New front stage....need input

[EddieC 17]

Ok guys my big build (to me) is finally in the works. I have begun ordering and need some advice on my front stage. My car is a 2004 Scion xB. Not a lot of room in the doors as they sit, but I'm prepared to modify the panels to get the sound I want. As of now I'm running a Pioneer DEH-X8600BH head unit (which may change to a double DIN before it's over) so I'm not looking to run active. I just want to get a front stage that actually has some bass to it. Right now without the subs running it sounds like total crap as there's no bass whatsoever to these Polk DB6.5s. I would like to be able to have a setup that would sound great with no sub playing.

The front stage as of now (may change) will be powered by a Hifonics X14 X1200.4 (please don't hate....it puts out good power for what I need). What I'm looking at is the RE XXX 6.5 component set. From what I've seen and heard these things pack a punch when it comes to the lows. Plus the fact that they handle 150 RMS+ at 2 ohms (some claim to be pushing 250 on them with no issues) they should get pretty loud as the amp claims to push 300x4 @ 2 ohms (granted I know it's not going to be all that but should be close). The only complaint I've heard from these speakers is that the vocal area seems to be lacking. What would you guys suggest to add some depth in that area?

[pmureika 31]

The front stage wasn't meant to have bass.

 

Maybe some mid bass but not what a sub woofer can do.

 

Just find the best set of component speakers you like.

 

They will produce what bass they can.

 

Go listen to some at comps. at your local audio stores.

Edited September 12, 2014 by pmureika

[jcarter1885 994]

First step would be to treat your doors before spending money on new equipment. Usually with a mid that has better lowend there is a tradeoff and that might be in the midrange frequencies. You cant have both, going active would open up your choices to better drivers.

[EddieC 17]

The front stage wasn't meant to have bass.

 

Maybe some mid bass but not what a sub woofer can do.

 

Just find the best set of component speakers you like.

 

They will produce what bass they can.

 

Go listen to some at comps. at your local audio stores.

Mid bass is more of what I was referring to. I know I'm not going to be hitting 30 Hz with them I just want them to sound as good and punchy as possible. I have listened to so many sets that it's getting hard to remember what's what. What I do know is that the XXXs had a nice low end to them and had a good overall sound. That's why I had pretty much decided on them. I just figured that since I still have 2 channels to play with adding something that works well in the vocal area would help to round out the sound. Am I wrong in thinking this?  

 

First step would be to treat your doors before spending money on new equipment. Usually with a mid that has better lowend there is a tradeoff and that might be in the midrange frequencies. You cant have both, going active would open up your choices to better drivers.

The doors are getting treated asap. I know that has a lot to do with the lacking I'm experiencing now. The Polks are only rated for 60 watts, and I'm giving them every bit they can take at 100 per channel with gains dialed back. But I know there's no way they'll keep up with that Ethos on 2200 watts.....thus the upgrade. But I understand what you're saying about the tradeoff, and that's where I was thinking a good midrange would help balance things, especially with 2 open channels to play with. That's why I'm asking you guys. I'm not ashamed to admit that my knowledge is limited in this matter and need to know what's right and wrong. What works and what doesn't.

[jcarter1885 994]

What is your total buget for a front stage? I wouldnt add a midrange unless going active. Find a nice set of components that you can compromise with, that can give you that balance you're looking for.

Or take a look at a Mini Dsp about $110 bucks to control all your processing needs for running active. A nice 8" and full range three way would be a nice setup, plus it wont hurt your wallet either. Seeing as you want a more midbass oriented front stage with the ability to have good amount of output. Just an option to look into.

Edited September 12, 2014 by jay-cee

[EddieC 17]

What is your total buget for a front stage? I wouldnt add a midrange unless going active. Find a nice set of components that you can compromise with, that can give you that balance you're looking for.

Or take a look at a Mini Dsp about $110 bucks to control all your processing needs for running active. A nice 8" and full range three way would be a nice setup, plus it wont hurt your wallet either. Seeing as you want a more midbass oriented front stage with the ability to have good amount of output. Just an option to look into.

Right now I don't really have a budget, but I'm also not looking to pour a wad into it. As long as the amp does it's job, I'm willing to put around $1K (less would be nice) into it. I had actually thought about running an 8 along with a set of components to begin with but trying to figure where the hell to fit that 8 was my main concern.

[///M5 2,833]

Biggest concern is installation. Drivers matter hardly at all in comparison.

You are also being very confused by marketing. Power handling has NOTHING to do with output. No matter what you choose more output will be directly proportional to less frequency response. Everything is a trade off.

Slapping the XXX set in your installation as it is now will have WAY LESS of an effect as fixing the install. Your drivers may not be good, but there is nothing special about the set you are looking at either.

As for adding an 8" driver with a comp set, that isn't logical at all either. If you have an 8" midbass then the mid on the comp set should be WAY smaller. A 3 way set with an 8, 6.5, and a tweet is down right a serious waste of money.

[EddieC 17]

Biggest concern is installation. Drivers matter hardly at all in comparison.

You are also being very confused by marketing. Power handling has NOTHING to do with output. No matter what you choose more output will be directly proportional to less frequency response. Everything is a trade off.

