DevilDriver

Why are you wanting performance slower than the speed of sound? For infrasonic sound (below 20 Hz), the big thing you need to look for is just raw displacement: move a lot of air. Two ways to increase displacement: better coupling (ie. more surface area) or greater amplitude of oscillation (ie. more throw). To gain surface area, you want a large cone and anything else that will help, including ports, passive radiators, or clever loading techniques. To gain throw, that's a function of the motor and suspension and not always simple or inexpensive. So assuming we have the drivers and enclosure to do it, you need to make everything else is in place. You'll find a lot of electronics have rolloff in the infrasonic range, especially down below 10 Hz. And once you have all that in place, you have to make sure your room can take it. I can tell you that just a single 15" LMS-Ultra has been brutal on my basement....to the point that I have unhooked it for now.

I don't know anything about getting iron out of your water, but I do know how to use google. Does this answer any of your questions? http://www.doityourself.com/stry/ironinwater

Tru = overpriced everything

True that.

Ah, you posted it already.

Jag bombs.

The Audiomobiles claimed an xmax of 25mm+/-. The Haxos say about 18mm. Is that due to the coil or motor? Both? I wonder what kind of results I will get. I don't know their exact top plate geometry so it is risky to say, but I'd guess that the coil on the Mass is much shorter than the one on the Haxos; this is also evident in their BL^2/Re. A shorter coil on an underhung driver typically means more Xmax: Xmax is roughly equivalent to the height of the top plate minus the height of the coil divided by 2. It also typically means less L in BL as L refers to the length of coil in the gap. Just a relatively educated guess.

The Haxo subs are identical to the old Crystal Mobile Sound drivers. eD says they're made in the US, but at the very most, they're assembled in the US and I'm not completely sure of that, either. Could be wrong. The extra clearance isn't really a big deal because it's an underhung design and most of the travel is in the gap.

red Gatorade tastes so delicious though I don't really like it. I've never really enjoyed the flavour of Gatorade or Powerade, thus why it is easier for me to crucify them. I like milk, beer, coke, and iced tea. Probably in that order, too.

Glad I'm not too far off here, I hoped it came across as a value point more than sheer performance. While some companies simply do have better products than others, that's not to say that it necessarily will be the underground. I run Fi subs, but Memphis amps. I was originally going to run SoundStream 10,000s till I bought one offline and had it burn up the second it was installed (Installed properly, the moment the vehicle was turned on Something was wrong internally- maybe damaged during shipping that caused parts on both sides of the board to burn up.) Memphis had a good warranty and could be bought at the local shop for a good price. After problems with the seller who UPS returned the amp to and he kept the money severing all contact with me and this forum, (you SOB Jordan Singleton), I trusted the local shops amp better than another one purchased offline. Ahem....Great Soundstream products as usual. I wouldn't own anything made by Soundstream in the last 5 years...even going back further than that, I'd really only be interested in the old Refs. There are lots of good mainstream companies out there, but some of them aren't quite as motivated to make excellent products because they've already got a name. Especially when these companies have gone from the hands of credible engineers and audio enthusiasts to the hands of larger corporations looking to bleed the money out, ie. what's happened to Soundstream and PPI. Or they get into tight financial positions and can't afford to innovate anymore, ie. MTX and Rockford. Of course, MTX and Rockford are improving now, while Soundstream and PPI will probably never be the same. edit: You mentioned Memphis...they are in a decent position because, from what I understand, they have been able to keep overhead low, accept lower margins, and sell at a lower cost, making them a better value buy for most customers...which is what most are looking for, anyways. They aren't really pack leaders in performance, either, but they don't need to be at the prices they're sold at. Could be wrong on some of this stuff...it's just what I have observed. edit 2: I have to give Memphis credit because I totally forgot about some of the new things they've been working on. Though not the first to get involved, there is nothing wrong with attacking the full range class D area...and I think they have a couple shallow-mounts on the horizon, too.

It's a TC-9 motor so it is definitely reconable...but you won't be getting back anything close to a Mass with the switch to the overhung coil. What the new Xmax, Qts, Qes, Re, BL etc. would be depends on the coil they put in there. But you won't be getting a Mass back.

They said they would rebuild with an overhung coil? What's the point in that? I'd go eD, too, if that is the case.

