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sqguy

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I was out of car stereo for a while but got the itch again, so I am trying stuff in my car. I just want a reasonable SQ system that shakes a little, nothing wild and certainly not expensive. I used to install the stuff a real long time ago and after a while I got to swapping cars so much I got lazy and stopped putting systems in....then had a job with a vehicle I could only put a cheap tube sub in. Now I need room so I am limited, I am going old school and putting 4 12" subs in the back seat IB and taking out the current sealed single 12 box. I have some comps in front that I scarfed off ebay along with the subs and a couple amps I had around. When I get the subs installed with a new amp I will have a better idea what I have, also have an EQ to try. I know I will be short on mid bass and I have this idea of trying an 8 woofer in the front with a 1" softdome (I prefer those). I will see how the current drivers react with the new amp I put in with the subs and decide what to do with that. If they work I might just add another tweeter, but I fear they will not put out and I just don't want to tear this little car up with custom stuff, I want it all under the door panels....except the extra tweeters I guess as there is no other way. The front speakers are low by my leg and the stage just does not work. I have a frame built up for the subs but can't seem to find time to finish it....soon.

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:WELCOME:

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Welcome. It sounds to me like you need to look for a headunit with active crossovers and time alignment.

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Welcome. It sounds to me like you need to look for a headunit with active crossovers and time alignment.

LOL, yes but it will have to wait...just need to get it usable first. I looked at that Clarion DXZ775USB...nice features but not sure about it. I have an Alpine in there, must be a middle of the road and is 2v. It sounds nice but I don't care for the controls and the tuner is weak. Looked at a pioneer 880 on ebay but I just got a kicker 700.5 and used up my play money for now. I need to research them some more but yes I'd like to get all that stuff in the HU and no more crossovers or EQs.

Also can try a hifonics 6ch that is a little smaller in wattage, its 300 on subs at 2ohms instead of the kicker's 420. IB subs usually don't take much power, these they say 150wrms when IB and four of them....what do you think? Also have an alpine ere-g190 to try on it, was running a nak 2way. I have other amps but a 5ch should fit really nice in this car.

Was about to mount the baffle frame in the car tonight, have the seat all out and then had to stop. I have it all glued together and put foam weatherstrip all around it to mount against the car. Still have to make the side plates but should go fast once I get it screwed into the car right/tight. No tunes at all in there now...no good. I should take a pic of it before I screw it in, but its pretty ugly since it will all be hidden anyway. I should get more time for it in the next week or so to finish up subs and then have to re-wire it for more power back there. I tried a bunch of single subs and boxes, all smaller and cheaper, all sucked and drove me nuts.

After that I wanted to try 8s in the front stage with the 1", I found some vifa that look usable up to around 4K but hard to say until they are in the car...could sound like dog ****. I am convinced that it will be hurting for midbass badly after all those 12s get going in there. The 5x7s were way weak before with one 12 without any EQ, and I like to get it close before I lean on an EQ. They will have more power but I don't think it will change the sound of them much.

This is taking forever to get installed, I feel like this guy --> :5shots: Sorry I didn't turn on the notification and get back here sooner, not like I got much done though :(

Also, nice site here. Found some good reading on some stuff that is hard to find.

Edited by sqguyib

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There aren't a ton of 8's that will blend super well with tweeters, but you could surely look at:

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_i...933bd46054b5d6e

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_i...roducts_id=1600

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_i...products_id=821 -- but the breakup might require a notch depending on the tweet you use

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_i...roducts_id=8176

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_i...products_id=949

All will probably have to be matched with a large format tweeter, or perhaps the Scan Speak D2904 but I'd prefer the large format if I could get away with it.

I haven't heard the Hi-Vi but know someone who enjoys theirs running 2way with the HDS tweeter and loves it.

The CA is going to lack on the midrange in particular on the 8, but the midbass output can be great.

The L has a nasty breakup mode, but should have cleaner midrange and wicked midbass.

The NX I haven't heard in an 8, but it is the king of 7's in my book.

The Rev is new and just a guess that you could probably make it work really well.

The other option would be to use a 7" Extremii which would have rather capable midbass, but need some real help on the upper end as well. Better in a 3 way probably, but with a real low running tweet you should be okay.

Tweeters, there are a ton of choices as well but other than the Scan they are pretty much all large face tweeters.

Have fun with the IB install and post pics as you make your way through it.

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The Extremis is great in the bottom octaves, but lacks a lot of detail in the midrange. If you can wait for the Poly 6.5's, they might be a good option, or the Peerless Exclusive series (very good performance at an affordable price).

