I'm here, catching up

[sqguy 0]

Not had time to mess with it, have to mod my kitchen for a new fridge. Found out the amp is only 40wrms x4 at 12.5v, no wonder it is so weak on highs car not running. Not sure what to do with that...highs need to be 2 ohms to keep up with the subs even half way, right now I can blow the highs right into submission with the subs quite easily....its not fair at all.

[sqguy 0]

Just a stupid question, but what if I move the tweeter in the door down and forward? I have it above the mid, I might be able to move it ahead and lower than the mid; it would be about 6-8 inches from the kick panel about level with the top of kick panel....maybe centered with bottom of mid. I might be able to angle it more there also, and I have good sight lines to that area though I need to check what a passenger would do...but I ride alone most of the time anyway. Better staging? Bad idea? Not going to make much difference? Yeah I was reading about how kicks can make a good stage but mine are tiny and whole footwell is not that big. I have always run dash or pillar, or top front of door tweeters, or had them by kicks as fill but not primary.

[sqguy 0]

Now that I have run it for a while I'm figuring it out. I think I am out of power on the subs; if you divide 420 into 4 thats 105wrms each and they are roughly 150 when IB...that is why they freak out well before xmax; the amp is clipping. Do not appear to have a power issue then either, but it is pretty loud in the car and tons of bottom like I wanted. Not near as loud outside the car, that surprised me. Oh yeah, you feel it.

What ticks me is if I had the time I would buy 4 cheap 12s I have run before for ~$100 and see how they worked. I might get to xmax on those and have higher efficiency....and they would weigh less in my car. Still not liking how heavy this setup with no box is....just didn't realize until I had them all mounted. Maybe a 15/18" or two would have worked, ah well 12s are cool and its done. This is the first time I have used 4 relatively high power subs IB at once, this kicker is junk or it certainly takes more to get them going...thinking the latter.

Still have the mid bass weakness even with both sets of 5x7. The comps don't have as much bass as the cheap ones in the rear...and those I taped the backs up so they didn't top out as easy. Have two different sets of better 5x7 or some 6x9 I can put in back but...not going to solve the problem anyway. I measured roughly and the rears are very close to the same distance to my ears as the front comps....I just keep them faded down a little. I can run it with the subs at higher Hz ok, they get a little directional but I would rather not.

Still think the 8s would be best in front hammering 100Hz like it should be, but mounting a mid/tweeter is going to be difficult in my stealth setup any way I do it. Otherwise I can try to deaden the doors, but doubt they will do what I need anyway. They sound good though, aside from my poor tweeter mount I will try to change when I deaden, they are very clean and smooth at any volume I can get out of 65/ch wrms they have. I would like to add the 8s to them really, but can't. Off axis seems good with the inverted dome tweets. I put in an old remastered VH CD and it rocked really nice...not much bass in it so I dialed the subs up but very clean sounding. Eddie sounded really nice.

My latest idea is still the 8s and then run two 2" each side instead of one 3". Looks like mounting would be better in the kick area. Maybe after all my summer stuff gets wrapped up I can get back to it...at least I have fairly good tunes now. I read someplace you should cut the highs out of all but one when you array small drivers...would that apply here? Yeah, now my microwave died too.

[ANeonRider 3]

3" don't need any room in the kick, mine didn't take up much useable room at all, and I can fit up to a 4.5" driver in there. I'd suggest that over 2-2" every time.

[///M5 2,833]

Holy crap, perhaps a bit less rambling and a bit more questioning would be good.

Your comment on 8's previously doesn't make sense. Why would you do a 3 way with 8's playing to 2kHz. In my book 300hz is plenty high for midbass. You really need a driver that can really put up from 30hz to 300hz for a midbass.

Why a 2" driver instead of a 3"? You wont' gain any high frequency extension and lose a ton of lower midrange. There really aren't any great performing 2" drivers that I have ever seen, unless you are referring to a dome and then it is really a big tweeter and also something I wouldn't consider ideal for a 3 way in a vehicle. The main goal is to get most of the audible spectrum to ocme out of a single driver.

5x7's are generically junk and will never do anything good for your system. A set of 5.25 components would have been 1000's of times better.

[///M5 2,833]

One other note, running multiple drivers covering the same frequency range in particular for midrange is a bad idea. Don't even think about it.

[ANeonRider 3]

Unless you can keep them within very close proximity & pathlength (ala, line array).

