob near the driver's seat so that I can adjust it easily.

 

It seems to me that people think the DD-1, multimeter, o-scope, etc, are the reference to trust. In some cases in the real world such as this, your own senses are better tools to trust. If you think about it, the only way you could get a tool to give you the best possible scenario for SPL on music would be to have a tool that could automatically change your gain in a specific pattern for a specific song. That becomes a pointless and complex venture very quickly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is safe and why do you think it is desirable?

The easiest way to be safe is to buy an amp that doesn't have the capability of blowing a sub. Of course, dumbing down an amp that does by setting it safe nets you the same results and overall output.

So, you want to buy an 8k amp and make it a 1k amp? That'd be safe.

As for your comment on it taking longer with your ear, that is the biggest hock of shit I've ever heard. It is instantaneous. Hell you should be doing it for every song and even for parts of songs if you are pushing the limit. The DD-1 takes WAY longer. Training your ear can take some time, but that has side benefits and is desirable.

I agree on it all, although I wouldn't trust most people to tell them they have to use their ears.

I've seen too many people turn up the gain way too high in combination with maxing out the headunit and they couldn't hear anything wrong with that.

I think that's the kind of people that should use it.

You can't even talk sense into them by saying they should use a smaller amp if they don't want to break anything, because someone has told them/they have seen they can handle XXXX amount of watts.

Obviously the better solution would be that someone did it for them, but that isn't always possible (in their eyes).

You can't idiot proof it though. That is the whole crux of the scenario. Ok, you can as I described before: turn a 1k amp into a 200w, a 5k into a 1k, etc, but then why even bother? That is what is safe and no DD-1, oscope or anything else will get anyone else there. Teach them to listen and there is a solution.
Interesting, so the DD-1 or a scope aren't able to set it closer to a safe setting then your ears, that's the point why you shouldn't use the equipment right? (obviously it's not only your ears, but also smell and your eyes to see if they aren't exceeding mechanical limit)

Now I know how to explain people that those tools are pretty much worthless.

Edited by kirill007

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is safe and why do you think it is desirable?

The easiest way to be safe is to buy an amp that doesn't have the capability of blowing a sub. Of course, dumbing down an amp that does by setting it safe nets you the same results and overall output.

So, you want to buy an 8k amp and make it a 1k amp? That'd be safe.

As for your comment on it taking longer with your ear, that is the biggest hock of shit I've ever heard. It is instantaneous. Hell you should be doing it for every song and even for parts of songs if you are pushing the limit. The DD-1 takes WAY longer. Training your ear can take some time, but that has side benefits and is desirable.

I agree on it all, although I wouldn't trust most people to tell them they have to use their ears.

I've seen too many people turn up the gain way too high in combination with maxing out the headunit and they couldn't hear anything wrong with that.

I think that's the kind of people that should use it.

You can't even talk sense into them by saying they should use a smaller amp if they don't want to break anything, because someone has told them/they have seen they can handle XXXX amount of watts.

Obviously the better solution would be that someone did it for them, but that isn't always possible (in their eyes).

You can't idiot proof it though. That is the whole crux of the scenario. Ok, you can as I described before: turn a 1k amp into a 200w, a 5k into a 1k, etc, but then why even bother? That is what is safe and no DD-1, oscope or anything else will get anyone else there. Teach them to listen and there is a solution.
Interesting, so the DD-1 or a scope aren't able to set it closer to a safe setting then your ears, that's the point why you shouldn't use the equipment right? (obviously it's not only your ears, but also smell and your eyes to see if they aren't exceeding mechanical limit)

Now I know how to explain people that those tools are pretty much worthless.

Exactly. The entire issue is that the sound source is not constant, so no matter what method you use the amp will most likely be below and over it's limits during usage (or as Sean said, if you set the gain low enough to be "safe" then your turning a 5k amp into a 1k amp). One ought to be able to hear this change when it's too much, and then adjust the volume and/or bass knob accordingly.

Perhaps the following analogy would help:

Imagine a canon set to hit a target 1km away. In order to hit the target the canon is set to 50 degree angle (gain). Regardless of the method used to find this angle, it is the degree at which the canon will hit the target at 1km. This target could be thought of as signal A.

Now move the target to 1.5km. Without any adjustment to the angle on the canon the shot will fall short. This could be thought of as a change to the sound source, or signal B, and in this instance the output of the amplifier would be less, and would require more gain or an increased signal level to match the output that signal A would have yielded.

The canon's angle has to be readjusted in order to match the new distance. Say the new angle is 60 degrees for a 1.5km target. If you moved the target back to 1km than the cannon would over shoot (or the gain would be too high and the amp would reach it's limits and distort the sound).

So no matter what method you use to set the angle of the cannon for a given distance it will be off when the distance is changed (input source change, went from ipod to phone, cd, usb, radio, different song, etc). No matter what method used to set the gain on the amp it will either be in and out of it's limits as the sound source changes, or it will be set low enough to be "safe" and you just made your 5kw amp into a 1kw amp. Regardless of how it's set you're still going to need to make adjustments from source to source via volume knob / bass knob.

Perhaps if the DD-1 measured the sound source accurately (which I have absolutely no idea) than it could be useful IF your sound source never changed.

Hopefully my analogy wasn't too confusing to follow.

Edited by stefanhinote

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The entire though process behind this is stupid. People are using these tools to set gains without distortion. It's doesn't matter even if Wiily Wonka and Dr. Emmett Brown got together and used Sean's 250k scope and triple checked it with the vibrio meter to match the gain to the amps .5 THD rating.

Evening if the source voltage or content never changed. Speakers are rated at 10% distortion and subs are rated at 20%. Distortion. BC YOU CAN NOT HEAR THE DISTORTION until this point.

So why in the hell are people worried about setting gains for no distortion or 1, 2, 5%. It makes no difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×