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Florida_Audio

Can only one speaker be out of phase, and the other be in phase?

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I am trying to understand out of phase vs in phase?

Lets say you have 2 speakers, a left and a right.

Can only the left speaker be out of phase, while the right speaker in in phase?

Or if the speakers are out of phase, then both will be out of phase, and its not possible to have just one ?

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Thats what out of phase is.  One speaker is hooked up the opposite of the other

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1 hour ago, frogcase2002 said:

Thats what out of phase is.  One speaker is hooked up the opposite of the other

ok thanks.

so its basically that one is wired wrong, maybe.

the left speaker sounds as if the sound is being trapped within the door panel and not all is getting into my car. while the right speaker sounds a bit more clear. not too noticeable but a bit

but ive heard that out of phase will have much less bass. i do notice a slight different in bass in the left speaker but its not a whole lot? im not sure if it really is out of phase?

ive tried fading the speakers left to right all one way and then all the other. with just vocals, pure voice, i played the clips from this site:  http://www.richardfarrar.com/are-your-speakers-wired-correctly/

i played all clips, but the one by "Speaker Phase Test", i can clearly tell the different on my computer speakers, when the lady speaks in phase vs out of phase

but on my car speakers, its a bit harder to tell, they both almost sound exactly the same, very slight difference.

but the out of phase sound on my computer, sounds very similar to the way the music sounds on my left speaker in my car. my right speaker sounds much cleaner and a bit louder volume

 

ive been wondering why my music in my car starts to make my ears hurt after listening for not long. i lowered the tweeter attenuation all the way as low as it can to -6 and it helped, but it still sounds a bit odd

Edited by Florida_Audio

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1 hour ago, frogcase2002 said:

Thats what out of phase is.  One speaker is hooked up the opposite of the other

Um, not exactly.  That is just what you can change.  Or you could say you are right if both speakers are exactly at the same point in space.  Once you have separation it changes everything.  Speed of sound is constant but the number of waves in a space is dependent on frequency.  Each up+down of the sine wave contains 360 deg of phase.  Obviously with distance the point at which the sine wave for each frequency will arrive at your ear at a different time.  Regrettably this means for all frequencies it is different.  If you are 180deg out of phase with the exact same signal you have a sum of zero.  Zero is not something you want to hear.  This means you need to play around with the phase of all your speakers to see how nicely they sum.  I have NEVER had a car where both tweeters and both mids sounded best all wired "in" phase.  Your goal is to try to find the right combination of phase that sounds the best.

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1 hour ago, ///M5 said:

Um, not exactly.  That is just what you can change.  Or you could say you are right if both speakers are exactly at the same point in space.  Once you have separation it changes everything.  Speed of sound is constant but the number of waves in a space is dependent on frequency.  Each up+down of the sine wave contains 360 deg of phase.  Obviously with distance the point at which the sine wave for each frequency will arrive at your ear at a different time.  Regrettably this means for all frequencies it is different.  If you are 180deg out of phase with the exact same signal you have a sum of zero.  Zero is not something you want to hear.  This means you need to play around with the phase of all your speakers to see how nicely they sum.  I have NEVER had a car where both tweeters and both mids sounded best all wired "in" phase.  Your goal is to try to find the right combination of phase that sounds the best.

so is it possible one speaker is out of phase and sounds a bit lower in volume, and less clarity, compared to the other speaker? or would out of phase cause both to be equally bad?

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Phase as nothing to do with output of a single driver.  It also has nothing to do with clarity on a single driver.

Key word there is single...

In other words, shut off ALL of your other speakers and listen only to one midrange and then the other.  Then see if they are different.  Unplug the sub/tweeters as well.  ONLY one driver.  This is always one of the first steps in any tuning.  

Once you have optimized/equalized how things sound then play with swapping the phase and normal phase listening to only the mids, then to only the tweeters doing the same test, then to the tweeters and mids together.  Try every variation.  Your ears will know what to do.

If you have time alignment do that first.  Figure out what you like.  Write it down.  Then redo the test at both a little less and a little more time alignment.  Keep iterating until you are sure.

And yes that is hours of work, err fun :)

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Obviously if the two mids sound completely different on their own then you need to fix that problem first.  For us to help further in that case we need ALL your settings.

