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Icon 12 follow up thoughts

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I decided to post my follow up thougts in a seperate thread about the Icon 12 I have now.   Initially I had decided to install the sub in my commuter car and old honda accord.  I have always had response issues with this car with some cancellation in the 60-80hz range.  Being unhappy with how the icon sounded in this car I decided to go a different route.  I decided to put a system in my Ram3500 truck.  I bought a set of Alpine type r 6.5 components an Arc audio xdi 450 amp and used a pioneer double din that I already had.  I have 4 6.5 mids in the truck 1 in each door and ran the amp to create a 3 way setup with the front channels of the Arc amp running the tweeters and the 4 mids running of the rear channels.  I have to say that I was very impressed with this setup.  This little amp is super impressive and I highly recommend it.  The doors on the Ram truck are excellent from the factory as they have two panels on each door an inner panels that is very well sealed and the outer door panel.  The driver response is very good down to 60hz.  For the sub I have tried 4 different enclosures to see which one would give me the sound I was after.  I have been in the car audio world for years but always used the typical higher end "big box" brand subs.  typical 4-500 watt models with 13-15mm xmax and using multiple drivers to get the out put that I wanted.  These newer custom made subs with high xmax and large moving mass cones are a very different animal and have their limitations that no one talks about.  First off they are power hungry and really need to be powered with as much as they can handle to really shine.  As I have found out frequency response is just the opposite of smaller mass lower powered drivers, they struggle to move enough air to play below 30hz and output typically drops off rapidly on the low end.  The Icon is just the opposite it really shines in the ultra low registers and in a box tuned to 30hz will play very loud from 45-30hz with steep rolloff on both the upper and lower end.  The upper response is limited by the nature of the driver, its physically harder to move that large mass fast enough to play above 45hz. It actually takes more power to keep the cone under control above 45hz with this type of sub.  Low frequencies dont require the cone to move fast,  but does require lots of travel.  I had not read about this anywhere and this phenomenon was unexpected, Its typcal in all subs but exagerated with this type of sub.  I'm used to subs that will play from 30-100hz not 20-50hz.  

Anyway  in the truck I tried a smaller 1.9cuft ported enclosure that I had tuned to 35hz, this improved the upper response from 45-60hz some what but I was still not happy, bass drums didnt sound like bass drums all the upper harmonics were lost as the sub nor the mids could play those notes with any authority  A frequency sweep verified a steep drop off from 45-80hz range.  I then went with a sealed box, down firing behinid the console in front of the rear seat in my crew cab truck.  I tried a couple different volumes and ended up with 1.3cuft.  This put everything where I wanted it.  A frequency sweep now yields a fairly flat response from 25hz up with a smooth transistion between the sub and the mids, no big dips.  Musically it sounds very good, it doesnt have the huge output of the ported boxes but still very loud.  Bass drums sound like bass drums, not just a boomy mess that you get when you have a large hole in the frequency response.  The drum attacks are quick and precise, actually better than any thing I have had previous to this.  The air spring inside the sealed box helps get the mass of the driver moving a sort of bouncing effect you might say.  I tried a larger sealed box but the output actually went down and didnt sound as good as with the smaller size.  The only thing I have at this point to complain about is simply I need more power.  The sub is big and heavy and is hard to adjust amp gains with the amount of power I have to get a linear response.  Simply put I run out of power on the sub before I run out power on the mids and highs and , its very easy to drive the sub amp into clipping.  If I adjust both amps to max output at the same time, then at lower volumes the sub is lacking in output.  Not a complaint about the sub, just something to keep in mind.  At some point I will invest in a better amp than this hifonics.  

In conclusion,  if you want high output and like rap, techno type music go ported tuned to 30hz or so.  If like me you listen to everything but rap go with the sealed enclosure.  If I had the room and money to play with I would go with the ported box from 20-40hz and add in a couple of 8's from 40-80hz and transition to the mids and highs, output would be phenomenal and sound great with whatever you decided to play.  the sub is a quality piece and sounds good as long as you know its limitations and know what to expect from it.  I know this is kinda long but a review that says it rattles my car like nothing else doesnt tell you much.  

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I found your longy post rather interesting because it mirrors my long term frustration, which is that with the loss of the upper bass output. I would like to share my story briefly.

My first ever setup consisted of:

- Peugeot 206 1999 Version

- HU Pioneer 4100SD

- Factory Front and Rear Speakers

- Subwoofer: SPL Dynamics v300-s4 350W @ 4 Ohm in a 49 Litres Slot Port Box

- Subwoofer Amplifier: Kole Audio QX620 Bridged 1x360W @ 4 Ohm

Audio Experience: 9/10! Insipte of the factory speakers, unamplified the audio experience was extraordinary! Even though the low frequencies were more powerful, I have never had any frequency gaps even when I crossed the Subwoofer @45 Hz on the Kole Amplifier. I cannot describe how divine the music felt inside that CAR.