Slapping the XXX set in your installation as it is now will have WAY LESS of an effect as fixing the install. Your drivers may not be good, but there is nothing special about the set you are looking at either.

As for adding an 8" driver with a comp set, that isn't logical at all either. If you have an 8" midbass then the mid on the comp set should be WAY smaller. A 3 way set with an 8, 6.5, and a tweet is down right a serious waste of money.

Fixing the install is what I intend to do. I just paid off the car and am finally able to do all the things I've wanted to from the beginning. I just truly don't know the best way to get what I'm looking for. If I need to run active, so be it. I'll get whatever I need to do it and do it right. As for the speakers, it's all up in the air at this point. What I'm looking for sound-wise is something that really pushes the guitar sound when playing rock music. I want a guitar tone with the crunch of a Marshall stack. I guess playing in heavy rock bands all these years I've been spoiled with great live tones and I'd like to get as close to that as possible. I just need to know how to get there.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

No shame in not wanting to run active. Is always an option as you get more discerning tastes. 

 

I have not rode in a Scion, but could guess there is road noise present. Unfortunately, usually in the midbass frequency range. Making weak midbass disappear all together when driving. 

 

In a perfect acoustical environment you would not need the boosted midbass, but a car is far from. 

 

One option to lowering the noise floor is block the inner body channels/cavity's the sound is travelling up through into the cabin from the road. The base of the a-piller and door runners are a good place to start. Treat the doors too of course.

 

As far as more edge/crunch sound from the guitar, you need to work on tuning what you have first. Very little of that detail is in the midbass range.

[EddieC 17]

No shame in not wanting to run active. Is always an option as you get more discerning tastes. 

 

I have not rode in a Scion, but could guess there is road noise present. Unfortunately, usually in the midbass frequency range. Making weak midbass disappear all together when driving. 

 

In a perfect acoustical environment you would not need the boosted midbass, but a car is far from. 

 

One option to lowering the noise floor is block the inner body channels/cavity's the sound is travelling up through into the cabin from the road. The base of the a-piller and door runners are a good place to start. Treat the doors too of course.

 

As far as more edge/crunch sound from the guitar, you need to work on tuning what you have first. Very little of that detail is in the midbass range.

Thanks again for the input man. I've ordered some Second Skin Damplifier Pro to deaden the vehicle. Gonna start there and see where it takes me. I know I lose a lot of the sound through the doors, as I can hear it pretty darn loud outside the vehicle with the windows up. Since disconnecting the rears and bridging the fronts to gain more power, I do have a better sound but it's just that lack of mid bass that's really bothering me. Hopefully finally deadening the doors will help change all that. I just hate the thought of running only 2 channels off of this 4 channel amp but I guess I'll just pick a nice set of components and see where I'm at then.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Sounds like your on the right track with the deadening. See if you can't fit a wood/MDF baffle to mount the actual driver to also.

I installed some Polk mm6501's a few months ago in a friends ride. They had no midbass even with a solid install. So feel ya there.

I personnally have 12" midbasses to please my needs for that realistic live sound. Not that I'm suggesting that extreme.

The RE XXX's are like mini subs and some drivers I've wanted to play with.

A mid with high x-max and low fs would be a good starting point in your search.

[hdrox88 142]

Another key point in this situation is separating the front and back waves. If you have not ventured over to SDS website yet, I highly suggest reading anything and everything on that site. Top notch info, products, and customer service!

[EddieC 17]

Sounds like your on the right track with the deadening. See if you can't fit a wood/MDF baffle to mount the actual driver to also.

I installed some Polk mm6501's a few months ago in a friends ride. They had no midbass even with a solid install. So feel ya there.

I personnally have 12" midbasses to please my needs for that realistic live sound. Not that I'm suggesting that extreme.

The RE XXX's are like mini subs and some drivers I've wanted to play with.

A mid with high x-max and low fs would be a good starting point in your search.

Yeah I'm going to use MDF this time. Last time I used the supports that came with the stock system. In case you haven't seen them they were a freaking pain! Had to cut the speaker out with a hacksaw blade (all I had on me). Took about an hour each just to get them out. But I'm doing some more searching while everything comes together. Still would kind of like to have a large driver in the doors but I'll do more research. My 220 amp alt should be here next week so I'm going to run my wire this weekend. Quick question there..... where do I wire my voltmeter to.... the back battery? I'm guessing that makes the most sense.

 

Another key point in this situation is separating the front and back waves. If you have not ventured over to SDS website yet, I highly suggest reading anything and everything on that site. Top notch info, products, and customer service!

Yes I have. I've read and learned a lot there. We have a lot of the same materials where I work as sound and vibration suppression research is done in the building next door. Got the hookup on some tiles, etc. and plan to put that knowledge to use. May have to pick up a few things from them that we don't have.

[jcarter1885 994]

Some people hook the volt meter to the back battery, their sub amp or radio. Just depends and personal preference really.

[EddieC 17]

Some people hook the volt meter to the back battery, their sub amp or radio. Just depends and personal preference really.

Thanks man...So it will give me the same reading regardless of placement?