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1 hour ago, ///M5 said:

Obviously if the two mids sound completely different on their own then you need to fix that problem first.  For us to help further in that case we need ALL your settings.

yes i keep procrastinating taking photos of my amp settings, sorry... i will get to it someday lol. my bad.

how do you change the phase of one speaker? i didnt do the install... which i now really do regret. but mehhh i guess i get to learn now how to alter this... do you have to unscrew the speaker and get behind it? i thought they were some sort of connector that the factory speaker was connected to and it automatically uses the proper cords? its also a component set so yea theres a separate tweeter. i also think the screw for the speaker mount is different than normal screws, so ill need to purchase a new screwdriver for it

one side does definitely sound different than the other. it sounds almost as if the sound is being trapped in the door on the left and only some sound gets out, like bit less quality and lower volume. id assume the installer at the very least installed both sides with the same spacing between the speaker and door....

i do have time alignment, and i took measurements with a measuring tape but did not alter the setting on time alignment yet because im unhappy the sound quality, and i think that should be taken care of first, before altering the timing? or does maybe it doesnt matter what order i fix them in?

 

edit: i also downloaded a free app to check the phasing on my phone for car speakers. plug in with aux cord and it sends pop noises and checks the phase. but it seems extremely inaccurate. its never consistent at all with either speaker.

ive seen one on amazon for 7 bucks to check with pops but that apparently doesnt come with the CD for the pop noises. idk if theres some easy way to check phase without having to mess with wires first?

 

 

Edited by Florida_Audio

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yes i keep procrastinating taking photos of my amp settings, sorry... i will get to it someday lol. my bad.

Making threads is pointless until you do.  Your settings are jacked.  It will NEVER sound good until you let us help you.   Your lack of effort in doing what is asked so we can help is detracting from the desire to help.  We want to, but at this point it seems you don’t want help?

 

one side does definitely sound different than the other. it sounds almost as if the sound is being trapped in the door on the left and only some sound gets out, like bit less quality and lower volume. id assume the installer at the very least installed both sides with the same spacing between the speaker and door....

You can’t say that yet.  Didn’t you read my post about listening to each driver INDEPENDENTLY?  Only after that can you make that statement.

 

how do you change the phase of one speaker? i didnt do the install... which i now really do regret. but mehhh i guess i get to learn now how to alter this... do you have to unscrew the speaker and get behind it? i thought they were some sort of connector that the factory speaker was connected to and it automatically uses the proper cords? its also a component set so yea theres a separate tweeter. i also think the screw for the speaker mount is different than normal screws, so ill need to purchase a new screwdriver for it 

Swap the +/- at the amp or in your processor.

i do have time alignment, and i took measurements with a measuring tape but did not alter the setting on time alignment yet because im unhappy the sound quality, and i think that should be taken care of first, before altering the timing? or does maybe it doesnt matter what order i fix them in?

Time alignment is a factor in SQ.  A huge one.  If you are unsure it is right shut it off and see if things get better.  A measuring tape is horribly inaccurate and it will take some serious time to correct it.

edit: i also downloaded a free app to check the phasing on my phone for car speakers. plug in with aux cord and it sends pop noises and checks the phase. but it seems extremely inaccurate. its never consistent at all with either speaker.

That is pointless.  No reason to check as they all should NOT be the same anyways.  Just write down how they are now and start doing the testing I described above.  Until that is done, your “installation” is not done.

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Weird, wtf on the formatting.  Sorry for that, forum is acting weird on me....

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1 hour ago, ///M5 said:

Weird, wtf on the formatting.  Sorry for that, forum is acting weird on me....

all good, i read understood it. thanks

one quick question, when you say +/ - at the amp, what do you mean? and whats the processor? the headunit? and then if so you mean behind the headunit?

at the amp theres only RCA cables right? not sure what the + / - is?

Edited by Florida_Audio

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Look at your amp.  The speaker terminals will be labelled + and - if you switch them you change the phase at every frequency 180deg.  

I have no idea what you have so only you can answer that....or share everything you have and how it is set.  STOP reading, STOP typing and go figure out what exactly you have and how it is setup.  

 

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1 hour ago, ///M5 said:

Look at your amp.  The speaker terminals will be labelled + and - if you switch them you change the phase at every frequency 180deg.  

I have no idea what you have so only you can answer that....or share everything you have and how it is set.  STOP reading, STOP typing and go figure out what exactly you have and how it is setup.  

 

ok thanks. got huge exam on friday in organic chem. afterwards i shall make sure to do this!

thanks alot

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2 hours ago, ///M5 said:

Look at your amp.  The speaker terminals will be labelled + and - if you switch them you change the phase at every frequency 180deg.  

I have no idea what you have so only you can answer that....or share everything you have and how it is set.  STOP reading, STOP typing and go figure out what exactly you have and how it is setup.  

