Advice to get more mid bass up front

[Xrc6 0]

I still can't quite get my subs to sound more up front. My fronts just lack any kind of punch though they seem to be able to handle bass if I toy with boost or loud modes but they don't really have that punch that some OEM speakers without any amp have. I'm sure you know what I mean, like the mid bass region isn't tight despite the door is all sealed up and I use time alignment.

Here is what I have and what I have done.

• Pioneer avx-3700bh
• JL Audio C5 component speakers up front. woofer is in door and tweeter is up far corner of dash where default tweeters were.
• JL Audio XD 3 channel amp
• Silver cladded OFC RCA wires and Knuconceptz power
• JL Audio w3v3 soon to be replaced with two 12's.

So far I have purchased proper door mounting plate and foam rings that go between the speaker and the outer door panel. I have sealed up the entire door with Fatmat sound deadner...neither didn't really seem to do much. My HU has time alignment and 13 band EQ. Time alignment is set to proper distances from the speakers to my head. Everything actually sounds really good except that I can tell that the bass is behind me. Rear speakers not in use btw.

I have been considering something like the Audio Control EQS 6 channel to give me more control over the frequencies..would this help or is it just the speakers?  The sub sounds best out of phase but I can still tell where it's coming from. My amp has Xover over lapped with the sub at 80hz and fronts at 60hz...changing this really doesn't seem to be very noticeable, it actually sounds better with the subwoofer crossed at 60hz but obviously my fronts can't go that deep, I doubt much is happening under 100 hz on the fronts but they don't distort if I use bass boost but just sound boomy

[///M5 2,833]

Install will do more good than new equipment I bet.

Let us know how you made all your settings choices and share pics of the door treatment.

I am particularly curious how you chose what phase for which driver and how it sounds with the subs off.

[Xrc6 0]

I don't really want to take the panel off just to show a pic, not sure what you expect to see since the entire door is sealed up using Fatmat with just the mounting clip holes exposed so that the panel clips can go in. It's done the same way all proper installs are done except the fact that I probably put more sound damping on the door than most typically do and I did not make my own spacer and foam rings, I bought them aftermarket and I used 14 gauge OFC speaker wire, gold terminals, heat shrink around the ends and contact grease to ensure full contact on all contact points. This is far from my first rodeo but rather it's the first time I've ever had time alignment and ever tried to delocalize my subs. The install itself is top shelf without going so far as to modify door panels, things like that.

As far as how it sounds, I thought I already explained that. if I try to boost the mid bass regions like 80hz, 100hz or 120hz, the mid bass can sound boomy like there is high group delay ...in other words it's not resonating with the chest cavity, it's not tight and you can't feel that little kick like you can with some OEM systems I've experienced.

With subs off, it sounds like there is no sub bass. Not sure what your asking. phasing is just part of tuning a system. I don't have an expensive processor to completely tune it of course so I'm working with what I have. Like I said before, it all sounds really good except that I can tell where the bass is coming from...not sure I can be any more clear than that.

I have a measurement of my vehicle as you can see here, there is a sharp drop off at 70hz and I tried to fix that using boost at 80hz which is as close on my EQ I can get but noticed no difference that seemed significant to me anyway.

[///M5 2,833]

The steps you went through in the tuning process and what you learned about your setup is what we need.  There are no "tricks" only adjustments.  

[Randal Johnson 544]

What type of vehicle do you have ???

How is your sub bass enclosure built / mounted ???

My Kenwood 9980 has a time align setting for the sub stage similar to the front stage. Does your head unit have anything like that ???

[Xrc6 0]

14 hours ago, ///M5 said:

The steps you went through in the tuning process and what you learned about your setup is what we need.  There are no "tricks" only adjustments.  

Well that would be a lengthy post. I'll try to be very short and keep in mind since I don't have a processor like some do, I'm more limited in what I can tune.

 I always start with the fronts alone. Set amp gain to my music's -12db's (I normalize my music in audio editing so there is less discrepancy between albums allowing me to make better use of the wattage since 0db tracks would yield far different output than -9db tracks for example. Then I adjust dynamics...etc all in batch audio editing. This way my gain is more fully utilized across my entire collection.)

I then adjust crossover to a basic 80hz or 100hz overlap and readjust it later after I turn my subwoofer on. I move to EQ which for the HU is 13 band. I start flat and will readjust to match my vehicles acoustics as close as it'll allow later. I then move to the Time alignment, I first allow the HU and microphone to automatically do it, then I manually tweak it using a measuring tape and comparing differences using my ears to well known music. Once I get the front stage high enough to where it's all coming from head level in front of me. Then I'll toy with phasing some more and adjust my EQ cutting where necessary and comparing with my ears and my RTA...once I get the RTA pretty flat I'll adjust the EQ some more.

I then bring in my subwoofer, readjust crossover if necessary and been trying to bring it up front. I have toyed with everything listed yet again with mediocre results. Here is when I played with boosting mid bass levels up front but again it just sounds boomy and really does nothing to bring the sub 50hz bass up to the front stage. I've done experiements with other features on my HU like Loudness, phases for each speaker, even volume normalizing....I can get it to where it all sounds really crisp, clear and tight punch from subwoofer but again I just can't seem to delocalize the bass, it still sounds behind me. I have also used other source material such as CD and radio along with test sweeps and pink noise when tuning. Of course I do adjust sub output so it's not too pronounced and try to make it where it still sounds good without losing presence...and that may be a problem with wattage at a given volume.

