More power for mids?

[lithium 358]

i believe this is sibilance.  I'm not sure what the best way to address it (change location/aiming vs EQ vs new driver). You could start with eq. If you screw around with tones or an App on your phone like funcgen you'll find the a peak or two. I think its around 6-8khz. 

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

A reference chart for you brother. 

As Jay-cee suggested, test tones might help you pick out the offensive frequencies. Here is a link.

 

 http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/topic/42728-test-tones-sliding-tones-pink-noise-all-lossless-for-dl/

 

As we are all here to learn and help. I will give my logic on a few things. 

 

My logic on making cuts FIRST on the EQ before boosting, Is its best to remove the nasty shit first before adding more to the mess. sure you can start anywhere, but logically that's a good place to start if your unsure.

 

My logic on phase vs T/A as Sean's answer was brief. Different frequency soundwaves are different lengths crest to crest. The only way to achieve absolute phase would be if the drivers are mounted together, on the same plane at the same distance. Which is almost impossible even in a studio let alone anywhere else.  What we are trying to achieve by reversing polarity on only one speaker is to change the relative phase. In a car for example the passenger speaker is already multiple crests ahead of the drivers speaker by the time it reaches your ear. Some frequency's will still be in phase or close to it, while other frequencys are not. Due to the waves being different lengths they are going to be different degrees out of phase. When you reverse to polarity you are hoping to bring certain frequencys waves closer to an acceptable degree of phase. An out of phase wave may lead to an absence or even distortion at that particular frequency. Some will even prefer the distortion as it may sound louder to them, over the sterile sound. Subwoofers would be a great example, out of phase they may sound louder due to distortion, but the ear is not as sensitive to distortion in that range so they will enjoy the obnoxious boost. For YOUR purpose today we are hoping that the reverse brings the midbass to life by shifting the relative phase. T/A will shift all soundwaves, I believe it is called a phase shift.

 

The other purpose for trying different phasing would be at the x-over points. As the tweeter and mid are playing the same freq at or near this point, you may get a suck out around the x-over point. The same thing is occurring with the relative phase. Sometimes reversing phase will only worsen the dip in the response and you just have to live with the better of the two.

 

I do not have a degree in acoustics so may of used a term with other meanings or missed something. My experience is from being in friends studios and at live shows. Nothing worse than live music coming through in waves with half the harmonics missing. Not to be confused with the echo of to many sound sources. I call the latter the Wal-mart sound.

[///M5 2,833]

As recommended it would now be good to use some tones to try to isolate the annoyance. May be able to just eq it out.

Curious how the "gap" bothers you or not. 1.6 to 3.15 is only one octave so while it is an important one it really depends on you.

Also check if you lower the frequency the driver plays if the SSS's goes away.

[hdrox88 142]

I made some test tones with the generator in the link above. I used the same frequencies as the bands in the eq on the 80prs to help simplify what I was doing. I found 800hz and 1250hz needing to be cut a lot(-4db to -6db) to help curb the irritation in the mids. I was playing the tones on a semi low volume while doing this. I did each of the four drivers independently, just getting each one to have the most equal response I could get. Unfortunately, when I played music and brought the volume up to moderate to high levels the irritation was still there. It seemed to help with the SSS in the tweeters though so I guess that is a plus. I got what seems to be a much flatter response across the board, but I did nothing for the irritation.

 

As for the "gap," I dropped the tweets to 2.5khz@12db as it was lacking in that area too much.

[///M5 2,833]

All the irritation in the mid then?

[hdrox88 142]

Yes, the tweeters just had the little bit of SSS going on but that seems to be addressed now. I don't know how else to describe the irritation other than what I had mentioned earlier with the chalkboard analogy. I'm not sure if it can make a difference, but can pushing them too hard cause permanent damage that would cause such a thing? I've had them hot and stink twice since since I started really trying to see what they can do. I get what sounds like coil rub every now and then, just curious if that could be causing the irritation even though I don't hear the coil rub sound when I am getting the irritation.

