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j-roadtatts

Help choosing tweeters and with installation please.

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I destroyed my tweeters and need help choosing on a replacement. I can see some of my ignorance on the install also, such as poor aiming. So I am hoping to learn the rest of the tricks to installing tweeters. 

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The tweeters are Seas 27tffnc/g. They sounded very clean and sterile, and I cant say I ever had a complaint with them. I feel what i was lacking was more due install perhaps. That and my listening style. I do 90% of my listening on the highway with the window down. Thats NOT going to change. I don't do demo's and rarely even have someone in the car with me.

As far as what was lacking. I could never quite get the vocals to sound "full" or "natural".  Perhaps I need a tweeter that will dig deeper? Or just one that is "brighter" up high? Is that the trade of with tweerers????? Of course i could solve all this with a better DSP,  but would like to KISS. Other ignorance would possibly be poor xover and phase settings, which I realize I will have to conquer with my own ear.

I am considering a metal dome tweeter as a replacement mostly due to my listening style of driving 80 with the windows down. I would think it will "slice" through the air better. That and I can get ones that fit my current pods. I'm not opposed to redoing the pods if it gets me what I want though.

Thanks in advance for your contribution to this topic.

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My memory sucks.  What mids are they blending with?  Perhaps even more important how high can said mids play nicely in your install?

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The aiming doesn't look bad to me, but it's hard to say without actually sitting in the vehicle.  Where are you crossing and what midbass driver are you using?  What amp? 

Based on your post, I'm guessing you fried those tweeters by pushing them too hard to overcome road noise.  A higher crossover point can help with power handling.  If you need more volume from the tweeter, you may have look at other options.  One option would be use multiple tweeters, kinda like a line array.  IIRC, with a dual tweeter set-up you want to LP one of the tweeters at ~8khz to avoid comb filtering.  Maybe a large format tweeter that can handle more power.     

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I am running the Seas u18rnx/p mid and Alpine F600 amplifier,  which pushes 100 Watts @4ohms.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/seas-woofers-6-7/seas-prestige-u18rnx/p-h1571-7-curv-cone-woofer/

 I have the gain set about halfway and was using the individual speaker level controls on the head unit.  I have the mids crossed at 2500 with a 12db slope,  and the highs at 3200 with a 12db slope. 

 To answer your question Sean they would play higher if I could EQ them individually.  As I have been running without tweets for about six months now,  and have the mids sounding pretty damn good without tweets.  Only because I can manipulate the top end of the mid without the tweeter in my way, with the crossover and eq. This is why I think at this point a metal dome will add the "sparkle" and not much else. Dont know that I need the tweeter to  have a "full body" or "warm" sound.

 All that said I definitely use things to their limits.  No big deal as I am willing to learn from my mistakes.  If the answer is as simple as don't be so hard on them that is what I will except. 

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I am curious if you thermally destroyed them or mechanically.  Thermally is compensation for wind, mechanically crossover point/slope.  My guess is thermal matching Jimi's but of course I can't be 100% sure.  What would help this is if you could fit a larger tweeter.  That Seas while fine as a neo just isn't stellar (but when you got them it isn't like there were other good choices unless you wanted to spend D2904 type dough).  Of course that would take more space.  What I don't know is how the Evil is on power handling.  My guess is that it should be better than that Seas all the way around but if you rapidly destroyed those having some more headroom wouldn't be terrible.

I am not sure metal buys you anything.  Sure some top end sparkle, but you are probably really striving to have more on the bottom than on the top.  The top rarely causes either thermal or mechanical concerns...

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I'm not rapidly destroying them. More likely a case of listening to just the right song to loud after my ears are desensitized from long listening or getting to crazy "that one night" type thing.  

The Seas tweeters were given to me, so that was the reason for using them. I don't know that i need a large format per say, BUT really don't know what i'm missing out on? Is it going to be one of those "OMG I will never run anything else!!!!!" religious experiences? Or just cool!.. that was easy to tune. This is an SQ build with sealed subs and sounds very accurate. If it will benefit that cause and how, is what I am asking?

