mrd

Simple my ass. I'm not spending that much damn money. What exactly do you mean by L/R eq bands? Left and right? So you are running one of those equalizers that you can adjust 16 bands individually? Did you use one of those meters to tune it? The tubes are the most expensive part of this setup. The 12ax7 are only $12 each new... The problem comes with powering them off a battery. I have a vibrator to do it, but I just need two batteries then to obtain the required 24V for operation. Unless I can find a 12V vibrator for cheaper than a second battery... Why on god's green earth do you want tubes for a car?? Don't get me wrong I do enjoy them on the right full range horn configuration in a house, but a car?? Because tubes are awesome. And it would be fun. I like building stuff. Haha. Why would you want a $1500 system in your car? Same principle.

Alright. I will find a different tube to use. $1500 is a hell of a lot of money to put into something that some arseho could just drive away... I still disagree. IMO the stock hu is a poor choice (of course depending on which stock hu). What's the budget? A hu significantly better than stock will cost at least $250. Budget would be the deciding factor on whether or not yours will sound better than mine.

Simple my ass. I'm not spending that much damn money. What exactly do you mean by L/R eq bands? Left and right? So you are running one of those equalizers that you can adjust 16 bands individually? Did you use one of those meters to tune it? The tubes are the most expensive part of this setup. The 12ax7 are only $12 each new... The problem comes with powering them off a battery. I have a vibrator to do it, but I just need two batteries then to obtain the required 24V for operation. Unless I can find a 12V vibrator for cheaper than a second battery...

Couldn't tell you. I need to read more. What I do know is that I personally like rear fill (where there are only midbass speakers at lower output than the fronts). It just doesn't sound good to me with only a front stage. If you are trying to make music sound good, you don't want to electronically remove all the frequencies that cause "howl". It is easier and better sounding to just leave out the rears. How awesome does the pa system sound when music is playing through it anyway? It doesn't. Do you know anything about vacuum tubes? I am going to build a tube amp. I wouldn't use a 1/3 octave bin to remove feedback, but a narrow band. Your ears won't know the difference. The only reason you like rears is you haven't heard a properly setup front stage. Nearly everytime someone is in the rear of my truck they ask what speakers I have back there. When I say none, they crap. Wasn't hard to do either as my truck has a very budget friendly install. How did you setup your front stage? I am actually wanting to put a tube amp in my car. And if it doesn't work like I planned I will just use it for home audio...

Couldn't tell you. FCM knows. Ask him... I need to read more. What I do know is that I personally like rear fill (where there are only midbass speakers at lower output than the fronts). It just doesn't sound good to me with only a front stage. If you are trying to make music sound good, you don't want to electronically remove all the frequencies that cause "howl". It is easier and better sounding to just leave out the rears. How awesome does the pa system sound when music is playing through it anyway? It doesn't. Do you know anything about vacuum tubes? I am going to build a tube amp.

Speakers in the rear cause feedback through the mics. You don't have this problem in a car. Thanks for playing. EDIT: 3-d smilies are weird looking.

What 5.1 recordings? The P9 has an offboard processor. Not part of the h/u There is a dvd audio cd that came with the car that has kiss from rose and I don't remember what else is on it, but it has both the 5.1 recordings on it and regular cd recordings so you can listen to the difference back to back. I'm about to order the complex from blue man group though... it should be awesome. Usually the processing is done inside the hu which is why crappy hus produce crappy sound. So you are proposing rear fill and 5.1 for ONE cd? And its a demo. Nice logic. No I am not. I am proposing rear fill for cd and 5.1 for dvd audio or sacd. You still haven't answered my question... which furthers my belief that you truly don't know... If you would actually READ about dvd audio and sacd maybe you would understand that it is not a gimic. Because obviously you still think I'm an idiot.

What 5.1 recordings? The P9 has an offboard processor. Not part of the h/u There is a dvd audio cd that came with the car that has kiss from rose and I don't remember what else is on it, but it has both the 5.1 recordings on it and regular cd recordings so you can listen to the difference back to back. I'm about to order the complex from blue man group though... it should be awesome. Usually the processing is done inside the hu which is why crappy hus produce crappy sound.