[jcarter1885 994]

No it wont give you the same reading. If you place it at the sub amp you will be only receiving the voltage the amplifier is seeing at any given time. Correct me if im wrong anybody, but at the rear battery or headunit may be the same or close to one another.

I usually just tie mine into the radios wiring harness

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

To the rear battery would be ideal as that's the point your wanting to monitor.

[EddieC 17]

 Did some sound deadening with some Second Skin Damplifier Pro last weekend and man, what a mistake it was to not do that first! The difference is night and day. I have only covered the inner section so far as I have to replace the window regulators on both sides (guess 300,000 miles will wear them out eventually...lol) but a lot of the sound I was missing is there with clarity now. Actually changed my opinion on these Polks, although they're still on the way out. Wish I could find somewhere locally to check out a set of Image Dynamics CTX-6.5cs components. They have come up A LOT in my searches for good 6.5 components. But anyways....lesson learned. ALWAYS deaden the doors prior to installing ANYTHING!

[pmureika 31]

The sound goes in instead of people hearing it outside the car. lol

[EddieC 17]

The sound goes in instead of people hearing it outside the car. lol

You are correct sir! lol

It's amazing hearing the difference between tapping on the rear doors vs the fronts now. Guess it's time to pull the rear panels and do those too, even though there are no speakers in those doors. The handles are vibrating like crazy.....hopefully that will help to solve the issue.

[pmureika 31]

 

The sound goes in instead of people hearing it outside the car. lol

You are correct sir! lol

It's amazing hearing the difference between tapping on the rear doors vs the fronts now. Guess it's time to pull the rear panels and do those too, even though there are no speakers in those doors. The handles are vibrating like crazy.....hopefully that will help to solve the issue.

 

What I hate is all the plastic panels that rattle.

[EddieC 17]

 

 

The sound goes in instead of people hearing it outside the car. lol

You are correct sir! lol

It's amazing hearing the difference between tapping on the rear doors vs the fronts now. Guess it's time to pull the rear panels and do those too, even though there are no speakers in those doors. The handles are vibrating like crazy.....hopefully that will help to solve the issue.

 

What I hate is all the plastic panels that rattle.

 

Agreed. The one that's giving me the most problem is that plastic frame over the license plate that holds the latch release and license plate lights. I did some deadening in the hatch as well and it seemed to help quite a bit, but there's still a little noise (much easier to live with now though).

[pmureika 31]

 

 

 

The sound goes in instead of people hearing it outside the car. lol

You are correct sir! lol

It's amazing hearing the difference between tapping on the rear doors vs the fronts now. Guess it's time to pull the rear panels and do those too, even though there are no speakers in those doors. The handles are vibrating like crazy.....hopefully that will help to solve the issue.

 

What I hate is all the plastic panels that rattle.

 

Agreed. The one that's giving me the most problem is that plastic frame over the license plate that holds the latch release and license plate lights. I did some deadening in the hatch as well and it seemed to help quite a bit, but there's still a little noise (much easier to live with now though).

 

The problem I found was when I went for spl it caused a lot of problems.

 

Like shaking everything lose.

 

That's why I go for sq now not spl.

[EddieC 17]

 

 

 

 

The sound goes in instead of people hearing it outside the car. lol

You are correct sir! lol

It's amazing hearing the difference between tapping on the rear doors vs the fronts now. Guess it's time to pull the rear panels and do those too, even though there are no speakers in those doors. The handles are vibrating like crazy.....hopefully that will help to solve the issue.

 

What I hate is all the plastic panels that rattle.

 

Agreed. The one that's giving me the most problem is that plastic frame over the license plate that holds the latch release and license plate lights. I did some deadening in the hatch as well and it seemed to help quite a bit, but there's still a little noise (much easier to live with now though).

 

The problem I found was when I went for spl it caused a lot of problems.

 

Like shaking everything lose.

 

That's why I go for sq now not spl.

 

 I'm not really going for SPL. Just want to have enough power on tap to thump a little harder. Shouldn't have a problem with an Ethos on 2200 RMS. I'm sure it'll stay within the 1000-1500 range most of the time. Maybe that won't shake things apart too much.

 Finished my deadening this weekend (at least the inner skins...still waiting on window regulators). Man what a difference! Also got my Yellow Top installed, Big 3 done in 1/0 ofc welding cable and ran my positive and negative cables to the rear. Alt to battery cable fused with 250 amp anl as well as 250 amp anls within 18" of each of the positive posts on my battery run. HO alt should be here today. Think I'm going to go ahead and install the x1200.4, bridge the rears to run the subs at 600 watts (never seen over 300) and run that until the Ethos arrives. I'm holding off on my SQ2200 until the Ethos comes to get the most out of the warranty. Still need a box design for the Ethos. Quentin was going to get back to me after I gave him the dimensions but either he's forgot or is just really busy getting ready for the motors to arrive. Thought about giving it a shot myself but when he recommended side firing/porting for better transfer that left me clueless, as the only box building software I see places the sub and port on the front face. Oh well....still a month to get it right.

[j-roadtatts 1,129]

Wheres the pics bro?

 

Good to hear its coming together for you.