 

one more quick question...

when swapping the + and - speaker wires at the amplifier, the car will be off.

but would i need to disconnect the negative terminal of the car battery before messing with speaker wires at the amplifier?

and/or would i need to do anything else, such as disconnect the fuses on the amplifier or something?

just wondering if it can damage anything when swapping the speaker wires at the amplifier?

thanks

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It is always a good idea.  There should be zero voltage at the speaker terminals with the amp off.  Measure first if you don't pull the neg terminal

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1 hour ago, ///M5 said:

It is always a good idea.  There should be zero voltage at the speaker terminals with the amp off.  Measure first if you don't pull the neg terminal

heyyyy just took pictures of EVERYTHING... well pretty much. i can take more photos of speakers later if u need them, but i posted 2 in another thread that you saw, they were at a sort of bad angle.

give me 2 min to upload the photos here.

thanks again!

Edited by Florida_Audio

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some are duplicates just because different angles, and some are with flash, and some without, tried to be thorough. not sure what settings you want to know for the headunit? ive tried turning the headunit amp on/off and cant tell any difference in sound quality really. i normally keep the headunit amp on, so to power my rear factory speakers. although i can turn it off. i do have crossover options on the headunit, but im pretty sure they are off. and if they are not off its at default whatever they are.

i have a 2013 hyundai elantra coupe, by the way.

i have photos here of the amp, settings on amp, the speaker wires running into the amp, and the power wire and ground. and photos of the left mid woofer / tweeter, and right mid woofer / tweeter. the ground is like 1 foot away from the amp, attached to the trunk, is that a good spot?

also i looked at the speaker wires connected to the amp. as shown in pictures, it seems the red wires are both attached to the same sign. the red are attached to the + on both left and right speaker. and the black are attached to the - on both left and right speaker. but just because its attached properly on the amp, is it possible they are attached wrong on the speaker itself? so then swapping them at the amp for just one speaker might fix it, if its wired wrong at the speaker?

link to imgur site which has the gallery of the photos i took, some are duplicates there. should i repost the photos that are good here on this site? or is this link fine for you to view? thanks!

and let me know please if theres anything else i need to provide!

wow, not sure if its just me, but scrolling through those photos is a bit difficult, probably due to file size and loading them. maybe i should post just a few here to make it easier?

http://imgur.com/a/9rSZA

 

Edited by Florida_Audio

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okay thats all the pictures that i choose out of the first imgur link, to see them easier.

I should mention that Channel B on the amp should not be plugged into anything, as far as i know. i asked the installer to just hook up that second set of RCAs to the other 2 channels to allow for a subwoofer later on. and that is why it is set at LPF. im not exactly sure where the other end of the RCA is located, although i assume its under the mat of my trunk.

please let me know if theres anything else you need. thanks again!

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What about your headunit?  Pictures aren't necessary, but knowing the settings are.

Odd gain setting at "normal" and personally even without a sub I would have the mids on a HPF...bummer it doesn't go below 40Hz though so it may cut too much bass.  Depends on how well they are installed in the doors.

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1 hour ago, ///M5 said:

What about your headunit?  Pictures aren't necessary, but knowing the settings are.

Odd gain setting at "normal" and personally even without a sub I would have the mids on a HPF...bummer it doesn't go below 40Hz though so it may cut too much bass.  Depends on how well they are installed in the doors.

what do you mean by odd setting for the gain at normal?

i can set the front component speakers to HPF. and then should i change freq to 65? so 65 and up is played.

because my speakers are not rated for below 40 anyway? "Frequency Response: 65Hz - 29kHz"

the tweeter is now set at -6 db. while it does sound better, its weird, im able to raise the volume knob a few levels higher on headunit before it starts to sound harsh, but it also seems by changing the tweeter attenuation, it made even the midwoofer also lower it volume, or maybe not. -6b is lowest setting. the sibilance is still super harsh in the vocals. its extremely annoying and difficult to listen to any songs with vocals.

so by headunit settings, you are asking what is available to change? or what i have already changed?

because i cant stand to listen to it at default headunit settings with a flat EQ. extremely harsh sound still, even with tweeter attenuation, although it did make it a bit better. its weird, because it just hurts at mid to high level volumes. low volume, its slightly annoying, but who wants to barely hear their music? :[

i wonder if lowering the gain might help with the harshness?  cause i still do want to hear music at decent volume, but maybe even an L pad? not sure what an L pad does exactly, but i think it can still be added even though i have the tweeter crossover thing? not sure if it would help?

i looked at many reviews for the alpine SPR 60c before i bought them, and alot of people love them, and say the tweeters are bright/harsh. but they say to use the tweeter attenuation to fix it and it sounds good. but i still dont think it sounds good at all, just a bit better.

also my headunit is a alpine CDE-164bt, with 4v preouts

 

 

Edited by Florida_Audio

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