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Chad L

Saab 900 system

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Do you have vids of this baby in action ?

Edited by ManzKea

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I’m having difficulty posting pictures with the 4mb limit don’t see how to post videos unless it’s a link to another site. I’m finding pics are failing to load also. Maybe I’m over the limit. I got this to load. It’s one of the rear panels with a 6 3/4 component and 5 3/4 coax mounted before installing. Saab never had speakers in this location and I have not seen any one try this. It’s actually where the arm rest is so it steps in making it look like you couldn’t but there was just enough room. Lower there is metal behind that would need cutting and this is higher. It was also nice getting the separate tweeter up on the side with the coax facing in. 

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Shows mounting on panels. I did add sound damper inside 

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21 hours ago, Chad L said:

With the beginner guide to this forum to conduct I didn’t expect to be trolled but I can handle it. I do feel sad for you. The purpose is to have something interesting or informative. Any posts like that won’t work without a good explanation shows as trolling. If that makes you special enjoy trolling your easy to mute. The system is truly awesome. A monster and audiophile worthy. Is it the best? No. Can it be better? Always. Show better. 

49AD39BA-7156-4469-A45E-D0B13F2FE183.jpeg

Ok, this is where I have to step in.  You are not being trolled.  You have some tremendously experienced and knowledgeable people in this specific concentration, some even more so than me, and I own SSA, so that should say a great deal.  SSA is simply one of the longest running audio forums period.  It is still active and full of tremendous info because it DOES NOT allow trolls and is staffed with top tier people. Physicists, engineers, sound quality competitors, brand owners, car audio fabricators, SPL competitors, the list goes on.  There is no better audio forum staff simply based on merit alone, I would know, I am on all of them and a staff member on most.  So I would highly suggest you take a moment and read what is being added to your topic and understand what they are saying to help you with your system.  They don't have to do this, they are taking time because they love car audio and you asked a question.

 

All that being said, let's start from the beginning.  Keeping it simple is usually the best method if you are going for clarity and performance.  When you start introducing so many speakers into a single system, and so many components into a single system, you're headed for issues can complication that you can't just EQ out.  Too much in the pipe line can cause issues with the signal to the amplifiers and too many different speakers can cause cancellation and wild reflections, this is not trolling, this is simple fact of acoustics, especially in an enclosed chamber like a car.  So please take a moment and consider the advice some very talented and experienced members and staff have taken the time to offer, before you instantly discount it.  Now in the end, all that matters is that you are happy with the end result, but you'll increase your rate of success if you take some of the advice being offered here.

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Thanks for taking the time to post. I can honestly say the comments were taken as insulting and not supported with any articles or links. I’m open to constructive criticism presented where I can’t see the constructive. I’ll ask for more clarity next time instead af guessing I’m being hazed. 

The post is about Saab 900 stereo or audio. Saab tried to present itself as a high end audio system with Clarion head unit equalizers auxiliary amps and trunk CD players. The only speaker options are 4” front and 4x10 rear that are not well baffled or enclosed. Not too bad with a small amp and sub driven off the speakers but if you want more nothing will say it fits that vehicle  

Almost anything has to be custom installed and the Saab has hidden ability to be upgraded. One of the amazing things I did was make the front dash take 5 3/4 component speakers that looked factory like driven by an amp off the Clarion head unit I installed keeping the car with the original brand. With a small sub in the back sounds pretty good. Comments at the time were it sounds better than the Bose system in my infinity. 

I learned very quickly about phase because one amp was Bluetooth and sometimes would not sync and bass was better until I swapped phase. It really was a nice enjoyable system. 

For home audio I like Martin Logan. I find the electrostatic folded tweeter to be jaw dropping in compared to any speaker. I tried it in the Saab and got amazing results and a cool install using Home theatre brackets. It’s on it’s own amp properly sized that if I want I can run on Bluetooth alone. 

4x10 are hard to find the Pioneers I had were maybe better than the Kicker I got now but altering the car for something else would be limited to a 4” or two 4” maybe 3 but I decided to put speakers on the back dash instead. Since the hatch may not be a great baffle I built very cool and attractive enclosures with wood bowls. 

Staying with the I never saw that done in a Saab before I installed speakers in the back seat. This is the only Saab 900 I know where someone tried that and it’s so smart I’m surprised the factory never did that. Again all these locations are common on modern cars. 

Even door speakers are very common but not on the Saab. I’ve seen many attempts to install a speaker in the panel of a Saab 900 but none as impressive or effective as I did simple as it is. 

