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ncc74656

rockford midbass drivers?

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I'll add one other comment.  For the amount of work you are putting in, the door is the worst place to put the mid and tweeter.  

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from what i understand the closer the mid/tweet are to each other the easier it will be to tune staging with them and the less group delay (i think its called) i would need to account for. with out going back and reading what i intended to say was the mids/tweets would more than likely be on axis to the driver and the midbass would be kind of the entire door, given I'm looking at 8-12" midbass it will be position in the forward/bottom/middle 2/3 of the door.

the a pillar is where most of my coworkers put there's but i intend to have this taken up with gages and such. the doors however sit about 4" below shoulder level for me and have more than enough room to allow for a stacked mid/tweet configuration. i would put them both in pods there.  i think that would be as close to optimal location as i could get in there? the other options i would have are a pillar which would bring the sound forward and wouldn't allow for a vertical configuration or IN the dash firing at the windshield for the mids and tweets int eh a pillar and for that i don't know if i could dsp that to sound good, the reflections off the glass like that, idk how to account for that.

 

i want to use car audio drivers because we sell them and id like to show them off, years ago i had bought some drivers from parts express to play with and they sounded good but at the end of the day i can get car audio drivers cheaper AND its a selling point to boot. 

 

i had thought of pointing the drivers at the opposing seats up front (driver to passenger and vice versa) and tuning with the 30 degree off axis so i could swap listening positons but the most volume would be from on axis so i think that's what id want to do. 

 

i am looking at the hertz because i like the color of their sound, they have good excursion, and at 90db/1m\w and 100W rms, on paper they should be the loudest speakers that we sell at the store. they also have the frequency range that id be operating in as well.

 

with the mid bass in the door why would that change its response that much? if its playing up to say 400hz it would still be Omni directional audio to our ears no? and its no where near beaming yet on a 10 or 12" driver.

 

I'm trying to explain what i think and why so you can understand where I'm coming from and have the most information to tell me where I'm wrong and more importantly why I'm looking at things the wrong way.

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Or you are going to do what you are going to do regardless of how we try to help.  That is what it seems.

 

3 way and active with car audio drivers is generally a super fucking waste.  Even at cost, you have better value in raw drivers.  I am sure there are exceptions, but you are stuck on boutique nonsense instead of real performance.  Get over that..

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I take it that you work at a Car Audio Shop. 

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there are a handful of car audio speakers, if i open things up to parts express and other brands there are a plethora of speakers. i don't really know what to choose, there are too many options...

car audio speakers are 100 or so watts, most of the parts express are 15 or so watts, I'm having a hard time correlating what will be loud and sound decent to the specs. i realize there is more to it than just watts, its just an example.

at the core of it how do the car audio speakers differ from the home audio speakers? lets leave the PA stuff out but just talking about say a 8" jl ZR midbass compared to a 8" midbass that you might find in your 100.00 tower speakers? neither one is running IB and yet car audio speakers retail is 3 or more times the cost of a home audio speaker. whats different?

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am i understanding the following correctly?

if you have two speakers of the same size and similar vas +/-5%, could one safely say that the sensitivity and power would determine how loud they can get if installed in the same manner? that is to say a 90db sensitivity @ 100W would be about 110db where as a 20w at 90db would be 104 ish?

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What type of system are you planning exactly??

if you are looking for just “loud” (from what info you are giving us) then your choices are simple. Go with what’s in your shop and beat the shit out of them. You won’t need a processor for that for sure.

most people here (in each their own way) are audiophiles and demand clean, clear, and dynamic sound over loud any day. 