VERY hard to do in a vehicle, which is why you rarely ever see it (I never have), also considering you will have a bunch more phase issues than you already experience with normal configurations in a vehicle

[///M5 2,833]

Thanks for clarifying Scott, I definitely meant only for in car use. Different world when you can control your environment like you can in a house.

[sqguy 0]

I was reading on that array stuff, but a guy put two sets of 2" full range in his dash and said it worked well...I'll let it go if it's a problem.

Yeah windy post but thought I would post the issues I seem to have with the setup should someone else try it, if its any help.

If I ran 8s with the 5x7 then obviously they would just be a woofer but only room for one in there...not going to build that much stuff in this car. If I ran 2" I should be able to run an 8 up to say 1K with out axis issues right? It may be harder to get right. The 2" I found go up to 20K. I thought two sets because of the low wattage ratings but 3" is too.

Why do the 5x7 suck? They are the same $200 or whatever set as the 5.25 or 6.5/etc, should have 6" round cone area or so. I think they are just too small, I have never had a 5.25 that made any bass and lots of 6.5s are not that good either. You come off a good sub and tiny drivers can't keep up. No I never had comps that cost more than these....I'll use something else. I think most people cross the subs higher, then it is not such an issue. If I do that I might as well put 8s or 6x9 in the back deck as its already directional in the subs.

I'll find a way. I know an 8 will do it with ease but the 5x7 sounds great from 100Hz up. And if you mean oval speakers suck in cars, I've never seen it in the 20+ years I've done this. I think audiophiles just want something to point at. In the old days people didn't have subs and good 6x9 were required for any bass. I ran 8s full range and they sounded the same.

Or maybe I'm full of it and you know better, but that has been my experience. I want to get it close before I do any EQing so it has better balance, and don't have EQ in there yet. Maybe its just this car and its doors who knows.

[///M5 2,833]

Using an 8 with a 5x7 is not a good idea either again in a car the main benefit of using a dedicated midbass is to allow you to use a single driver that can play most of the frequency range while not giving up any midbass. What 5x7's are you using?

I'd also make a healthy wager that a single Seas W16nx midrange will completely destroy the midbass output of your 5x7's. Not even in the same ballpark.

[sqguy 0]

Boston Acoustics RC820 http://www.bostonacoustics.com/manuals/RCManual.pdf

I understand it would be stupid to use the comps with 8s when I don't need to; plus I'd have to HP the 5x7, BP the 8....no point to it and no room. If I want the 8 for bass I might as well run the 3 because you guys have done it and it works. I'll just have to hash out the install. Sounds like in the kicks is the best place? And I will need some good angle on them too.

Wow that is a mean Seas driver alright, for equivalent coin too. I have a 6.5 here but don't know what it is. It is no Seas like that one.

That Peerless SLS 8" and the Fostex FF85K look nice, or might have been what another guy used on here. TB has some nice 3" on paper that are cheap but how do they work? For SQ that 3 would be the most important driver in the car.

[sqguy 0]

How about that TB 8 on sale at PE, it has a 12mm xmax. But the qts is .30, vas .81cf....would it work IB in a small door with no enclosure? I was looking at ones that were qts ~.5 or better, or would it handle 75wrms or so...or sound like ****? Now they say the Q may not matter for IB, some work ok and they use them in HT. Also if it does not have to play under 50hz maybe it would have better control?

The SLS is qts .54 and 8.5mm xmax. The TB sure looks HD.

[///M5 2,833]

I'd put a lot of money on the Peerless being a much better midbass than the TB.

[sqguy 0]

Yes it looks more like a hardcore sub than a musical speaker, yet if the 3" runs down to 350Hz or so(?) then I don't need that musical of a woofer either like if it had to run up to 2K or more. Looking around, I'm impatient and keep having to spend on appliances lately. How about this dayton, the curve looks perfect it peaks at 90-100Hz but does drop like a rock by 500Hz....not sure if that would be good or bad but must put out serious midbass being that efficient at 100 Hz. It is peaky looking. Most of the woofer 8s are dropping fast at 100Hz and down so not likely to reach 50Hz that well. You don't get cabin gain on front door speakers do you? Seems like this one would be serious punch in the front doors, that would be strange. http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/295-545s.pdf

[ANeonRider 3]

Midbass is about as musical as a drum, the long pipes of an organ & bass strings get.

You want a midrange to play the most amount of musical information as possible, like I think I've said, my 3" midrange is playing 280Hz up to 5k, no problem. The midbass is there for the midbass (and forcefully too), most midbasses are located in the doors, so you want to keep its frequency bandwidth as narrow as possible to eliminate localization. The sub just fills in the VERY lows (45Hz & below).