[///M5 2,833]

Does it occur when you turn the gain down?

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Push on the speaker when it is not playing. Do you hear the coil scraping then?

[hdrox88 142]

I haven't touched the gain since I did the install. Yes, when I physically push on the cone I get the scraping noise a little. if put the slightest bit more pressure on one side it is really bad. When looking at the mid straight on, the phase plug and coil are not concentric to each other either. Like something is off center.

Edited July 5, 2014 by hdrox88

[lithium 358]

you might have toasted the coil. there shouldn't be any scraping sound. 

[hdrox88 142]

Ya, I'm pretty sure they aren't to happy with me. When playing music I don't really hear the scraping much at all. I know what it is when I do hear it though. I am curious if the coil being in less than ideal condition can cause the irritation problem I'm having.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Most likely the coil has started to come unwound. Thought something didn't sound right when you said one driver sounded warmer. I assume the blown driver is the one that was lacking midbass.

[hdrox88 142]

I'd say the occasional coil scratch sound is fairly equal between the two drivers, as is the irritation I am trying to figure out. It is just the left mid that is dropping off bad at <125hz. Is that from being way off axis, or a sign that it is closer to complete failure compared to the other mid?

Edited July 6, 2014 by hdrox88

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Sounds like those driver's weren't DOH-zer approved.

Off axis should not affect the low frequencies. That driver shouldn't start beaming until around 500hz I would guess.  You ear can localize frequencies above that, but can only differentiate left to right below 500hz.  

[hdrox88 142]

That's what I thought, just wasn't concrete on the matter as far as what frequency axis really starts playing a role. I'm really hoping the drivers are the root of the irritation problem as they are needing replaced anyway now.

Now that I think about it, that issue has been there since day one. Even before I bridged the mids on the 4ch.

Edited July 6, 2014 by hdrox88

[hdrox88 142]

At the cost of sounding anxious, I feel like an end result is pretty close. I'm not sure of any other testing to be doing at this point, or when I should be shopping. I didn't want to be making any stabs in the dark this time around, so all the help thus far has been greatly appreciated.

[///M5 2,833]

I'd say the occasional coil scratch sound is fairly equal between the two drivers, as is the irritation I am trying to figure out. It is just the left mid that is dropping off bad at <125hz. Is that from being way off axis, or a sign that it is closer to complete failure compared to the other mid?

Is this the same if you change seats? Did you determine this listening to each independently?

At the cost of sounding anxious, I feel like an end result is pretty close. I'm not sure of any other testing to be doing at this point, or when I should be shopping. I didn't want to be making any stabs in the dark this time around, so all the help thus far has been greatly appreciated.

Has this helped you determine what about them you want to make better? Remember you will trade off frequency response for output. I can guess what I think you want, but you telling us is better

[hdrox88 142]

 

I'd say the occasional coil scratch sound is fairly equal between the two drivers, as is the irritation I am trying to figure out. It is just the left mid that is dropping off bad at <125hz. Is that from being way off axis, or a sign that it is closer to complete failure compared to the other mid?

Is this the same if you change seats? Did you determine this listening to each independently?

 

I did compare the left to right by listening to them independently. I did just try sitting in the passenger seat though and the response sounds fairly equal, left vs right. Sitting in the driver seat it is very obvious that once you get to 125hz or 80hz, response is several db less. I was using test tones to verify this. If I use the eq and +1 on the left and -2 or -3 on the right It gets them pretty close.

 

At the cost of sounding anxious, I feel like an end result is pretty close. I'm not sure of any other testing to be doing at this point, or when I should be shopping. I didn't want to be making any stabs in the dark this time around, so all the help thus far has been greatly appreciated.

