What we're about

[Flatline1 33]

They weren't tested using a valid test methodology with calibrated equipment and compared to the factory specifications using the same thresholds.  Which means the answer to my question is no, and the claim that they produce more than rated power is unproven and unsupported.

 

Normally a company makes a claim when they have the evidence to actually support it.  Nothing against your amps.  But you have nothing to actually support your claim, and unsupported claims I do have a problem with.  It's misleading and breeds ignorance among consumers.  Especially when a company is using something as useless as a clamp test to verify their "rated power" and promoting it as the evidence that they exceed "rated power".   

 

Well that's your opinion and you are entitled to it so if you have any more questions feel free to ask. One thing about us you will find out we aren't  here to deceive or lie to make a sale of amplifier. We are used to all the doubt as we have been through this for the past year and we are still here so as I stated if you have any more questions or comments we will be here.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Flatline1

[Tirefryr 1,742]

They weren't tested using a valid test methodology with calibrated equipment and compared to the factory specifications using the same thresholds.  Which means the answer to my question is no, and the claim that they produce more than rated power is unproven and unsupported.

 

Normally a company makes a claim when they have the evidence to actually support it.  Nothing against your amps.  But you have nothing to actually support your claim, and unsupported claims I do have a problem with.  It's misleading and breeds ignorance among consumers.  Especially when a company is using something as useless as a clamp test to verify their "rated power" and promoting it as the evidence that they exceed "rated power".   

 

Well that's your opinion and you are entitled to it so if you have any more questions feel free to ask. One thing about us you will find out we aren't  here to deceive or lie to make a sale of amplifier. We are used to all the doubt as we have been through this for the past year.

 

 

He's not stating you're out to lie, cheat,or do a disservice to the customer.  He is stating a FACT that the testing methods are not a valid comparison to the measuring practices used by the factory, and even then we're assuming the factory is measuring them Properly as well.  We're not trying to be hard on you, we are simply trying to convey that the member base here knows better than to put validity in clamp tests and other "simple" methods.  IT's not an opinion, it is a FACT.  Others may use it, and there is a certain group of people who do think because Bob and Jim use it in their youtube videos that it must be the way it's done.

[Flatline1 33]

Your points are taken and I am not here to argue testing methods, I am not a engineer nor do I design anything. I am just a guy that loves loud bass as everyone else does. I have been in the industry for over 15years and know how amplifiers are tested but since we don't have all the fancy equipment at our disposal we just test them as most other companies have done. To me clamp test are pointless anyway because no one rides around playing test tones. I as most do I hope anyway lol, ride and play music. Test in labs are done with dummy loads and hardly if any voltage drop under optimal conditions that will never be reached in a vehicle.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Flatline1

[Tirefryr 1,742]

Your points are taken and I am not here to argue testing methods, I am not a engineer nor do I design anything. I am just a guy that loves loud bass as everyone else does. I have been in the industry for over 15years and know how amplifiers are tested but since we don't have all the fancy equipment at our disposal we just test them as most other companies have done. To me clamp test are pointless anyway because no one rides around playing test tones. I as most do I hope anyway lol, ride and play music. Test in labs are done with dummy loads and hardly if any voltage drop under optimal conditions that will never be reached in a vehicle.

I agree with you, but I'd like to know why you posted them being clamped if you find it a pointless test?

[Flatline1 33]

Your points are taken and I am not here to argue testing methods, I am not a engineer nor do I design anything. I am just a guy that loves loud bass as everyone else does. I have been in the industry for over 15years and know how amplifiers are tested but since we don't have all the fancy equipment at our disposal we just test them as most other companies have done. To me clamp test are pointless anyway because no one rides around playing test tones. I as most do I hope anyway lol, ride and play music. Test in labs are done with dummy loads and hardly if any voltage drop under optimal conditions that will never be reached in a vehicle.

I agree with you, but I'd like to know why you posted them being clamped if you find it a pointless test?

 

Because majority of customers ask about clamp and test numbers. That's the main question that's always asked by customers so I posted them. Any other questions feel free.

[Tirefryr 1,742]

Thank you.

[IDGAF 0]

This place is a riot.

 

Clamping is useless, invalid and breeds ignorance.

 

How do people test amps around here? Show me how it's so flawed that it warrants disrespect from the "tech team" and mods to a new vendor. Let's see this scientific method in action.

 

What's a fair sample size? 100 or so? Have you tested 100 amps using ABX measurement methodologies? What are these highly calibrated devices being calibrated with? How are those calibration devices calibrated?