SO I understand your saying a large format has a better thermal handling, more headroom, and more gusto to give all around.  More detail perhaps? Is that the long and short of that? I could see that being more divine than just another 1" car tweet.

 

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Okay, I looked up some large formats and think I answered my own questions. Some of them look like a speaker magnet attached to a tweeter cone!! Like a motorcycle with a V8. That should be able to swat some air out of the way at highway speeds.

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/scanspeak-soft-dome-tweeters/scanspeak-discovery-d2604/833000-1-dome-tweeter/

 They all have a low fs. and good power handling, So what am I looking for? Just personal taste past that?

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Honestly, I'd run a full range driver or. . . .   How open are you to making new pods?

 

I've used and recommended them MANY times because of their awesome versatility and ease at manipulation, the Bohlender Graebener Neo planars  I've used both the Neo3 and Neo8s and damped the rear to tailor them to the needs of each application.  The Neo8 is kinda large, but it can dig down to 1200Hz and stay composed all the way through audible range.  There's just nothing like planars or ribbons for me, and I try to incorporate them into every install.

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Out of all people to not guess what mids you were running, lol.  Forgot you said you bought 2 pairs.  

The main reason for the large format is Fs and power handling.  Plus you have a shit load of choices instead of a few, but as Ryan hinted they are nearly as large as a full ranger and aren't blessed with the aim on axis and tune away simplicity.

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A little off-topic, but I was searching CSS for their full rangers as I remember them being very good.  Apparently CSS has been bought out and the first thing on their new page is explaining that they have to raise prices.  Ironic.

 

Anyways, I've read fabulous things about Markaudio full rangers.

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 I ran full rangers on axis, in dashpods, in the last car for 5+ years. (Fostex ff85)  we all basically had this same conversation then, and I switched from tweets to full rangers. 

I feel I need to back track at this point, to find the answer to what I'm asking. SO Please bear with me, as it was a while since I actually had the tweets playing.

I've had tweeters in a few cars. The one that sounded great to me had the tweeters on axis. The last car I moved them around but never aimed them. (A-pillar, then top of door, top of door sounded decent) This car I would say the the driver tweeter is at probably 60 degrees of axis and the passenger is on axis. 

With this car and the one before I could move my head to directly in line with the tweeters (not center, just inline) and they sounded great. 

I feel I destroyed these tweeters by trying to get the driver side tweet to sound good. Looking back I was continually changing the settings trying to get a natural sound,  and most likely overdrove them with a poor setting at one time during that phase.

 So here's where I'm at today.  I did some test driving yesterday,  to gauge road noise and the wind factor.  The road noise is very low on this car and the wind does not really blow into the car.  There is definitely no wind force on the dash near the tweeters.  The wind and road noise is low enough I can hear the mids clear as day even at low to moderate volumes.  I have the mids tuned to where there is no need for a tweeter at low and moderate listening levels. The soundstage is up high and the vocals are clear, with JUST the mids.  Unfortunately they get very shrilly at high volume. 

 So my question lies in tweeter aiming and how critical is it.  I see most people say they just aim for the domelight,  which I see would probably net me roughly 15°  Off axis from both tweeters to the listening position.  Is there a reason why not to aim tweeters on axis? 

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I've never had a set sound good on axis in a car.  Between the greatly different path lengths and reflective surfaces a bit of an off axis response usually wins.

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 I know there is no replacement for displacement. (Sd).  I feel I was lacking clarity and detail, not output. 

 So I feel my problem is more of a mismatch frequency response,  due to poor aiming. That and/or a lack of turning ability,  due to the limited processor I have  not being able to adjust individually for mismatched aiming. Possibly a bad phase setting didn't help either.  Lastly not the most stellar tweeter to start with. I think all other control points seem good.

I would really like to get one car to sound stellar with tweeters, even if I never run again after that.  That was the goal with this car when I started and I'm sticking to it. For the learning process if nothing else.

My next two questions:

do my assumptions on what control points need to change sound correct?

what physical attributes does an 8ohm tweet have over a 4ohm, or vice versa? Bigger coil, etc?  What are the small trade-offs between the two? 