 

Now back to the present:

- KIA RIO Hatchback Coupe 2016 Version

- HU Pioneer 80PRS

- Front System: Gladen RS 165  2x120W @ 3 Ohm powered by Mosconi Gladen ONE 120.2 Amplifier 2x120W @ 4 Ohm

- Rear System Factory, disabled

- Subwoofer: ESX Quantum QE-1224 800W @ 4x4 Ohm in a 50 Litres Slot Port Box

- Subwoofer Amplifier: JL Audio Rd1000/1 1x800W @ 2 Ohm

Audio Experience: 4/10 No matter what I do, I always have a gap in these areas: 40-50Hz, 60-90Hz, and an overemphasis below 40Hz. This disappears once I lay the driver seat towards the back seats, imagine my head then resting horizontally me being lower than the normal driver position, from that position it seems a portion of the gaps are no longer there, so weird and frustrating... BUT, no matter the crossover settings on Hu or AMplifier, no matter the phase, no matter the door treatments, no matter the firing position of the sub in the trunk, The only way possible to hear that spectrum of frequencies coming from the sub itself is to be in the near vecinity of it, say putting the sub on the rear seats or on the front passenger seat or to rest your driver seat horizontallywise like you're ready to take a nap in the car lol. I suspect this car is resonating in such a way that the sound becomes extremely muddy, just a thought...

I have almost given up. I tried and I tried and I freakin tried a lot of combination o settings. I had improved the quality of the sound by a mere fraction, say when I brought all of the audio components grounds to a common ground point. But no matter what I did, it still played like crap and nothing similar to what I was used to in that Peugeot 206 which wasn't even sound treated.

 

I strongly want to believe that the acoustics of this particular ca is totally against any enjoyable audio experience. If this is true than I'd be relieved in a way, at least I have an answer. Other than that, try not to imagine Clipping or Distortion issues, as these are excluded from start, since the Rd1000 has a clipping indicator and me knowing what I am dealing with when it comes to crossover settings, Gain, Phase, or the settings on the HU itself.

Edited by wizz
story is so long and frustrating I keep forgetting crucial details

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You are suffering from cancellation issues.  The moment you moved, voila, back to bass.  Unfortunately, the fickle acoustic qualities of a vehicle cause issues like this all the time, and many times it takes trial and error of several applications until you find something satisfactory.

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Thank you for your speedy intervention.

I also forgot to mention, bass is also not tight, not hitting the right notes, even when the sub is the only one playing. The only time I get tight bass is when I get out of the care, open the trunk and stand next to the sub. I mean there is something telling me that even in that particular situation, when I am next to it, although it seems way better, it's still not that rich bass I was used to.

My Subwoofer is double crossed over. I cannot disable the LPF on the HU itself, neither the LPF on the JL, they are always on. I tried LPF on deck all the way to 200Hz max with the 6db Slope, while on the amp 80Hz or lower, tried different settings. Nothing.

This HU has 3 outputs. I thought to myself how could I bypass the double crossover, maybe that's the main reason, cabin gain bing a secondary one,, hypothetically speaking. So the I thought to myself to try and take the deck out, plug out the subs rcas from the dedicated SUB rca outputs on the back of the HU and plugging them to the REAR output of the HU. That way I am able to set the crossover for the REAR on the deck to to pass all frequencies. This should theoretically work, since the LPF on the JL amp is always on. WHat do you think?

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It's worth a shot.  Sometimes, it's all just about trial and error.

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I didn't try that because I thought of the "Stereo" property of the rear RCA output.

 

Allow me to apologize. My issue was the gain knob on the JL amp, way higher than it should have been... So I have listened to distorted bass this whole time. No wonder I went through all this frustration. Like a sinewave. There were times I thought everything was ok, only for the next day to feel no difference whatsoever and start the frustration all over again.

 

I think my issue is/was simple, matching the JL gain wih the 80PRS sub preout voltage. Strange that the clip indicator on the JL amp did not light up while trying to set the gain playing a 0db 40hz...

 

What I did today is I have lowered the gain way down, it's like 20 25% and the sub plays very tight and clean. I have no cancelation issues anymore or at least I am under the impression of that. And everytime I ran the AutoTA&EQ, Pioneer has always set the Sub to MINUS 19db or even lowerer lol.

