3-Way Active Which Midwoofers & Tweeters For My Application?

[TX98Z28 10]

Heres the list, I need to narrow it down to one mid woofer and one tweeter pair or maybe none of these at all. First let me go over some requirements and more about what I'm looking for. 

Seas Prestige ER18RNX 7" Reed/Paper Cone 45-3000Hz, 8 ohm (H1456-08) ($100 or so)

Seas Prestige CA18RNX 7" Paper Cone 45-3000Hz, 8 ohm (H1215-08) ($100 or so)

Seas Prestige L18RNX/P 7" Aluminum 40-2500Hz, 8 ohm (H1224-08) ($100 or so)

Seas Prestige CA18RLY 7" Paper Cone 35-3000Hz, 8 ohm (H1217-08) ($100 or so)

Seas Excel W18NX-001 7" Nextel Paper Cone 30-3000Hz, 8 ohm (E0042-08S) ($200 a pop)

Seas Excel W18E-001 7" Magnesium Cone 40-2500Hz, 8 ohm (E0018-08S) ($270 a pop ouch)

SB Acoustics SB17NRXC35-8, 6.5" Coated Paper Cone Woofer - 8 ohm ($78 a pop)

SB Acoustics SB17CRC35-08 7" Woven Carbon Fiber Woofer 8 ohm ($100 a pop)

Scan-Speak Revelator 18W/8531G-00 6.5" Paper Cone Woofer, 8 ohm ($230 a pop)

Scan-Speak  Illuminator’s Textile Dome D3004/6020-00, 4 ohm ($120 a pop)

Seas Prestige 27TFFN/G Textile Dome Tweeter with Grill 2.5-30khz (H1396-04) 4 ohm ($50 a pop)

My head unit is a CDA-9887, I'm going to be imprinting which Ive read a lot of info on. To my understanding when imprinting it will choose my crossover point for the subwoofer and midwoofer, this is automatically done and not controllable from what I've read. So with that said I've seen guys installs where it crossed their sub and mid @40Hz, I've seen 50Hz and even up to 80Hz. This clearly is a concern so the midwoofer needs to be able to play low which all the ones I listed can. Some say Imprint honors the crossover point for the midwoofer and tweeter so say well shoot for 2.5k-2.8k crossover for the tweeter selection.

Tweeter selection list is very small so far, honestly mostly due to depth of the tweeter and I haven't really found a lot that will fit for where I plan on putting them which is into the lower A-pillers by the front of the dash setup to fire in a crossed patten slightly up toward the windshield some what. This is so post to be the ultimate sweet spot for a 4th gen camaro according to some of the SQ guys with 4th gens, they say the staging and imaging is 99% as good as its going to get with not running active so with active and imprinting I will see how sounds to me…

The mid woofers will be mounted in the doors in the stock location which I believe would be infinite baffle, there is no room for an enclosure. Also a 7" will fit, the stock size was a 6.75". I could list more mid woofers especially from Scan-Speak but I think I have enough listed with a good range of prices throughout the list. I would love to know why the hell some of these cost so much more especially the Seas Excel line. I'm seeing basically all the midwoofers I'm finding have a QTS of around .3-.4, I'm guessing these will work but I cannot find any .7 or up midwoofers made specifically for an infinite baffle install. I'm assuming the QTS around .4 will be fine. I can post up the graphs if needed of each driver.

The subwoofer and everything else for the install is in my signature. The Xcon will be sealed! 

For my tastes in music I am a extreme "technical" metal head but also listen to classical, some rap, electronic. I especially like pink floyd…now thats SQ material.

The whole goal for this entire sound system is to reproduce music the way the artists recorded it. I am sure I will be doing multiple imprint runs. Hoping to get the drivers and their placement correct.

Thanks guys, lets get this list narrowed down   

    

 

[///M5 2,833]

I assume you mean 2 way with the 9887.

Forego the imprint, it is terrible.  

We need to work on the tweeter locations before shopping for the woofer or tweeter.  That could change everything.