 I'm not asking you guys to spoon feed me.   Just feel this is the quickest way to get the simple answers I need.

 

 

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 I will add I preemptively gave a guy with really wicked freaky good ears, a set of the mids in anticipation of this day.  In hopes that he would know exactly what I am hearing from the mids, and be able to guide me through my questions with the highs.  It seemed like a smart way to learn at the time,  we will see if my logic has sound. Lol

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What you forgot is that said guy has a set of ridiculously ballsy but expensive small format tweeters.

My only concern with anything in response to your needs is that your listening habits are at much higher levels than mine.  Of course I drove home tonight after dropping off a colleague at near full tilt....

 

 

...listening to 2 acoustic guitarists

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Was there anything you didn't like about the tweeters you had?

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1 hour ago, ///M5 said:

What you forgot is that said guy has a set of ridiculously ballsy but expensive small format tweeters.

My only concern with anything in response to your needs is that your listening habits are at much higher levels than mine.  Of course I drove home tonight after dropping off a colleague at near full tilt....

 

 

...listening to 2 acoustic guitarists

Do you mind posting a pic of your tweeters installed?

would you of bought the same tweeters if you didn't already have them?

Ive really been loving jamming the live music lately!

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1 hour ago, ///M5 said:

Was there anything you didn't like about the tweeters you had?

No, not really. A little too smooth and sterile if anything. Not crisp.

Possibly Lacking down low. Since the vocals are where they lacked most.

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Smooth and sterile screams flat to me.   Could you possibly just need some EQ?  Of course, that might just compound the issue and strain the driver even more.   

I have something you can try that is a compromise between a larger format and a smaller tweet if you're interested.

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 If I had to guess, the overall FR was lacking most right around the 2Khz-2.5khz range. (Xover point) Yes strained the driver trying to eq.

 I feel the solution is get a tweeter with a super low Fs,  and build new pods with better aiming. 

 I'm pretty sure I know the answers to all my questions and I'm just being a hardheaded fuck. sorry guys.

 What you got to concider Ryan?!

 

 

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11 hours ago, ///M5 said:

What you forgot is that said guy has a set of ridiculously ballsy but expensive small format tweeters.

My only concern with anything in response to your needs is that your listening habits are at much higher levels than mine.  Of course I drove home tonight after dropping off a colleague at near full tilt....

 

 

...listening to 2 acoustic guitarists

 

Which 2 acoustic guitarists, I know a few acoustic duo groups....

 

Brother, my sampling of drivers is pretty small in comparison to the others commenting so I’ve been watching and reading but I think the logic in finding a ballsy low Fs tweeter sounds like a viable solution. I sure wish I could tell you about the Evil 1’s but I am unfortunately awaiting word on another aspect of my build before I can/will install the rest of it. They’ve got an awesome low Fs and it seems like everyone has really liked them so far. 

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Please forgive me if I seem vague. It's been over 6 months since I heard them, and I admit my lack of experience with a multitude of tweeters to compare them to. 

The fact that I can get my the vocals to sound great from the mids without tweeters speaks scores to me. 

Being this is my "learning experience with tweeters" car, it looks like the awnser is in the question. Buy a few sets and play them back to back!

 

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Think it is simpler.  Good tuning makes a worse driver sound better.  Only question is then how large of a driver can you "easily" fit

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8 hours ago, ///M5 said:

Think it is simpler.  Good tuning makes a worse driver sound better.  Only question is then how large of a driver can you "easily" fit

Yaeh bingo right^^^.  Yes feel a dsp with ability to eq separate would be next inline.

I can fit up to a 4.5" diameter. 

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1 hour ago, j-roadtatts said:

Yaeh bingo right^^^.  Yes feel a dsp with ability to eq separate would be next inline.

I can fit up to a 4.5" diameter. 

I’ve played with several DSP’s now and if you decide to go that route I think that next to the smaller miniDSP offerings the best overall one I’ve used for the money is the JL TWK88. That’s just my opinion though. 

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