 

What I will do next is to set up the gain properly using a DMM. I didn't have the 40Hz test track at hand. The sub is capable of 800W @ 2Ohms and the JL can reproduce those at 2Ohms. I need to match the 40VoltsRMS (Volts AC) on full volume according to my calculations, while playing the 40hz track.

 

Bottom line I am an idiot.

Edited by wizz

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Nah, not an idiot.  I don't see how thia cleared your cancellation issues either, but a win is a win.

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I think there's still some kind of cancellation, but not so much as before haha. I have some specific tracks with specific bass. When I listen to them using a decent pair of in-ear headphones, you get that cool heightened bass feeling and you just want to start dancing to the rhythm, feeling which I was accustomed to in my other car with that other setup. Thing is I don't get the same feeling here though. I hope a little bit of tuning would help me reach that point, which is the only thing I am looking for, that cool feeling like you're being embraced by bass waves I miss so much and you just wish others could experience those divine moments with you.

Edited by wizz

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I just recently thought about something. So my first setup consisted of Kole Audio qx620 (reproduces 360 W bridged @ 4 Ohm) for my former awesome subwoofer (SPL Dynamics v300-s4 @ 350W).

I had the GAIN knob on it all the way to the MAX and along with it a clean signal @ 52-53 Volume of the Pioneer 4100sd HU might I say even higher (even with +2 Bass Boost on HU and Bass Boost on the Kole also a little bit, Sound Retriever 2), but I don't know when that HU started to distort exactly, it seemed it never did.

 

The Pioneer 4100sd had only one preout RCA @ 4V. And I don't know which sensitivity value that Kole amp had, but I had it turned all the way clockwise to the max and even then it sounded good.

 

Could anybody explain this?

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Tirefryr you were right I still experience attenuations/cancellations. I even went ahead and put the RCA for the sub in the REAR preout of the radio. It seems it plays clearer, now that there is only one LPF active (amp's LPF), on the HU for the REAR is set to Pass. I don't like the fact this amp from JL doesn't have a switch to Pass the whole signal, or Pioneer 80PRS for the same reason. If one buys the 80PRS, he must know that there is no way to turn off the LPF for the sub in its settings.

How is it possible for a car to be such AGAINST everything related to a decent audio experience? I have never imagined that that could be such a pain in the a**.

I even went today to a professional, tried explaining, and he said it may also be the box in which the sub resides. So we scheduled a meeting because he was very busy. All of them are busy, even in this period of time. He listened to it for a while and noticed how bad it sounds lol. He asked me questions I tried everything he suggested already. So then we have a meeting on the 30th this month. I have never imagined that car audio could generate such amount of frustration lol.

 

 

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8 hours ago, wizz said:

Tirefryr you were right I still experience attenuations/cancellations. I even went ahead and put the RCA for the sub in the REAR preout of the radio. It seems it plays clearer, now that there is only one LPF active (amp's LPF), on the HU for the REAR is set to Pass. I don't like the fact this amp from JL doesn't have a switch to Pass the whole signal, or Pioneer 80PRS for the same reason. If one buys the 80PRS, he must know that there is no way to turn off the LPF for the sub in its settings.

How is it possible for a car to be such AGAINST everything related to a decent audio experience? I have never imagined that that could be such a pain in the a**.

I even went today to a professional, tried explaining, and he said it may also be the box in which the sub resides. So we scheduled a meeting because he was very busy. All of them are busy, even in this period of time. He listened to it for a while and noticed how bad it sounds lol. He asked me questions I tried everything he suggested already. So then we have a meeting on the 30th this month. I have never imagined that car audio could generate such amount of frustration lol.

 

 

All the hard surfaces are your enemies.

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6 minutes ago, wizz said:

I keep finding new info. Like I recently stumbled upon Active Noise Cancellation. COuld this be the culprit?

https://www.kicker.com/app/misc/support/tech/tech_papers/docs/ActiveNoiseCanceling.pdf

It could be if your vehicle was equipped this way from the factory.

 

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Thank you for your feedback I appreciate it! I thought of calling the dealer to ask them if this car has such technology but I don't think that would be the best idea. Maybe I'll share this with the audio technician next week.

 

There is little to no info online regarding this ANC on this car, otherwise I would've ripped it apart.

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What vehicle?

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I wouldn't think being an economy car that is would have that feature, but I really have no idea.

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Yes, that is something I am trying to convince myself of.

 

Thought of filming the inside of the car in order for you to see how the trunk looks like from driver seat POV, I honestly hope it is an acoustic issue and maybe there is hope still...

 

I remember the very first time I got in this car, everything felt claustrophobic, it has that small rear window, me used to open space in the rear like in the Peugeot 206.

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