[TX98Z28 10]

Heres the frequency response graphs. I'm still learning how to interpret these graphs fully. The Seas graphs confuse me as there is a line on them thats not on Scan-Speaks or SB's midwoofers graphs, I honestly don't know what it is or for. This is one of the reasons I need advice along with the other reasons I already stated, mainly due to imprint, but driver location needs to be correct for my listening environment as well. Last 2 graphs are the Scan-Speak tweeter and Revelator. And I just saw while on Seas website they carry a "high end Line" so they say of drivers specifically made for car audio hmm… 

Graphs fixed with correct names 

 

Seas Prestige CA18RLY 7" Paper Cone 35-3000Hz, 8 ohm

Seas Excel W18E-001 7" Magnesium Cone 40-2500Hz, 8 ohm

Seas Excel W18NX-001 7" Nextel Paper Cone 30-3000Hz, 8 ohm

SB Acoustics SB17NRXC35-8, 6.5" Coated Paper Cone Woofer - 8 ohm

SB Acoustics SB17CRC35-08 7" Woven Carbon Fiber Woofer 8 ohm

Seas Prestige ER18RNX 7" Reed/Paper Cone 45-3000Hz, 8 ohm

Seas Prestige L18RNX/P 7" Aluminum 40-2500Hz, 8 ohm

Seas Prestige CA18RNX 7" Paper Cone 45-3000Hz, 8 ohm

Seas Prestige 27TFFN/G Textile Dome Tweeter with Grill 2.5-30khz 4ohm

Scan-Speak  Illuminator’s Textile Dome D3004/6020-00, 4 ohm

Scan-Speak Revelator 18W/8531G-00 6.5" Paper Cone Woofer, 8 ohm

Edited November 10, 2016 by TX98Z28
Graphs posted wrong without names

[TX98Z28 10]

24 minutes ago, ///M5 said:

I assume you mean 2 way with the 9887.

Forego the imprint, it is terrible.  

We need to work on the tweeter locations before shopping for the woofer or tweeter.  That could change everything.

No, almost 100% certain it's 3 way. Says to use 2 way with components with passives. Let me check to be sure.

Interesting I've heard excellent results with imprint if done a certain way, not the way they say in the manual with the microphone positions all around the interior and other stuffs got to be tweaked her and there with the amps gain to trick the software as it's not that great, they should have left room to manually tune after each run. I read a 35 page review about it on another forum with all the pros and cons, what works, what failed. Some are happy with the results some hate it and say its complete garage zero hope.

I fully 100% agree on the tweeter location, I'm not drilling holes in factory a-pillar trim panels just yet.

[///M5 2,833]

2 way + sub is not a 3 way

I have over 90% of the miss you listed in my audio closet....but you NEED to focus on the system and not the mid.  Tweeter fitting and location first.

I've used imprint as well and my random guess based on the drivers sounded way better...

[TX98Z28 10]

2 minutes ago, ///M5 said:

2 way + sub is not a 3 way

I have over 90% of the miss you listed in my audio closet....but you NEED to focus on the system and not the mid.  Tweeter fitting and location first.

I've used imprint as well and my random guess based on the drivers sounded way better...

I'm confusing myself big time here. Alright so for my drivers I'm running a total of 5. 2 tweeter, 2 midwoofers, 1 subwoofer, this is called 2 way + sub from what your telling me. I feel like an idiot… What was getting me confused is the damn switch on the back of the 9887 it's self, theres 2.2ch(3Way) then 4.2ch(F/R/Sub-W). I'll be honest I was counting the 6 channels and assumed I would be using 3 way…makes sense now that I'm missing the 6th driver…I'm learning, got a lot on my mind with ripping the whole car apart for the restoration.

Regarding the tweeters, 4th gen camaros never came with them with a specific mounting location. Instead they had 6.75" coaxials in the doors with the tweeter ran to the factory amp separate form the 6.75" driver it's self.

I do have custom made tweeter pods that go where the side view mirrors would be but they face almost straight towards my chest head area…. it's another mounting location though. Also some have put there tweeters in the kick panels.

I'll look for some pictures to post up of guys installs to give a better idea of the space and interior environment I'm working with.

 

[TX98Z28 10]

Heres the link with the guy that prefers the a-pillar over the kick panels for 4th gens.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/stereo-electronics/439229-tweeter-mounting.html

Post 17 & 24 he explains why he put them there. 