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I meant to put the Exclusive on my list, thanks for adding it DD.

edit: of course I personally prefer the Seas but haven't heard the Exclusive in an 8

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Getting real close on the IB install but not running yet, been working on it a lot the last couple days. Here are pics from yesterday still have to wire it. Yes thats temp wire on the subs have to get something better and do it right. One sub is newer and lighter color...I'll keep an eye out for one that matches to swap it. Trunk shot is from top of bumper. That board was pretty heavy loaded with the 12s and amp...

Been wondering today if I can space the top of seat out a little for a gap, or if it would matter. But have to get them pumping first after I lay the power cable and put the eq in front. Maybe I can get some done tonight. This was much, much more difficult than a box. They don't build cars square.

trunksubs.jpg

backseatsubs.jpg

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I just temp hooked up the kicker for the subs and I am getting some kind of noise out of it. When I change or FF the CD track it thumps and there appears to be a rumble only on the CD in the background. Didn't do this with a 150rms or 300rms sub amp I had hooked up to the same wires. Changing the volume or gains has no effect. I'll check the wires quick but am replacing them anyway. It thumps but I can't beat on it with 8ga power for both amps...just playing it to keep up with the 30x2 alpine on highs and thats not that loud. Gain at about 1/3. Hard to drive around with 4 12s and not have any subs to listen too. Hope this amp is not a pos.

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I messed with the gains more and got rid of some of the rumble, its not that loud but should not be there. It is the CD player finding tracks. Can't hear it during music not sure if it does it then. It hammers though I didn't crank it too much. Wonder if it has to do with the amp at 2ohms, but its rated 420 at 2 and 210 at 4. Could wire it for 8 ohms but that would kill the power.

It seems tuned higher than I thought it would be, still lower than the sealed boxes I had in there. Of course I don't have the seat in right now either, that will change it significantly. I burped it a little and it has the thunder. :woot: Also before I had a box in the trunk and might not have noticed feedback with a smaller amp....but I did test a bunch of boxes outside the car and should have seen it then.

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Also thanks for the info on the 8s. I was just looking at tweeters and 8s until my eyes hurt.

Got the subs sounding better and think they will work out, but not sure until I get some power on them and the seat in. Have the power cable run into the cabin now, but have to pull the HU and change out RCAs and stuff and didn't have time to do that tonight...the biting bugs shut me down.

Still not sure why I would get CD noise in subs, it rumbles until the player finds the start of the song. Strange. I turned the amp gain way down and the crossover up and it helped a little but it does not seem to matter much where the gains or HU volume is at. It is hard to notice at all when driving, but when still it is obvious.

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You could try to find an Eclipse CD8053 used on ebay. it has 8v pre's and a 3-way internal crossover, as well as numerous EQ's.

Or I could put my brand new one up for sale with the Balanced Line Adapter and Commander :/

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A better HU is on the list but will have to wait. Going to dig around here and find a relay and see if it is coming through the trigger. This is a middle of the road Alpine cda 7837 and has good quality, not really sure why I'm getting this noise other than the amp. Running a crossover on it too that I know is clean and since its gain has no effect I am thinking maybe it is not in the RCAs. I had two other sub amps on it with this setup and have used this HU in another car with amps no problem.

I am collecting info on good HUs. I'd like an EQ, good D/A converter, time alignment, crossover, and would prefer a knob for the volume or at least better controls than this slow alpine. I have an old Sony that has great button controls compared to this. Also the tuner is not so good. Sometimes I go out in the sticks and the stock one was much better. But I'll do the 8s in front before the HU if I can't get the current ones to work, because this HU plays CDs nice and that is mostly what I use. It plays burned CDs ok, though sometimes it searches for a bit on the later tracks.

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I'm not entirely sure I'll like 8s and 1" on front....makes me want to stay cheap just in case and then I can do it sooner, but not sure. Also doubt I will put the whole 75wrms I have into them. Anyway, this tweeter from dayton seems to have one of the best graphs for off axis: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cf...tnumber=275-075 And I like this 8 but no graph, but has a higher range than most and has coated cone & rubber surround for more durability: http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_i...roducts_id=8189 There are a ton of 8" woofers that don't do midrange. The response of those full range 1" speakers looks nice for a tweeter but they are such low wattage. I also found a 2" dome that didn't do too bad in the upper ranges: http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_i...roducts_id=1373 an MB quart on sale really cheap. Not sure how it would work as a tweeter just two way. Don't think I have room for this 1 & 2" combo but it is kind of neat: http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_i...roducts_id=1482

I also have an old set of kenwood 4" comps I only used for a short time. They seem to use a tiny poly cone tweeter maybe <1.5" and a paper 4". I could use the tweeter I will look at the box it has a graph for them. Normally I hate bright kenwoods but they sounded much better than I thought they would...just no bass with the 4. I used them in a plate in the doors.