So please, when describing your ideal system, be specific. Just saying 

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when someone says audiophile i think of focal utopia's, those are very clear to me BUT i cant tell the difference from those vs a set of 500.00 hertz... so i think the ultra expensive audiophile grade would be wasted on me.

i don't want just loud, i want a system that can get very loud, have a lot of bass but also be 'even' for lack of a better word. i want to be able to hear all the notes, instruments, vocals, with out having the one note wonders so many systems have or with out one group of frequencies overpowering the rest.  i need a dsp because i want to be able to EQ and setup staging so the audio sounds more like I'm at a concert than just sitting in a car. my truck is very loud to start with (about 80db at idle) so i need more power than the average car just to over come the engine.

i listine to everything from classical to dub step to rock and rap, I want a system that is well balanced. when i have installed focal KRX3's i have always been disappointed in midbass, pretty much every single car i install in i am disappointed with midbass response so that's why i was focousing on that first, trying to determine what exactly i would need to get the volume.

I'm also not looking to spend a crap load of money, others at my shop have spent 15K plus on just the speakers. i just want a decent system for around 1500 bucks and given the accommodation prices i thought tahts doable but i find myself questioning the speakers. it seems every time i come on here i feel like I'm up a creek with out a paddle.

 

i was thinking, you said that given what I'm after you wouldn't use car audio drivers. why is that? what is it about car audio drivers vs home or pa that places the car versions in the not worth while category?

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Posted (edited)

I run car audio drivers. I’m not the one that said not use them. 

Also, I design my systems for flat EQ, and measured out for identical listening distances between drivers so no need to time align separately.  So it would be useless to have a full blown out processor for my setups. 

Thanks for the much better explanation.

Edited by Randal Johnson

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I understand, I don’t have a shit ton to spend either these days. My mid bass drivers are in stock door locations with well baffled and treated doors. 

Look into Beyma drivers (if they still exist). Had a demo vehicle parked by me at Daytona one year. I have to admit, I liked their sound. 

Good luck with your build Sir. Hopefully I can get back to work on mine one day.

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how did you manage to get equidistant positions? in mine i have about 4.5 ft to one driver and 1 ft to the other...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ncc74656 said:

how did you manage to get equidistant positions? in mine i have about 4.5 ft to one driver and 1 ft to the other...

is this left and right separation ??? if it is, sounds like a nice number to start with for time alignment.

This was my starting point. Nothing is the way it is now. My advice is to have a standing order at the local junk yard for A-pillars and door panels cause nothing replaces trial and error.  both drivers measure to the listener's ear at the same time. Test and tune from there.

By the way, this is a 5.25" passive component set shownKIMG0009.

Edited by Randal Johnson
I can't type for shit these days

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14 hours ago, ncc74656 said:

at the core of it how do the car audio speakers differ from the home audio speakers? 

They are overpriced.  And designed to be cheap.  Alpine F1 status is a good example.  Consisted of a Scan Speak Revelator and D2904 tweeter.  Retail from Scan Speak was around $650 at the time and the SAME drivers from Alpine were nearly 10x that.  Car audio shit is labeled for the car and marked up.  Regularly with no design in mind (ie Skarbage and the like).  There are exceptions, like what Aaron has done on here with the SSA drivers but they are few and far between.

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13 hours ago, ncc74656 said:

am i understanding the following correctly?

if you have two speakers of the same size and similar vas +/-5%, could one safely say that the sensitivity and power would determine how loud they can get if installed in the same manner? that is to say a 90db sensitivity @ 100W would be about 110db where as a 20w at 90db would be 104 ish?

No, ignore any one spec unless you look at them all.

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ok, if i am comparing speakers is winisd a decent tool for me to use to see how a raw driver sounds? i understand boxes, cabin gain, positioning all plays a large part but to just try and compare a vs b vs c.  so if I'm browsing 10" woffers on parts express i would like to have an idea of which one would be loud and still sound clean

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speaking of single specs... is the rule about qts true? how you can tell if the driver wants to be sealed or ported based on this data point?

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Winisd is a great tool for understanding free air response on the low end.  And Qts is definitely indicative of what alignment a bass driver will perform well in.