[TX98Z28 10]

Heres another link ///M5 with convicting feedback on the lower A-pillar mounting location. Also shows the custom made tweeter pods some guys prefer to use for 4th gen camaros and firebirds. I have a pair but still don't really want them going there, mainly because it blocks the side defroster vents to the windows and they would aim way to close to my head chest area.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/stereo-electronics/506166-tweets-pillars-not-good.html

So it seems after doing some research the kick panels are looking promising for the mounting spot for the tweeters. I've noticed a lot of guys are putting them there, would be a lot closer to the midwoofer as well. 

[///M5 2,833]

Everything is a trade-off and no matter what you choose that will happen.  That car isn't super friendly for audio.

I'm 6'7" so kicks in that car would be terrible for me.  I can't say I love the pillar locations either.  Besides the geometry of the car the pillars also really restrict your tweeter choice.  Some of the goal of getting the tweeters high is to get them to play a bunch of the frequency spectra.  This means a big ballsy tweeter.  In your case, that either means spending dough on something like a Scan D2904 or using a large format tweeter.  Fitting the large format up there will take some custom work.

[TX98Z28 10]

Well ///M5 I have been doing a lot of reading and a lot of thinking over the past multiple days, and as you have already said my car truly isn't very friendly for audio.

The Scan-Speak D2904 Revelator you recommended is one hell of a tweeter just out of my budget at $277 a pop. I would love to run them, you clearly get what you pay for with those but finding a mounting location for them without glassing something up is not possible with the crammed cave interior environment I'm working with. I have officially ruled the kick panels out after sitting in the car with a panel put back in. I have to work the clutch pedal and the whole area down there is very crammed, my foot would either be hitting the tweeter(regardless of size) or covering the face of the tweeter up 95-100% of the time, honestly theres not even room for one there for my car.

I believe this is where they need to go http://ls1tech.com/forums/stereo-electronics/1173140-i-have-huge-tweeters-suggestions.html 

Post #8 shows the pictures. I would more than likely go with the Scan-Speak D3004/6020-00 for this location due to space requirements, and straight from Scan-Speak "The compact size is one of the key elements of these Illuminator tweeters, which provides a high degree of flexibility within design options. The small size is employed without compromising sound quality where these compact tweeters are fully comparable to the renowned full size Illuminator and Revelator tweeters, no matter if the music is played at high or low listening levels." 

I compared the two, clearly the D2904 Revelator you get what you pay for especially with the low mounting depth for such a quality tweeter. The D3004/6020 T/S parameters look promising for fitting what they did in such a small package.  

I have appreciated your help and feedback ///M5, looking forward to your thoughts on this mounting spot and the D3004/6020.   

 

  

[Notorious97200 339]

Tuned in.

How much power will you use on your mids and highs ?

 

I know I can improve my highs ! I currently use a Davis Acoustic silk tweeter, taken form an 8" coaxial speakers.

I like it, but I feel I can do better.

[///M5 2,833]

10 hours ago, TX98Z28 said:

Well ///M5 I have been doing a lot of reading and a lot of thinking over the past multiple days, and as you have already said my car truly isn't very friendly for audio.

The Scan-Speak D2904 Revelator you recommended is one hell of a tweeter just out of my budget at $277 a pop. I would love to run them, you clearly get what you pay for with those but finding a mounting location for them without glassing something up is not possible with the crammed cave interior environment I'm working with. I have officially ruled the kick panels out after sitting in the car with a panel put back in. I have to work the clutch pedal and the whole area down there is very crammed, my foot would either be hitting the tweeter(regardless of size) or covering the face of the tweeter up 95-100% of the time, honestly theres not even room for one there for my car.

I believe this is where they need to go http://ls1tech.com/forums/stereo-electronics/1173140-i-have-huge-tweeters-suggestions.html 

Post #8 shows the pictures. I would more than likely go with the Scan-Speak D3004/6020-00 for this location due to space requirements, and straight from Scan-Speak "The compact size is one of the key elements of these Illuminator tweeters, which provides a high degree of flexibility within design options. The small size is employed without compromising sound quality where these compact tweeters are fully comparable to the renowned full size Illuminator and Revelator tweeters, no matter if the music is played at high or low listening levels." 