But apparently not because m5 is telling everyone else otherwise... BTW m5, I just copied and pasted that link from my bookmarks page. Let's see, I can either copy and paste it or type out a synopsis... Let me think... You can go to hell. :ebeer: Certain cars come with 5.1 systems in them from the factory... but everyone says rear speakers make the whole system sound like shit... oh noes! What you people really don't understand is a case by case basis. You learn one thing and apply it to everything, which just isn't how it works... Maybe if you didn't think you were God of the car audio industry and actually think once in a while you might start to finally get it through your head what I am trying to tell you. But I guess I can't be that smart to challenge m5! Do you even know the reason that there are no rear speakers in concert halls? The reason that all the sound comes from the front? No need to get pissy and take this personal, not my fault you are a complete noob. As for myself, I am not a god, still learning. Lots to go. And the 5.1 systems in those cars was a MARKETING GIMIC. Answer the question, do you have ANY 5.1 recordings you listen to in your car? If not, why would you want a 5.1? How are you asking me about concert halls with fronts only when you promote rears? You also misjudge John's comment. He didn't say the headunit made the difference, but the processing in it. Perhaps you know of a "budget" headunit that has the processing power of the P9? Completely different beast. In this case that tuning potential is part of the install which I said the OP in the thread we are discussing needs to focus on and not waste his money on a headunit. Actually yes, I do have 5.1 recordings that I listen to... They are dvd audio. And it is not a gimic. It is legitimately awesome. How can the processing in a hu make a difference but not the hu itself? Different hu's have different levels of processing in them... I'm guessing the reason you never answered my question is because you don't know...

But apparently not because m5 is telling everyone else otherwise... BTW m5, I just copied and pasted that link from my bookmarks page. Let's see, I can either copy and paste it or type out a synopsis... Let me think... You can go to hell. :ebeer: Certain cars come with 5.1 systems in them from the factory... but everyone says rear speakers make the whole system sound like shit... oh noes! What you people really don't understand is a case by case basis. You learn one thing and apply it to everything, which just isn't how it works... Maybe if you didn't think you were God of the car audio industry and actually think once in a while you might start to finally get it through your head what I am trying to tell you. But I guess I can't be that smart to challenge m5! Do you even know the reason that there are no rear speakers in concert halls? The reason that all the sound comes from the front?

I may not know alot about car audio, but you 2 guys are idiots....there's no other nice way to put it. In another topic you suggested coaxials... If you have rear speakers set up in the way fcm suggested it sounds much much much better than running only the fronts. I prefer "rear fill", you may not. Speakers you think sound good, I may think sound like shit and vice versa. Theoretically for optimum sq, the tweeter should be placed as close as possible to the midbass, in a coax, they are directly in line so you have zero delay issues... probably not noticeable to 99.99percent of people anyway... Wrong again. You still have delay issues as the driving point of the drivers is not aligned (ie the motors). Having them on the same axis does something else, but since you know everything I don't have to tell you what it is. I feel sorry for you, you claim to like rear fill which obviously means you have never heard an SQ setup. Sure I realize that for some effects you can achieve this with rears, but instead of making it easy for you I'll just assume like everything else you know nothing about them. I do have a question though, what are the 0.01% of people going to notice? ie what will be different? You don't have to answer as I know you don't know the answer, but that's okay. I understand the internet. Here you go. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio-sq-forum/62850-tweeter-alignment-critical.html Rear speakers can = 5.1 or 7.1 if you hu is capable. But of course, I don't have to tell you any of this shit because you already know it. Because you know everything. It's ok. I understand. It's the internet.