My midbass also reaches low enough to not really need a subwoofer.... but I chose to anyways. Efficiency & frequency response depends largely in the installation as well. Cabin gain will transfer to anything that emits sound waves.

[sqguy 0]

ANeonRider, yes you are the one I have your project page saved here someplace...you have the SLS 8s that I am leaning towards. So far I think I can run an 8 like you are from 50 to ~300Hz, then a Fostex 3" hopefully all the way up with no tweeter if I kick mount and aim well according to ///M5. Later might add a small tweet if needed for 10K and up in kick or pillars....but the 3" will be the only major custom mount and hopefully not that visible.

Then the 4 12s will run under 50Hz, they work well there though I may change out drivers at some point...wanting less weight, maybe I should try two 15 IB since these 12s seem to easily handle anything this amp can give. That whole IB deal actually sets the back of the car lower and not liking that at all; rather have lighter subs that get closer to maxing out.

>> I see the SLS has a near flat curve from 70-600Hz but drops off a little faster under 70, slightly less peak db. The charts...the dayton and the TB have near identical curves actually, the charts are much different.

Edited September 11, 2007 by sqguyib

[sqguy 0]

How about this, I found a set of these dvc 8s in my storage room: http://www.radioshack.com/graphics/uc/rsk/...01027_PM_EN.pdf

I was told pioneer made optimus stuff but don't know, these look like old school IB subs and are about 20yr old still in box. On winisd in 2cf or more they show +6db at 60-70Hz, -3db at 40Hz, +1db at 200....kind of peaky. Had a set of old boston 8s I think I sold, can't find them, figures. Anyway, I could swap the 8s out later to better ones but get it running now just buying 3s if these 8s would work reasonably.

[sqguy 0]

Anyone see this new driver? http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/830970.pdf and http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_i...roducts_id=8267

What I was thinking if I ran 2 sets of 2" (instead of one 3") is to mount them together vertical and attach to/into kick panels. That way they could be angled/aimed to say between the front headrests and not take hardly any foot room in this smaller car. However this 2" may not have a power handling issue requiring double drivers. I do see a little bump at 3kHz....any comments?

Not had time to read up more on arrays...not that I want to really, but how do all these MTM speakers work then?

Might have to run the 8" up past 300 for a 2" though, not sure what effect that would have. Would it be better to get more of a sub 8 that rolls off as it goes by 300Hz and higher? Many of them seem to really roll off after peaking around a 100Hz and have a lot of db loss as frequency climbs. I am just *guessing* the 8 needs to hit 100Hz hard but not much above that...and could be completely wrong, then the flat curve like the SLS 8" would be better.

[sqguy 0]

Just way to busy to play with car but maybe soon with extended summer over, just have to clear other projects out of the garage. Anyway, I gave up on the weak midbass and turned my subs up high to cover for them, to * with directionality. I cranked the parametric around to boost the 30Hz pretty hard, that washed out the boom the subs will get at ~100Hz so response is smoother overall....sound is better.

I am half looking for a crossover that will bandpass 8s since I don't have anything that can.

[sqguy 0]

Ok got tired of that went the other way; turned the subs back low and just cranked the parametric at 90Hz to force the mids. It sounds better but this makes it painfully obvious that the kicker 700.5 is really weak on the 4ch part at 4ohms for my use. Just when the subs get to pumping in the bottom the high side just blows out bad with tons of distortion. It is not nice as I don't want to hear it or tear up drivers. Think one of the rears blew, but they are cheap 30 or 40wrms speakers. They were always turned down too but were pretty weak pioneers...I even taped up the back of them so they didn't top out. lol, oh well that was $12 shipped. I can even turn the subs off and the highs take a dump at the same volume on the HU, so I doubt it is a power issue.

So now I am going to bridge the 4ch to the front until I redo the doors, see what it does. Looking at some 8s but forcing myself to finish some other half done projects here before I start that. If I get 8s also have to do the mid/tweets at the same time plus get something to bandpass them on the kicker, I need a LP at 350 or so over that amp and HP the same for whatever amp is used on the highs. Looked at a coustic, xm6 I think it was. Have a 3way here but it only has a switch with 3 choices for frequency, a yamaha. I have a few amps I can use but none have a xover that goes above 200Hz or so if I use 3" for highs.

My battery must be ok, I played it the other night while working outside at a normal volume for 3 hours and car started fine.