However you mention hardware is not important. I disagree since for example using something like $20 Boss coaxials is not going to be very good for SQ so I don't understand your meaning there. Time alignment again is important for staging and full band EQ would be important for discrepancies in vehicle acoustics....perhaps you can clarify your meaning.

 

13 hours ago, Randal Johnson said:

What type of vehicle do you have ???

How is your sub bass enclosure built / mounted ???

My Kenwood 9980 has a time align setting for the sub stage similar to the front stage. Does your head unit have anything like that ???

As noted in my previous acoustic graph, it's a Honda Fit which is a hatchback. facing the sub to the side, up, back or to front doesn't make any noticeable changes at all. Probably because it's a hatch and pretty open, flat area throughout the entire cab.

Yes HU has full time alignment. The subwoofer is adjusted for the distance but no amount of delay seems to bring the sub up front...I can always tell it's coming from the back. Now today I did swap subwoofers to an Earthquake which is better at the deeper frequencies (louder) using same size sealed enclosure and according to Bassbox Pro, this box yields a flatter response than my W3v3 sub...I think that did help delocalize it better since the lowest frequencies were louder than the 50-80hz unlike the W3...but my new theory is that perhaps the issue is the entire cab itself...it's a hatch and very rectangular like inside, this might have some issue in localization. OR it could be a power issue, even though I only ever listen at only half volume when driving, my fronts (75 watts) may not have enough headroom for mid bass? and perhaps why it sounds pronounced and sloppy if I boost those frequencies?

Edited February 12, 2017 by Xrc6

[///M5 2,833]

Settings and setup I was referring to was what you changed/can change.  I am not familiar with your headunit and didn't go look up what it has.  (outside of the t/a and 13 band you referenced)

Phase was particularly important as playing with how the mids are phased to each other (with the subs) off can paint a picture.  99.9% of people that ask the question you did haven't ever changed theirs and expect a new "X" to solve the concern.    Also what settings you've had to eq to solve anomalies in your system.

Midbass won't be solved by an EQ.  If the install is "perfect" then either drivers or crossover changes or both will net more of a difference than an eq.

[Xrc6 0]

 

On 2/12/2017 at 4:26 PM, ///M5 said:

Settings and setup I was referring to was what you changed/can change.  I am not familiar with your headunit and didn't go look up what it has.  (outside of the t/a and 13 band you referenced)

Phase was particularly important as playing with how the mids are phased to each other (with the subs) off can paint a picture.  99.9% of people that ask the question you did haven't ever changed theirs and expect a new "X" to solve the concern.    Also what settings you've had to eq to solve anomalies in your system.

Midbass won't be solved by an EQ.  If the install is "perfect" then either drivers or crossover changes or both will net more of a difference than an eq.

I already mentioned what I changed as well as toyed with which is what my HU has. I already have the phase angles lined up, I mentioned I did the phasing in the last post. Again I have the crossover overlapped at 80hz, I toyed with all the variations and EQ was to flatten it all out as best I can but that EQ controls both sub and fronts. At least I never knew of a HU that offered seperate EQ for each output.

No disrespect but your post sounds like you're giving me the run around while going nowhere other than you now mention about getting new drivers. The C5's weren't the cheapest on the market but what model from what brand would you recommend that would offer better mid bass while maintaining the same good sound quality throughout the rest of the spectrum? Again they do sound really good but just lack the mid bass to blend in with the sub or to say that the sub 50-80hz is too loud/over bearing to de-localize

You can see my cabin gain graph. That's why I thought more frequency control individually between the mid and subs from something like that Audiocontrol would allow me to flatten out the severe slopes between the 2 better...if the 80 hz is way too loud from my subwoofer while my mid bass at 80hz is too low and my HU EQ is controlling both, then wouldn't I need to seperate the EQ between the 2?

As I see it since I already did everything I'm supposed to with what I have... less you can explain something I missed, then the mid bass from both mid and sub need to better align so my sub is not so loud at the upper frequencies. I'm assuming that's why I can localize it...or I need to gain those frequencies from the mids. But you're telling me the Audiocontrol won't do any good but if I have the same issue with the next components then I'm not achieving anything so what component set would you recommend?...I mean the C5's are like $500 retail so I'm a little Leary to spend that much or more for another set without some reason as to why the JL's are not cutting it...like do they have too high of an FS? I don't think the specs mentioned but JL usually does good with their T/S in regards to SQ.

[///M5 2,833]

The difficulty here is that the install can make a turd of a component sound better than the C5's.  We understand that you have put in the effort to install them as you see fit, but normally gains are found in that process.  Without knowing what you learned and how you set things up it is hard to make that judgement call.  Let's assume you are right and your install is perfect.  That would make you the absolute first person that has come onto the board that asked about improving midbass that didn't have huge gains possible in the install.

Let's put optimism in the case here and assume the install is perfect.  To fix it then we need to understand what you are defining as midbass.  Once we know that we can offer solutions.

[///M5 2,833]

13 hours ago, Xrc6 said:

if the 80 hz is way too loud from my subwoofer while my mid bass at 80hz is too low and my HU EQ is controlling both, then wouldn't I need to seperate the EQ between the 2?

Can we assume you've turned the sub down to see how that works.  Would be step one.