I worked with a guy who used to be into car audio and had won best in Show with his truck. He showed me videos and pictures from competitions. He encouraged me to install a bigger alternator ground wire and main wire my voltage went from 12 to almost 14. 

He also said where I installed one speaker the pros install 4. I took the rear panels out and squeezed in another driver. Sounded better. 

When I did the doors I had not planned on going 4 drivers per door but the installation allowed it  i used an existing pocket I actually added one pair at a time and it kept sounding better. If I had done the doors first I may not have installed any other speakers they rock the house there are times I think the sub is on when it is not. 

As far a balance goes the two speakers in the front dash are amazing and difficult to balance out to the rest of the car. Fader will do it but it always sounds better with zero fade. Adjusting gains works better and loading up the rear. 

I remeber back in 1978 a BMW with something like 10 4” Blaupunk speakers on the back dash. It sounded pretty good they were trying to re invent back then. The system that was the best however was two Klipsh 12” Hereshy Driver’s with an original Fosgate amp. 

The Saab is partially re creating those two systems in one car with modern features. 

The sound is continually improving. It was always nice before and hard to imagine it could sound better but it does. 

I see lots of SUV’s station wagons trucks and cars wit trunks putting advanced systems in them but few hatch backs and fewer Saab’s where I managed to maintain room for passengers and luggage. 

For being a car that can’t accept most systems it lended itself nicely. Will it win at a show? Wasn’t built for that but it’s loud clear clean with big subs and amps. 

Comments are welcome but please be respectful. 

Thanks. 

7CF0FEB3-8905-4242-BDBE-3CEBE859A4AF.jpeg

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Saab doors before speakers. Instead of cutting into the panel I removed a cover to a pocket then bulit a baffle. There is no space between the seat and the doors it’s a miracle the doors closes fine

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Same door with two coax and two component different sizes was to save space and money. Also tried just component speakers first and decided to install more speakers instead of a window to crossovers

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You could of ran 4 components in the front doors without the crossovers, doing an active setup instead of passive. A different enclosure could help your sub output and performance as well.

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Still could it’s a small matter if I’m motivated. I’m kind of doing that now. The amps have bypass filters but I find the active crossover and sound processor with an adjustable crossover are doing a fine job. I have one 500 watt amp per pair in the doors whenever I put bypass on it sounds fuller off. I’m running a separate amp for tweeters in the back and happy not running a separate amp on these and letting the crossover split the tweeters. I also have two pair of tweeter on the dash. The sub box fits so I’m happy. Room for two 15” Thunders a battery 7 amps sound processor 3. Capacitor drives  Really don’t need 2 woofers but it does go boom. If there is a better way that fits I would try it. 

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Photo of the capacitors I have to help stabilize voltage and running a second battery 

61928096-2DC7-484C-B14A-BA33DC5F3744.jpeg

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Ok since no one else is going to say then I guess ill be the big man and say it........... Love the cat bro!

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13 minutes ago, Chad L said:

Photo of the capacitors I have to help stabilize voltage and running a second battery 

61928096-2DC7-484C-B14A-BA33DC5F3744.jpeg

 

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On 2/24/2018 at 4:07 PM, Chad L said:

Thanks for taking the time to post. I can honestly say the comments were taken as insulting and not supported with any articles or links. I’m open to constructive criticism presented where I can’t see the constructive. I’ll ask for more clarity next time instead af guessing I’m being hazed. 

The post is about Saab 900 stereo or audio. Saab tried to present itself as a high end audio system with Clarion head unit equalizers auxiliary amps and trunk CD players. The only speaker options are 4” front and 4x10 rear that are not well baffled or enclosed. Not too bad with a small amp and sub driven off the speakers but if you want more nothing will say it fits that vehicle  

Almost anything has to be custom installed and the Saab has hidden ability to be upgraded. One of the amazing things I did was make the front dash take 5 3/4 component speakers that looked factory like driven by an amp off the Clarion head unit I installed keeping the car with the original brand. With a small sub in the back sounds pretty good. Comments at the time were it sounds better than the Bose system in my infinity. 

I learned very quickly about phase because one amp was Bluetooth and sometimes would not sync and bass was better until I swapped phase. It really was a nice enjoyable system. 

For home audio I like Martin Logan. I find the electrostatic folded tweeter to be jaw dropping in compared to any speaker. I tried it in the Saab and got amazing results and a cool install using Home theatre brackets. It’s on it’s own amp properly sized that if I want I can run on Bluetooth alone. 