99% sure they are more expensive than going through Fi, if that bothers you. I think going rate at eD is something like $100+shipping (depending on the parts) while the rate at Fi is something like $85 + shipping. And with Scott and co, you get someone who really knows how to engineer and build speakers.

I agree with you, and see your point 100%. There are only a handful of people on this forum, and not a whole lot in general who could give a real break down of what makes driver X sound Z (louder, clearer, etc) over driver A. I am not one of them, but I think the OP was really looking for a more general response and just light conversation. I coud be wrong thats the thinking my response is based on. I agree with most of your post. There is simply better value and better support amongst these "underground" companies. Not necessarily better performance, though (quite different than value) as both parties are equally capable of making a good product. My post was aimed at Lord Baccus who thinks all JL Audio products are garbage and sound like wet farts.

For the record...JL Audio's price comes from their performance. In engineering circles, they are highly respected by almost everyone and, for the most part, well ahead of their time. So there is some justification of price. Funny thing about a W7 in a car....most times, you are best off EQ'ing the low end response down before you start getting frustrated with how it sounds. Has anyone here who dislikes the sound of a W7 heard one in a home?

That is completely possible. That doesn't, however, mean that they sound like a wet fart...it means you heard an install that sounds like a wet fart. This hass been the whole point I have been trying to make for a few posts now...maybe you're hearing a sound you enjoy, but I doubt you know what the cause of this sound is...and thus, drawing a correlation between what you hear and what is used to make the sound is not something that you (or many people) should make. There are extremely few people that can honestly sit in a vehicle and compare products one on one because they just don't understand what makes one end result different than the other. I think I'm close but I'm not there yet.... edit: I will use the "hamburgers cooked medium rare" part you mentioned, since it also relies on an interpretation or use of the senses. Let's say I pass you a plate with a hamburger on it. The hamburger meat has had various non-visible additives included. All you've got to go by is taste. Let's say you don't enjoy the taste of this hamburger...is it the meat at fault? Maybe it's one of the additives...but which one? How do you know? Can you draw a direct conclusion on the meat's quality based on the taste if you don't even know what differentiates the taste of one hamburger from another? If I served you 10 hamburgers (5 of which were cooked medium rare) with a blindfold on (and all hamburgers sitting at the same ambient temperature), would you be able to pick out which ones were cooked medium rare every single time? What if they all had different spices and additives? I'm getting too hypothetical now (probably throwing myself on my own sword), but the point has been made.

"Coach, I think I ate too much mud."

Gatorade is a joke. It's sugar and salt. They get by claiming it's so much better for you than other things....but it's just sugar and salt. In fact, water is better for you for regular exercise.

Dude! They said nothing like you've been saying. They said that JL Audio makes good quality equipment but that they could get something as good at a lower price. You said JL Audio is garbage, everything they make breaks, and that everything they make sounds like a wet fart. I asked what makes them sound like a wet fart...you said poor quality product. Can you specify? What specifically causes this sound, in terms of part selection, geometry, etc?

There is definitely a difference between listening at the instrument and listening in the audience. <<< Pianist & guitarist....hoping to be a cellist soon.

Time for bed.

Yeah. Dylan was on a few forums begging for Zaph's email so he could send it to him.

1. If you believe that JL Audio has poor craftsmanship, cheaply made parts, and bad assembly, you are clueless with respect to real speaker engineering and building. 2. You didn't answer my question. You just repeated what you said in question 1. 3. JL Audio is a world renowned company in almost every circle, including circles of people who know what they are talking about. I have met way more people who are satisfied with JL Audio than people who are dissatisfied. Bonus - Again, I ask: if all JL Audio subs sound like a wet fart, what is the cause of that sound? I'm not asking why people buy them...I'm asking why they sound so terrible...what causes this sound?

I have 15K on another board. A few thousand on a collection of others.

3 Simple Questions 1. What caused failure in these drivers? Was it thermal or mechanical? Or is it simply a case of poor glue joints? 2. If every JL Audio speaker you have listened to was "blown or broken", wouldn't that explain why they sounded poor? 3. Why does your experience differ from most? Bonus Question You mentioned all the JL Audio subwoofers you've listened to sounded like a wet fart. Putting the legitimacy of this statement aside, what is the cause of this sound?