Has this helped you determine what about them you want to make better? Remember you will trade off frequency response for output. I can guess what I think you want, but you telling us is better

 

At this point, the irritation is my biggest complaint. Second place is the gnarly peak in response at around 800-1250hz or so. I am not sure if this is going hand in hand with the irritation though as that is where it is most noticeable, and maybe it is making the peak sound worse than it is. Third, I would say mid bass could be helped a little, though if the left mid was putting out like the right one then it may not even be an issue for me at all. As for the xover gap, mids are 1.6khz@12db and tweets are at 2.5khz@12db, it seems to be ok for the system as a whole. Again, the irritation may be impeding my judgement on this as well.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Don't feel bad. One of my mids has a wrecked coil and buzzes from time to time. It wasn't DOH-zer approved either. YOURS will be easier to find replacement for atleast.

[///M5 2,833]

What you have issues with may be your car and not your drivers. It is unusual to need to have the drivers side driver louder than the passengers. Sound falls off to the square of the distance away so the further one away should be louder. Since this isn't the case either there is something wrong with your headunit, your amp, or something physical in your car. This is why I asked you to swap seats. If it is physical with your car then it'll happen on new drivers as well.

The first step I'd do is try to eq it out. If you know the frequency and have an eq that is independent L/R you can try this. Of course if you don't have a Pioneer 80/88prs or off board processor you won't have that capability. Pretty cool you actually heard this though as most people flat out don't and that makes it rather hard to explain why an independent l/r eq is important. I can't imagine not having one.

Does the perceived volume stay the same whether they are played each on their own or together? If it is strange only while together then try to flip the phase (rev +/-) of one of the two drivers.

Considering your issue in the midrange I'd look for a naturally easy driver to eq. ie, one without breakup modes. The easiest way for a manufacturer to achieve this would be with a non-exotic cone like paper. The Seas CA18rnx is a hell of a driver for a first installation for this reason. It is SUPER easy to eq and can play nice nearly up to 4kHz. Rolls off so easily most could get away without BP it even. There are other drivers that can work as well, but that one would improve both your midrange and your midbass.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

The destructive distortion/phase cancellation occurring with ONLY one driver playing would most likely be from reflective sounds reaching your ear out of phase from the original sound.

[hdrox88 142]

From 200hz and up I can't really hear any difference from left to right mid in either seat. It is only when I try 125hz and 80hz tones that the left mid suddenly drops off. I was able to eq the difference out with about 3-4db of total adjustment as I mentioned in my last post.

Sitting in the driver seat, if I listen to 125hz on the left mid and turn on the right, the volume jumps. If I start with the right mid and bring in the left, I don't really notice an increase in volume. I didn't notice there was a difference in mid bass response from left to right until I actually started listening to them independently. One thing I did notice yesterday, when at very low volume at 125hz(just enough to actually hear the tone) I also heard what was almost like a squeaky noise in the left mid. It was so faint I almost didn't hear it over the tone even at low volume. I though it was odd and maybe worth mentioning.

[hdrox88 142]

The destructive distortion/phase cancellation occurring with ONLY one driver playing would most likely be from reflective sounds reaching your ear out of phase from the original sound.

That makes sense, though would it not behave the same when switching to the passenger seat? Of course, I'm sure the steering wheel can have a pretty big impact on stuff like this? Parking brake pedal is close as well now that I think about it.

I suppose this is where axis not only affects the line of sight response, but the reflective response as well?

Edited July 8, 2014 by hdrox88

[///M5 2,833]

If your car was completely symmetric the response should be as well.

[hdrox88 142]

Makes perfect sense.

I was doing a little research on the mentioned driver and couldn't help but notice the drop in power handling and sensitivity. I know ratings vary from one manufacturer to the other, but it's enough of a difference to raise an eyebrow. I realize we newbies need to learn to walk before we can run, but I'd hate to take a step backward in output. My xcon 15 can already start to overpower everything else when I really let it loose. I also noticed one site had enclosure specs listed, would running IB in the door be ok for it? I'm don't think I'm ready for enclosures in the front end yet.