I may not know alot about car audio, but you 2 guys are idiots....there's no other nice way to put it. In another topic you suggested coaxials... If you have rear speakers set up in the way fcm suggested it sounds much much much better than running only the fronts. I prefer "rear fill", you may not. Speakers you think sound good, I may think sound like shit and vice versa. Theoretically for optimum sq, the tweeter should be placed as close as possible to the midbass, in a coax, they are directly in line so you have zero delay issues... probably not noticeable to 99.99percent of people anyway...

We got off topic when eggy said sq not possible. We were only discussing the aspect of the amp. If you'll read fcm's post he stated that you can achieve sq without an amp, but with properly installed speakers, a good hu and sd. That is when eggy said basically that you would never get sq without an amp. You said huge difference "over 95dB." If you look at the dB chart, 95dB is equivalent to a hand circular saw at three feet. According to the same table 80dB is VERY LOUD road traffic. 95dB is much louder than I like to listen to my music. I'm not arguing that it doesn't make a difference at 95dB, it does, but I don't listen to my music that loud anyway. In my car, I upgraded my hu first. This made a ridiculous difference over the stock unit. I have a real hard time believing that if I amplified the stock signal I would have better sound than I do now. I then amplified my system. This only made a difference at higher volumes, much higher volumes, but now I don't have to turn my hu up as loud for the same "listening" volume and the sq is still the same when the settings are the same however, I now have the ability to change the frequencies that only the rear channel puts out easier. dude you said you could have a sq system with coaxials all around. how many sq systems are ampless? how many use rear fill? how many are passive? come on.. Why can't you? The point is it CAN be done and it is done. You even suggested coaxials to the op to run for better sq... all those 2-ways and 3-ways you were suggesting are coaxials...

We got off topic when eggy said sq not possible. We were only discussing the aspect of the amp. If you'll read fcm's post he stated that you can achieve sq without an amp, but with properly installed speakers, a good hu and sd. That is when eggy said basically that you would never get sq without an amp. You said huge difference "over 95dB." If you look at the dB chart, 95dB is equivalent to a hand circular saw at three feet. According to the same table 80dB is VERY LOUD road traffic. 95dB is much louder than I like to listen to my music. I'm not arguing that it doesn't make a difference at 95dB, it does, but I don't listen to my music that loud anyway. In my car, I upgraded my hu first. This made a ridiculous difference over the stock unit. I have a real hard time believing that if I amplified the stock signal I would have better sound than I do now. I then amplified my system. This only made a difference at higher volumes, much higher volumes, but now I don't have to turn my hu up as loud for the same "listening" volume and the sq is still the same when the settings are the same however, I now have the ability to change the frequencies that only the rear channel puts out easier.

So for the poster on the other site with a Crower stage 3 wanting a little more out of his headunit you truly think this is the case? Let's look at this objectively. That car is going to have a noise floor in the 85dB range. In order to have ANY acoustic separation you need to be 10dB > than the background noise. This puts us at 95dB which will be a level that is not "more" per his request, but either way we'll use it. A normal set of speakers is around 88dB efficient. To reach 95dB we will need to be putting >4w to the speakers to get them there. So at this "low" volume you really think that a h/u will sound just like an amplifier? Obviously not. Go to Best Buy and listen to a $200 boombox at 4w and then listen to a $200 amp at 4w and tell me there is no difference. No where did I even come close to saying that there would be NO improvement with a different source, just that it fundamentally isn't the reason for sounding bad. The amplifiers in h/u's are a complete joke, and this isn't at all about output but about quality. Dynamic capability, headroom, components that don't color the sound, and a decent power supply are all required for "SQ" but with your experience this should really be obvious to you already...that is unless you've never done a comparison and are blindly recommending what you have and not what you have experienced. Eggy may not understand, but at least he is trying to by actually reading things from people that do. I can't say the same about you. I would like to know in what events did mrd act as a "judge"? hard to believe he was ever involved in anything SQ I was never a judge. That was the other guy. The point is sq CAN be achieved without using an external amp. That is the only point we were trying to make, not specifically in regards to the op on ht, but merely because eggy said it was impossible to achieve sq WITHOUT an external amp. Either you don't know what the exact argument is, or you've never tried it. One of the two...