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Been super busy but got some things done, I put bolts between the subs on each side and rewired them to the bolts. I will make a panel to cover the top of the amp and wires I think. I have the front half of the car back together now just finishing the wiring in back so I can get the seat back in and pretty close to done now.

I cranked it up today and it trashed my battery pretty fast....but I got the 12s moving some and it hammers. Seems to have lots of power, subs are up half and HU is quite low yet....have some rattles in the back of car. Should be different with the seat in however. May need another battery of some kind. Going to swap 6x9 into rear doors and then do some deadening in the front and try to move tweeters to see how that works before I change the front stage out. Been really hard to work on it just too much other stuff to do, and not fun driving around with the car half apart. A Pioneer 880 went new for 275 shipped on ebay today, but not to me.

Also the noise issue went away when I put all the wiring in new. Not sure what happened as the old wiring (8ga) worked fine on two different sub amps and one was near as big as this one. It has 5ga now. Maybe it didn't like running only the sub part of the amp.

Edited by sqguyib

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I'm not entirely sure I'll like 8s and 1" on front....makes me want to stay cheap just in case and then I can do it sooner, but not sure. Also doubt I will put the whole 75wrms I have into them. Anyway, this tweeter from dayton seems to have one of the best graphs for off axis: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cf...tnumber=275-075 And I like this 8 but no graph, but has a higher range than most and has coated cone & rubber surround for more durability: http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_i...roducts_id=8189 There are a ton of 8" woofers that don't do midrange. The response of those full range 1" speakers looks nice for a tweeter but they are such low wattage. I also found a 2" dome that didn't do too bad in the upper ranges: http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_i...roducts_id=1373 an MB quart on sale really cheap. Not sure how it would work as a tweeter just two way. Don't think I have room for this 1 & 2" combo but it is kind of neat: http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_i...roducts_id=1482

I also have an old set of kenwood 4" comps I only used for a short time. They seem to use a tiny poly cone tweeter maybe <1.5" and a paper 4". I could use the tweeter I will look at the box it has a graph for them. Normally I hate bright kenwoods but they sounded much better than I thought they would...just no bass with the 4. I used them in a plate in the doors.

To me, your budget for your tweeter should be upped a little bit. While those Daytons look nice on paper, I am a bit skeptical that they will do what you need. How off axis are you going to mount them?

The CA21 isn't nearly as nice as the rest of the Seas drivers. I have read of a few people that weren't all that happy with them, on the other hand for the money I bet they are still pretty great.

Titanium domes, in particular from MB scare the heck out of me. I don't like my ears to bleed. I am not at all opposed to bypassing the tweeter altogether and running a two way with a 8" midbass and a smaller midrange though. You will lose the sparkle and pretty much need your mid closer to on axis, but I will say the most accurate sounding car stereo I have heard was not running tweeters.

That 1 & 2" combo just doesn't do anything for me. In a 3 way I want a lot more than a 2" mid.

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Thanks Crunch1, ///M5 I found a writeup on a Seas 27TBFCG I have scratched down here and it said they had a diffuser that improved off axis response. I can't find them for sale anywhere. Most of the Seas tested better in what I read, most were 27s.

So you think maybe a 2" mid and the 8? I like silk or otherwise soft dome 1" best in what I have installed before. I can put the tweeters at the side mirrors and more angle if smaller, maybe about at passenger head. If larger it would be harder to angle them unless I build something. With a mid, I would have to think on that not sure as they would not fit on mirror unless they were neo and then still not sure. Do they even make neo dome mids?

Yes I should not violate my #1 rule that front stage should be best equipment or equal quality to anything else in car.

Still working on the wiring mess in back. I don't know if my EQ is a line driver but I have the amp sub gain at half and I didn't even turn the deck up that far screwing around and got the roof to move...with the windows down, but had the sub gain on EQ all the way. Could hardly hear the mids....maybe I have too much sub...LOL! Another reason I put 4 in is I had level problems with the single sub boxes. I would turn it up loud and turn the sub up so it sounded nice....then when I turned it back down the sub would be way too much. I ran gains on amp and xover this way and that but could not get a match even swapping out sub amps. I am assuming I had to overdrive the single sub to get the output is the reason....but I never exceeded the sub's ratings or distorted it.