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Posted (edited)

It’s not Qts, the figure that determines a drivers enclosure characteristic is the EBP (efficiency bandwidth product).  The EBP is calculated by dividing the Fs by the Qes. 

As the books generally go, 0-50 is sealed enclosure territory, 50-100 is okay for either and over 100 is strictly ported. 

 

edit: Well leave it to M5 to jump in whilst I was held up finishing my post to make me look foolish...

Edited by altoncustomtech

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No Alton, you are much more clear.  I assumed he meant he was calculating EBP as I couldn't imagine what other "rule", but should have clarified.  You did :)

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 At the end of the day it is still all about Hoffmans iron law.  By the time you build a stout enough enclosure for the midbass. Then account for the displacement of the enclosure and the speaker, you will have a small enclosure.  I speak from experience, plan on having a lot of power and a speaker that can handle it.  At the minimum one that can handle 200watts, at the bare minimum. I would highly recommend one that can take more.  

Think about how much power you feed your sub. Do you think a 100 or 150 Watt 10" will level out and not be stressed? If sticking in that power range, a 7" mid/woofer 2 way will sound better. 

 Believe me I'm not trying to talk you out of anything. My mantra is no guts, no glory!  But it is a lot of work and money. So if it's not thought out and calculated correctly, it will be less than stellar. 

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yea i was talking about ebp, just didn't use the right words.   i am fine throwing a thousand watts at each midbass if needed but that brings another question... 

i should model all the potential speakers I'm looking at in winisd, my coworkers have often just looked at the sensitivity and scoffed at power handling because a sensitive speaker will always be louder than one with lots more power. " " .  i must admit i don't have a great handle on how power rating really impacts sound. i have been told any speaker that needs loads of power is poorly designed because jl or focal can make a speaker that is far louder and takes just a fraction of the wattage. take my sp4 for example, it can take 3500W where a jl w7 might take 800 and be comparable in volume.   i have not compared the two but this is what i am often told for why we sell such brands. 

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I'm looking into 2 way setups as well now. since i can get stupid low prices from car audio companies can any of you think of a sub that would work as a midbass? kicker, audison, focal, hertz, Rockford, infinity, jbl, pioneer, illusion audio, and mosconi, kenwood, clarion - are the brands i have to choose from

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, ncc74656 said:

I'm looking into 2 way setups as well now. since i can get stupid low prices from car audio companies can any of you think of a sub that would work as a midbass? kicker, audison, focal, hertz, Rockford, infinity, jbl, pioneer, illusion audio, and mosconi, kenwood, clarion - are the brands i have to choose from

I still don't understand why you need SOOOO much effort for midbass.  I have my truck completely dualed with 2.5" pipe, (new Style) old school glass packs, and 90'd out behind the rear tires. honestly it sound like a dual'd out 74 Chevy LWB truck.

With that bring said, my 6.5" mid bass drivers is all my truck needs to score really well in MECA competition. Like I said earlier, it's always better to start out with less and upgrade if need be. I understand that I have a shit ton of class A/B power on my drivers, but great midbass is accomplishable with moderate sized drivers.

Edited by Randal Johnson

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22 minutes ago, ncc74656 said:

I'm looking into 2 way setups as well now. since i can get stupid low prices from car audio companies can any of you think of a sub that would work as a midbass? kicker, audison, focal, hertz, Rockford, infinity, jbl, pioneer, illusion audio, and mosconi, kenwood, clarion - are the brands i have to choose from

Stupid low prices are still more than retail on real drivers.

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thing is there not, most are close to the same or a bit cheaper. as an example the 1600.00 Rockford 2500.1 amp is 550 and the 900.00 hertz 7" is one hundred 10.00. that's why its so hard to decide to go after other speakers than car audio...  if the prices were retail there is no way i would condier them. such as the JL 13w7's or the focal krx3's are priced insane.. i just cant wrap my head around what could possibly be so expensive on those speakers, they do not sound 1800.00 better than a 200.00 set of speakers

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