4x10 are hard to find the Pioneers I had were maybe better than the Kicker I got now but altering the car for something else would be limited to a 4” or two 4” maybe 3 but I decided to put speakers on the back dash instead. Since the hatch may not be a great baffle I built very cool and attractive enclosures with wood bowls. 

Staying with the I never saw that done in a Saab before I installed speakers in the back seat. This is the only Saab 900 I know where someone tried that and it’s so smart I’m surprised the factory never did that. Again all these locations are common on modern cars. 

Even door speakers are very common but not on the Saab. I’ve seen many attempts to install a speaker in the panel of a Saab 900 but none as impressive or effective as I did simple as it is. 

I worked with a guy who used to be into car audio and had won best in Show with his truck. He showed me videos and pictures from competitions. He encouraged me to install a bigger alternator ground wire and main wire my voltage went from 12 to almost 14. 

He also said where I installed one speaker the pros install 4. I took the rear panels out and squeezed in another driver. Sounded better. 

When I did the doors I had not planned on going 4 drivers per door but the installation allowed it  i used an existing pocket I actually added one pair at a time and it kept sounding better. If I had done the doors first I may not have installed any other speakers they rock the house there are times I think the sub is on when it is not. 

As far a balance goes the two speakers in the front dash are amazing and difficult to balance out to the rest of the car. Fader will do it but it always sounds better with zero fade. Adjusting gains works better and loading up the rear. 

I remeber back in 1978 a BMW with something like 10 4” Blaupunk speakers on the back dash. It sounded pretty good they were trying to re invent back then. The system that was the best however was two Klipsh 12” Hereshy Driver’s with an original Fosgate amp. 

The Saab is partially re creating those two systems in one car with modern features. 

The sound is continually improving. It was always nice before and hard to imagine it could sound better but it does. 

I see lots of SUV’s station wagons trucks and cars wit trunks putting advanced systems in them but few hatch backs and fewer Saab’s where I managed to maintain room for passengers and luggage. 

For being a car that can’t accept most systems it lended itself nicely. Will it win at a show? Wasn’t built for that but it’s loud clear clean with big subs and amps. 

Comments are welcome but please be respectful. 

Thanks. 

7CF0FEB3-8905-4242-BDBE-3CEBE859A4AF.jpeg

Please don't take any of the comments as insulting, I can understand when someone suggests something different be done on something you have put so much time and money into, can be taken the wrong way.  But, please understand it is all coming from a helpful place. 

I do enjoy your 900, and have always loved a SAAB in a weird way.  It's cool to see people keeping them on the road, though I live in the land of Lexus, BMW, and Volvo, a SAAB stands out.  Have you done any sound deadening to the car?  Asking as you would be surprised hearing some of my past installs that were heavily deadened, that had very minimal amount of speakers, basic HU processing, and no rear fill.  I scored well in local SQ competitions.  The only thing my install didn't have was a cool kitty.

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  I had a similar set of Alpine's. The woofer is made by Vifa, in Demark.  So close to your car's birthplace. Lol

  I hope you don't mind me posting pictures. DSC04452.JPGhonda 119.JPG

  They had good midbass, but we're kind of inefficient speakers as a trade off.  I had to run 300 W per channel to them, before they livened up!  Not that they were seeing that wattage all the time. BUT when the dynamic burst in the music called for the power, it was available to create depth in the midbass. 

   Why am I telling you all this?  Because I personally think you are suffering from lack of dynamic power.  If you're using all the power to get them loud there is nothing left for the dynamic peaks in the music.  The VERY first speaker was created by rice and Edward in the 20s.  The very first thing they said is this will require a large power amplifier with lots of dynamic range to make music. That's from the mouth of the men that invented it. ;) 

What's the difference between a 2 watt amplifier with a 20 dB dynamic range and 100 W amplifier with a 2 dB dynamic range? Nothing!  Without that available dynamic power the EQ can't can do anything.

 The second thing to point out is that you can chase the reflections with the EQ.  All it will do is shift the peaks and valleys to different frequencies. You CANNOT EQ out a reflection. ;)

 Clarity in music comes from tonal balance across all frequencies, for the timbre of the music and instruments to sound correct. The hopes I had when suggested the YouTube videos and the instrument frequency graph is this. To realize the sounds that make drums and such have an edge are not in the low frequencies. The crunch of a snare is way up in the 4kHz range. Even the whack of the  kick drum is around 1000Hz. 