I compared the two, clearly the D2904 Revelator you get what you pay for especially with the low mounting depth for such a quality tweeter. The D3004/6020 T/S parameters look promising for fitting what they did in such a small package.  

I have appreciated your help and feedback ///M5, looking forward to your thoughts on this mounting spot and the D3004/6020.   

 

  

You found the wrong D2904...but that is my fault, I forgot it was discontinued.  Was referring to the 6000 or 6001 version which is a small format tweeter.  Regrettably I have no experience first hand with the 3004, but expect it is probably fine.

That being said, it is still a really expensive tweeter...which makes me want to ask the question of whether you have run active before or not?  Reason being is that it is far from unusual in a first active installation to pop a tweeter.  I'd hate to see you pop a scan speak...

[TX98Z28 10]

10 hours ago, Notorious97200 said:

Tuned in.

How much power will you use on your mids and highs ?

 

I know I can improve my highs ! I currently use a Davis Acoustic silk tweeter, taken form an 8" coaxial speakers.

I like it, but I feel I can do better.

I honestly can't say yet. For the tweeters very low to start with, same with the midwoofers. The C1100.4 seems to be a beast so I'm not even worried about not having enough power. Gains will be set very conservative to start with.

Theres always room for improvement if you feel you need to do so with your tweeters. My tweeter budget is $300 a pair, I can't justify at this time spending more than that for small format tweeters.   

[TX98Z28 10]

8 hours ago, ///M5 said:

You found the wrong D2904...but that is my fault, I forgot it was discontinued.  Was referring to the 6000 or 6001 version which is a small format tweeter.  Regrettably I have no experience first hand with the 3004, but expect it is probably fine.

That being said, it is still a really expensive tweeter...which makes me want to ask the question of whether you have run active before or not?  Reason being is that it is far from unusual in a first active installation to pop a tweeter.  I'd hate to see you pop a scan speak...

I found the D2904 alright……I was comparing it to other large format tweeters and for the size (mainly the mounting depth) it was feasible compared to the other large formats that were clearly huge depth wise. I assumed thats why it was so insanely priced ,way out of my budget though and well the wrong D2904, but a good read on them.

The D3004/6020 looks very close T/S wise to the D2904/600000 and D2904/600001. Scan-Speak also has the D3004/6020 in their automotive line D3004/602006, it's silver and black instead of all black face/surround/grill, exact same T/S parameters.

I have never ran active ever. Iv'e had the CDA-9887 since 2008 and just ran my junk stock drivers off it. I had no idea back then what I had bought or what it was capable of tuning wise, should be good for a first active system learning wise. With that said no I do not want to blow these Scan-Speak tweeters…I absolutely agree not cheap to replace!

Is it a common rookie mistake to just set the amplifier crossover switch to full and forget to set the high pass in the 9887 itself or to much power, way to low crossover point? I did read something about soldering a capacitor to the tweeter at 2x the Fs to prevent them from well… destruction, I read this would effect phase also if done. If I'm missing something here feel free to set me straight.  

[///M5 2,833]

The d2904 is a small format tweeter if you find the 6000/6001 which is what I was referring to.

It isn't only full range that can kill a tweet..  Lots of knobs to turn, better to do it with disposable shit first.

[TX98Z28 10]

12 hours ago, ///M5 said:

The d2904 is a small format tweeter if you find the 6000/6001 which is what I was referring to.

It isn't only full range that can kill a tweet..  Lots of knobs to turn, better to do it with disposable shit first.

I already found both of them they were Scan-Speaks Classic line of drivers, they are close to the D3004/6020, should preform well. I wonder why they discontinued them, they look very nice T/S wise and their graphs looked promising.

Buying cheap ones isn't a problem for testing, setting gains, etc. Your right better to fry those than the Scan-Speaks.

 

Edited November 18, 2016 by TX98Z28
Spelling

[Notorious97200 339]

$300 for a pair of tweeters ? That is too much for me now ! I'd rather play with some "cheap" ones first.