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Generically I'd have to recommend a full 3 way, but as I stated I have heard a setup that dropped my jaw with just a midbass and a 3" driver.

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What type of 3" was it? I got it back together tonight and it sounds good. The subs are just plain dominating when you turn them up...I think they re-adjusted my eye sockets and I still didn't have them wot and might never. The high side does not have a prayer of keeping up, but that way I have some room for music that is light on bass or recorded that way. Crossover is set at about 45 LPF and 80 HPF.

I'm not sure what the deal with the stage is, need to listen to it more. It sounds good, everything is there but it lacks the stereo separation it seems. The treble is good but if I crank the HU treble all the way it hardly gets louder. If I turn it down it goes away. Maybe it has to do with the Boston passive xovers, they do have an adjustment on them and I think it can go one louder on the tweeters but have to take door apart to do it. The tweeters from the kenwood comps I had in there before sounded better and more detailed. They are not domes, and not metal, looked like black poly cones...not sure what they are I'll dig up the box. They were fairly smooth and about 1".

I don't even hear that much roll off if I get down in front of the tweeters to sitting up. The tweeters are an inverted dome type pointing slightly upwards at a level of about the top of my leg almost to knee. The mid is just behind and under the tweeter. Maybe the kenwoods were just brighter and worked better lower like that, but they were not screechy I can't stand that. In fact the junk pioneers in the rear doors have more treble and sound pretty clear compared to the comps in front, I got in back and checked when I put the seat in.

Think I will take the front panels off and adjust that crossovers and put some deadening on the doors, seal it up better. Then I will swap the rear speakers and see what I get.

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Did some driving and got to put some time on the system, it sounded different maybe from more voltage of car running? It was brighter sounding, wonder if this is why kicker is called a value amp or what the deal was...it was not a big difference but it was different. I also had to turn down the sub gain more after a while to even it out. Got some brackets to mount the cap and then I can finish the power wires/cables. Working on a cover for end of amp too. Then I will deaden the doors and stuff....later I will figure out what to do with the stage. Pretty busy with summer stuff right now.

Looked at 3" full range but most have such a low power handling.

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Low power handling isn't that much of an issue if you are using them as midrange, as you do not need as much power to make those frequencies loud to the ear.

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As well as typically you aren't running them as low as they are rated which of course means more power handling.

I am answering your question, but not particularly recommending these drivers for your application. Again these were mixed with only some midbass and no tweeter which of course helps to have a "full range" driver. They were Fostex FF85k's run almost completely on axis off an old a/d/s amplifier. Processing was done by an H701 and I have no idea how much eq was being used, but nonetheless those little guys mixed with a midbass run to around 250k in the doors was his whole front stage. The stage cues, positioning, and frequency response was outstanding. Super natural and plenty of output. (do realize that I would never have need for dual 12's output wise so it may not be what you are looking for).

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Well it might be worth a try when I get to that. Looked at some fostex and TB that seemed most promising. Don't know if their wattage ratings are thermal or travel limited...assume they can take more when bass is not an issue but I was not sure. If I can fit it in there and it works, I don't really care what it is.

You mean he ran them down to 250Hz? Seems like one could use more of a sub with them than a woofer, I was figuring I could get up to at least 2kHz clean with a 8" woofer and more with the right one....unless that is not the way to do it.

I still have to listen to this more and figure out what is going on....you know let the new system sink in. Trying to verify if the kicker has any problems with quality on the high side at this point. Ran the same front boston comps on an old alpine amp before this and the sound is a little different. That would really PO me; I read up that this was a pretty good amp for the price, and got it so I could do away with multiple amps and mountings. Thought it would be clean at normal volumes. I am always amazed at how different amps sound different, always had to swap them out for what I wanted and that was my largest reservation in getting this 5ch amp.

Yes I might have gone too far with the 4 12s, it can really bang my head around when I dial it up. I thought 2 might not be enough so I ended up with 4. Was going to run 4 or 6 10" originally, but then everyone runs 12s and I found a deal on these. I know you will cringe, but if I had the time I would get a set of cheap subs just to try them. For normal listening this setup puts out too much bass and the lighter subs might work just as well. That loaded baffle was a heavy thing, more than I thought it would be. I don't like extra weight. My theory is that with the room multiple low/normal xmax subs will serve fine here instead of one/few more capable ones, and I don't want to attempt big xmax with IB since I have not heard much good about it.

Another issue is my limited eq abilities. I have a RF plate eq I can run but would need a rta to use it. Just have the alpine 190 on there now though at some point I will get a better HU to do all that. Thanks again for all the info, it is appreciated.

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