  In all honesty frequencies between 63 and 250 Hz do not need to be that loud. But they ABSOLUTELY MUST be in time with the subwoofer and the mid range to be present in the sound. This is due to the fact that our ears do not pick up great changes in volume in that range, but rely more on timing. Above 250hz is all about matching levels, below is ALL about timing. 

  Back in the 80s there were many cars with speakers all over the place. Then testing equipment became readily available!!! Then everyone realized how inefficient things were set up, and what could be improved on. Not necessarily better speakers,  but speakers specifically designed for each application. More precise mounting locations. Amplifiers set up to give dynamic range. So basically less of just everything and more of just the right stuff!! This should give you an understanding of where these guys are coming from. Infact one of the posters works for an acoustical engineering firm. ;)

 More pics of me chasing the midbass!!  Take note there are one, yes one set of baby 3 inch speakers playing the upper frequencies. On very little power and mounted very precisely. Believe me, most of the guys here would love to have 5 1/2"s on the dash! Myself included. honda doors 001.JPGhonda doors 006 (2).JPGmed_gallery_10399_421_173108.jpghonda doors 007 (2).JPG

 So yeah I love the car!!  Keep doing you!!  Hope you can take something from this and apply it. If not now, maybe on a future car!!  

You seem like a humble guy that is into learning and trying new things. If I had your car to play with personally today,  this is probably the first thing I would test.  I would shut off the rears and double/triple the power to the front doors and dash. Set the eq FLAT, flat, flat, flat.  Then I would bandbass the door speakers starting at 70-80hz with a steep slope, up to about 200-250hz. Start the dash ones from there up. Do this with the sub OFF, and take your time to get the levels and timing set between those four sets of speakers. This is where a dsp with a hand held controller in super snazzy, as you can dial from the listener position. Something like the Alpine H800! Anyways back to the suggestion. Once the fronts are dialed, feather in the sub. There should be very little need for the EQ, other than small adjustments. If they are more than a small adjustments something is going on elsewhere, such as reflections or harmonic distortion.  Things that cannot be EQ'ed out, and MUST be dealt with accordingly.  As always have fun with it!!

Anyways a few really good reads that apply perfectly to the info you are after!

http://www.glasswolf.net/papers/sqsystem.html

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/topic/72939-time-alignment-tutorial/

 

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3 hours ago, Aaron Clinton said:

Please don't take any of the comments as insulting, I can understand when someone suggests something different be done on something you have put so much time and money into, can be taken the wrong way.  But, please understand it is all coming from a helpful place. 

I do enjoy your 900, and have always loved a SAAB in a weird way.  It's cool to see people keeping them on the road, though I live in the land of Lexus, BMW, and Volvo, a SAAB stands out.  Have you done any sound deadening to the car?  Asking as you would be surprised hearing some of my past installs that were heavily deadened, that had very minimal amount of speakers, basic HU processing, and no rear fill.  I scored well in local SQ competitions.  The only thing my install didn't have was a cool kitty.

I’m only using quote to reply. Thanks I used sound dampening in the panels the door speakers don’t go thru the panel and the rear speakers are enclosed. Maybe I’m not producing enough bass but comments have been it doesn’t rattling of buzz. I live in Miami so It’s windows down roof open. Saab has a reputation but I’m only looking at this as methods not seen before to install upgrades to that car and how nice it is to work on. Cats are bass heads. 

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Thank for the post J. I’ve used up my photo allowance so thanks for the photos of you car. The Alpine looks big larger than 6 3/4? I didn’t think I could fit anything bigger on that door because of the room but possibly could on the ends. That said not much is available? Would you try a 6.5 sub in a door? 

You mentioned having enough power The 4 speakers on the door are driven by 2 NVX amps with Polk brand on them 250 watts per channel 1000 rated watts per door. One amp for the 6 3/4 coax and on amp for the 5 3/4 component. Two identical drivers per channel wired to 2 ohms. 

The amps have adjustable LPF and HPF but with DSP and active crossover I don’t think it’s needed I play with it tho. The same 500 watt amp is on the dash Alpine 5 3/4 component but at 4 ohm is probably 300 watts? I play with the amp filters. 1500 watts to 10 speakers between the doors and dash. I’ve got the gains down under half but use the audio Controls DSP input output levels. I’m playing with tuning the gains down more to push the subs sooner without jacking up the sub gain  

The rear speakers have an 800 watt 4 channel NVX on 4 speaker and a 600 watt Alpine driving the Two JBL competition and back seat Alpine  I have a 4 channel Cadence driving the Martin Logan Motion and bi amping the tweeters to the JBL competition thru it’s adjustable passive crossover  

The audicontrol uses the crossover in your posted article and has delays on  left channel and sub. 