 

If you or the tech team haven't done this test, then who has? Where are you getting this information? Just exactly how flawed is 99.99% of people on the planet's testing? And what is the standard deviation?

 

Help me understand the vehemence against clamping around here. Is there a sticky or something?

[Impious 1,476]

You are arguing religion.  Is the world flat just because everyone thought it was?  Is the Earth the center of the solar system just because everyone thought it was?  Is clamp testing an accurate measurement method just because a lot of people do it?

 

We don't have a lot of clamp test results on this forum, outside of a couple manufacturer forums that I'm aware of.  Maybe it's because our core member base understands the limitations and inaccuracies involved in the procedure and therefore don't waste their time. Why they are so popular on other forums is probably a case of the blind leading the blind.  Just because someone performs a "test" of some sort, doesn't mean the test or results are meaningful.  This seems to be lost on many people. 

 

I have less of a problem with clamp tests (aside from their uselessness) than I do the conclusions people draw from them.  A prime example is Flatline using them to demonstrate that their amplifier's are "underrated".  The tests weren't performed in a manor to validate that claim.  Had Flatline not made that particular statement, I wouldn't have commented in this thread.  Whether or not he is new to the forum is completely irrelevant.     

 

We do have one manufacturer here who has posted a lot of clamp tests, and I've not busted his balls about it because he has always carefully chosen his words.  To my knowledge, on this forum, he has never used them as evidence that his amplifiers are underrated.  He'll say something along the lines of "Based on these tests we're comfortable with the design".  Ok, that's fine.  He's not implying they are anything more than an inaccurate estimate.  But he's never said, that I've seen on this forum, anything implying the results are proof they are underrated or that they even meet rated power.  Just that he's happy with the results.  And that's fine.  I have however busted the balls of people who later misinterpret the results of the tests. 

 

Since you want to play the "but everyone does it so it must be right" card......how many professionals in the industry use only a clamp meter & DMM to measure actual power output?  I've seen a lot of magazine reviews done by professionals in the industry (both car and home), and have never seen one of them use only a clamp meter & DMM to measure power.  Do the buildhouses use nothing but a clamp meter & DMM to verify their designs?  Do the real manufacturers in the industry (not the rebadgers) use only a clamp meter & DMM to verify their designs?  If clamp tests are so valid, why is it only the amateurs do them?  Why do the professionals spend thousands to tens of thousands on equipment if a clamp, DMM and pocket o-scope will do the exact same thing for a couple hundred?

[IDGAF 0]

Tell me... how do manufacturers arrive at their ratings then? What magical devices are they using?

 

Have you ever seen a comparison of the DSO nano vs. a high dollar benchtop?

 

If everyone on this board understands the inaccuracies and limitations of them... then what are they? Explain it to me.

 

What I really don't understand is how you can claim that the results aren't meaningful. If results are able to be successfully replicated time and time again, then they're meaningful. Regardless of their accuracy. Or perceived lack thereof.

 

If I clamp a certain 2k and it does 2,000w and then clamp another 2k the same way and it does 2,500w. The latter is louder. Period. Does it matter that it may actually be 2 watts and 2.5 watts? No. Because the results are repeatable and verifiable.

 

And I know what maufacturer you're talking about with clamps on here. And I find it comical that these diatribes about clamping irrelevance and inaccuracy aren't plastered in his threads simply because of verbage. He's using the same tools in the same way to verify the output of his amplifiers. Yet... the results shared for the Flatline stuff shows ignorance?

[jonbearsmt 919]

 i think you misunderstand the questions with attacking,  this is unlike alot of boards out there.. we have a very intelligent group here at SSA, and whats wrong with asking questions that matter?

 

 

 and for the record i give flatline props for standing in there and giving what ever incite he has and also admitting when he does not know..... i can name a few companies that either try to lie/ bullshit there was thru it , or run....

[Flatline1 33]

Ok this has gotten out of hand and way off of the topic itself if you can refrain from any more commets on our thread aout the numbers that are posted we would really appreciate it. Feel free to PM each other about everything and just not post it here. Thanks.

[Impious 1,476]

 Yet... the results shared for the Flatline stuff shows ignorance?

I'll comment on this one particular statement then drop the subject per Flatline's request just to briefly explain why this isn't a personal attack against them compared to the other manufacturer.

 

Yes, it is different and yes it does promote ignorance when a statement such as "Here is our proof these amps are underrated" is made regarding those tests.  The context is completely different than the other manufacturer.  If you don't understand this, then you are part of the problem.