Someday I may spend that on a pair. But I have work to do before, as I have no deadening yet in the car !

 

 

[jcarter1885 995]

Look at this for sale thread, you could get 3 nice tweeters for 100 bucks. That way you will have a spare in case one blows while learning the active process.

 

Edited November 21, 2016 by jcarter1885

[///M5 2,833]

And he is a good seller btw

[TX98Z28 10]

10 hours ago, Notorious97200 said:

$300 for a pair of tweeters ? That is too much for me now ! I'd rather play with some "cheap" ones first.

Someday I may spend that on a pair. But I have work to do before, as I have no deadening yet in the car !

 

 

$300 was the absolute max I would spend on a pair of the small formats. I'll find and buy some super cheap ones to use to see if I make a mistake resulting in well failure. I'm still looking to buy the Scan-Speak D3004/6020 for the tweeters for this build. I can't find the ones anywhere that ///M5 recommended as they are discontinued (sometimes you get lucky and can find them still). I'll use the D3004/6020 after I feel confident everything is setup correctly for them.

How do you like your Seas Prestige ER18 midwoofers for your setup? Curious what you have them crossed over at, mid bass, etc.   

[TX98Z28 10]

1 hour ago, jcarter1885 said:

Look at this for sale thread, you could get 3 nice tweeters for 100 bucks. That way you will have a spare in case one blows.

 

I believe those are large formats the mounting depth is way out of the question for my camaro. No place to put them without serious glassing work. A good deal though, might pick them up, I still need to build some cabinets for my Pioneer SX-737, but thats a whole different project.

[///M5 2,833]

The Seas Neo is acceptable as well, not ideal by any means.  If you wait long enough there is a new option coming that won't set you back so much as well.

[Notorious97200 339]

15 hours ago, TX98Z28 said:

$300 was the absolute max I would spend on a pair of the small formats. I'll find and buy some super cheap ones to use to see if I make a mistake resulting in well failure. I'm still looking to buy the Scan-Speak D3004/6020 for the tweeters for this build. I can't find the ones anywhere that ///M5 recommended as they are discontinued (sometimes you get lucky and can find them still). I'll use the D3004/6020 after I feel confident everything is setup correctly for them.

How do you like your Seas Prestige ER18 midwoofers for your setup? Curious what you have them crossed over at, mid bass, etc.   

I am very happy with those ER18 : they are "punchy", and soft at the same time !!! They don't scream like a lot of speakers I can listen to in local installs.

They play much better after some playtime.

HPF : at 70 Hz and LPF at 3300 Hz but I don't remember the slopes I used on the mini-dsp. I've tried 3800, 3500, 3300 Hz...still going down.

 

BUUUT I think I blew the tweeters sunday night. After 30 minutes or more playing full tilt, some bad recorded reggae music mixtape, I realized I had no more tweeters playing, they were quite silent on the highs.

 

I'll have to investigate, wednesday afternoon. If they're really dead I will use my Focal tweeters, until I get another pair I want.

 

[jcarter1885 995]

My fault, I forgot you said no large formats. Well the other two pair of 6.5" speaker and tweeter combos he offers are great to start with to get your feet wet.

Edited November 21, 2016 by jcarter1885

[TX98Z28 10]

On November 20, 2016 at 8:22 PM, ///M5 said:

The Seas Neo is acceptable as well, not ideal by any means.  If you wait long enough there is a new option coming that won't set you back so much as well.

I'm curious about the new option. Also would like to say the list at the top should be the Seas Prestige 27TFFNC/G that I believe you are referring to and not the 27TFFN/G that doesn't even exist, my mistake.

Honestly I don't have very many options for my sizing requirements, mounting depth being the main concern. Wish the Seas Lotus RT25A was still made heard very positive things about it( mounting depth a possible problem though)  or the Scan D2904/6000 or 6001.

I did find these two though Seas Lotus Performance PT 27F L0005-06S and the Seas Lotus Reference RT 27F L0004-06S, just throwing them out there into the equation.

Iv'e come to the conclusion that I will have to pick something and see how it sounds to me. Hopefully won't have to EQ as much with a higher end driver and proper location but no driver is perfect so Equalizing them will occur.