If I understand correctly distances change phase so multiple drivers can cause phase distortion. I may need to get the mic to measure frequencies separately. Be amazing if I’m actually missing something.

Reading the instructions with the DSP/EQ 250 area tends to over power because of acoustic flaws and tuning to a flat graph gives a better sound. I found this added clearness. It also allowed the speakers to be driven louder. 

I found trying to bring that area back up a little would start to over drive the 6 and 5’s but the system felt like it needed more punch or mid bass. Playing with sub EQ I found it sounded like it is getting more of that working. 

Early on I had the Alpine dash and small sub that when I played wit phase would make remarkable changes. I’ve kept that in mind when adding drivers and try to evaluate but the idea that distance would create a cancellation phase shift that swapping polarity can help ill check out. 

Generally I don’t hear any loss of mid bass as I cycle different speakers. But more would be better I find that whatever settings work on one set helps the the others and they always sound better together. 

I played Pink Floyd’s Welcome to the Machine and Old rock tune with Synth Bass for someone that wanted to hear my system he got a little nervous because he felt it in his chest a lot. 

 yes the more I do I sometimes wonder if it sounded better before? I felt it was a bit of a monster but now it’s a bigger badder Monster that plays nicely. Plays P-Qb4 incredibly try it without subs or with.  Nice mids 

 

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That’s a really nice song 

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23 hours ago, ManzKea said:

That’s a really nice song 

The recording quality of it is however terrible in that link.  Holy hell.  

No problems getting it into reference levels here at my desk with ONLY 1 - 4" full ranger on each side and a small 10" sub...

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YouTube is only way I correct post it? Guess I could have filed shared. Sorry about the quality. I’ll try other methods. https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/kiss-from-a-rose/30475342?i=30475379

I worked with a guy that did professional camera work. Music video commercials he said sound guys often played this song to take audio readings for speakers and setting up mikes. He asked them why they liked the song and was told it had good levels of a little of everything. I played it for him in my car. 

I’m not sure if other people have test songs or albums they like to use to compare how a system is sounding but I had a few but they change at times. I could try to post samples but don’t want to use YouTube because it’s poor quality and iTunes only gives a sample but I’ll list a few how is the system sounding. 

My friend said to try Everlasting Bass he liked that one. A 1989 Jem I guess https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/everlasting-bass/338684218?i=338684323

When I was selling audio around 1977 Aiwa just released a digital tuner and George Benson Breezing was the stores favorite to sell a system. I used that often because I’ve heard it for a long time on many systems. https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/breezin/1018562855

Most of what I listened to didn’t have 5.1 at the time so big bass was usually bass pedals last like Dance on the Volcano  https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/dance-on-a-volcano/73239685?i=73239589 I like this song as loud as I possibly can. On a side note Phil Collins in the air tonight destroyed a pair of 10” Cerwin Vega I had years ago. I blamed the speakers but it may have been me. 

I don’t think Yusuf Another cup is on iTunes I have it on CD then loaded it but Please don’t let me be misunderstood   A cover by him has a crazy bass pedal considering he’s Cat Stevens iTunes Can’t even get the artwork but I played that early in building the system in the Saab. 

There are lots of songs to play that can perform  but it’s nice to have a few for referencing. 

I was going to Show Return to Ommadawn as a song that the Saab does everything I want but it’s not on iTunes and YouTube doesn’t have pt1 or the entire album but lots of people trying to cover it 

 this is the best sample I can find 

for a lot of nylon string acoustic and electric guitars some of the coolest bass tracks 

I have more but the post was about favorite songs to break in a system. 

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On 2/28/2018 at 9:22 AM, ///M5 said:

The recording quality of it is however terrible in that link.  Holy hell.  

No problems getting it into reference levels here at my desk with ONLY 1 - 4" full ranger on each side and a small 10" sub...

The ears of an audiophile! Well I’m listening off my phone and first time I heard it so not sure exactly what’s missing. Glad to know it only gets better. I thought that hissing scratching noise is suppose to be there. Like how songs were in the 50s or so. I figured it was classical 

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Closing this topic as OP has no intention of listening to any advice, as he proceeded to go on a massive, unhinged post reporting rant, followed by moving to twitter to bash my company and the products we carry.

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