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on a sub channel at 0db test tone i would turn the gain to the point of roughly 10% clipping. or to say that i would set gain until i start to see a small trace of square at the top. check VA and calculate 10% over that. for a mid or tweet i would stop turning the gains up as soon as i see the peaks going flat. in a sub i care its clipped due to thermal capacitance issues, burning up a coil or such. on mids or tweets i would worry about distortion in music

speaking of single specs... is the rule about qts true? how you can tell if the driver wants to be sealed or ported based on this data point?

ok, if i am comparing speakers is winisd a decent tool for me to use to see how a raw driver sounds? i understand boxes, cabin gain, positioning all plays a large part but to just try and compare a vs b vs c. so if I'm browsing 10" woffers on parts express i would like to have an idea of which one would be loud and still sound clean

that may be true but ive got to start some where, ive had 5 years of audio work and been told 10 different ways under the sun to do single tasks. i want to put what i think i know into practice.

when the wave form is no longer smooth its clipped right? when its flat on the top and bottom the signal is clipped

how did you manage to get equidistant positions? in mine i have about 4.5 ft to one driver and 1 ft to the other...

when someone says audiophile i think of focal utopia's, those are very clear to me BUT i cant tell the difference from those vs a set of 500.00 hertz... so i think the ultra expensive audiophile grade would be wasted on me. i don't want just loud, i want a system that can get very loud, have a lot of bass but also be 'even' for lack of a better word. i want to be able to hear all the notes, instruments, vocals, with out having the one note wonders so many systems have or with out one group of frequencies overpowering the rest. i need a dsp because i want to be able to EQ and setup staging so the audio sounds more like I'm at a concert than just sitting in a car. my truck is very loud to start with (about 80db at idle) so i need more power than the average car just to over come the engine. i listine to everything from classical to dub step to rock and rap, I want a system that is well balanced. when i have installed focal KRX3's i have always been disappointed in midbass, pretty much every single car i install in i am disappointed with midbass response so that's why i was focousing on that first, trying to determine what exactly i would need to get the volume. I'm also not looking to spend a crap load of money, others at my shop have spent 15K plus on just the speakers. i just want a decent system for around 1500 bucks and given the accommodation prices i thought tahts doable but i find myself questioning the speakers. it seems every time i come on here i feel like I'm up a creek with out a paddle. i was thinking, you said that given what I'm after you wouldn't use car audio drivers. why is that? what is it about car audio drivers vs home or pa that places the car versions in the not worth while category?

am i understanding the following correctly? if you have two speakers of the same size and similar vas +/-5%, could one safely say that the sensitivity and power would determine how loud they can get if installed in the same manner? that is to say a 90db sensitivity @ 100W would be about 110db where as a 20w at 90db would be 104 ish?

there are a handful of car audio speakers, if i open things up to parts express and other brands there are a plethora of speakers. i don't really know what to choose, there are too many options... car audio speakers are 100 or so watts, most of the parts express are 15 or so watts, I'm having a hard time correlating what will be loud and sound decent to the specs. i realize there is more to it than just watts, its just an example. at the core of it how do the car audio speakers differ from the home audio speakers? lets leave the PA stuff out but just talking about say a 8" jl ZR midbass compared to a 8" midbass that you might find in your 100.00 tower speakers? neither one is running IB and yet car audio speakers retail is 3 or more times the cost of a home audio speaker. whats different?

ive never had the chance to really tune or build a full system like the one I'm planning to do in my truck. i do not like audison dsp's as i hate their setup process, i don't really care for the jl tweak as its pretty cookie cutter, cant even choose between types of xovers. the mini dsp was very good imo but isn't accecptable to have in a car i might show off at work. the mosconi however is one i havnt owned yet and would like to try out

fair enough, i do like how the Rockford amps look tho and from the specs they seem pretty good amps no? i think they are (considering price) some of the best amps we carry at our store. i had the mini dsp and i loved it, however it was VERY STRONGLY frowned upon at work and i doubt they would let me put in an order for our higher end speakers if they knew I'm pairing it with a chinesium dsp. add to that ive already used one i would kinda like to try something different. the mini dsp i would need is a 8 output channel so its about 300.00 or so which is still a great price but i get the glazden for +/- that same price so its a wash.

from what i understand the closer the mid/tweet are to each other the easier it will be to tune staging with them and the less group delay (i think its called) i would need to account for. with out going back and reading what i intended to say was the mids/tweets would more than likely be on axis to the driver and the midbass would be kind of the entire door, given I'm looking at 8-12" midbass it will be position in the forward/bottom/middle 2/3 of the door. the a pillar is where most of my coworkers put there's but i intend to have this taken up with gages and such. the doors however sit about 4" below shoulder level for me and have more than enough room to allow for a stacked mid/tweet configuration. i would put them both in pods there. i think that would be as close to optimal location as i could get in there? the other options i would have are a pillar which would bring the sound forward and wouldn't allow for a vertical configuration or IN the dash firing at the windshield for the mids and tweets int eh a pillar and for that i don't know if i could dsp that to sound good, the reflections off the glass like that, idk how to account for that. i want to use car audio drivers because we sell them and id like to show them off, years ago i had bought some drivers from parts express to play with and they sounded good but at the end of the day i can get car audio drivers cheaper AND its a selling point to boot. i had thought of pointing the drivers at the opposing seats up front (driver to passenger and vice versa) and tuning with the 30 degree off axis so i could swap listening positons but the most volume would be from on axis so i think that's what id want to do. i am looking at the hertz because i like the color of their sound, they have good excursion, and at 90db/1m\w and 100W rms, on paper they should be the loudest speakers that we sell at the store. they also have the frequency range that id be operating in as well. with the mid bass in the door why would that change its response that much? if its playing up to say 400hz it would still be Omni directional audio to our ears no? and its no where near beaming yet on a 10 or 12" driver. I'm trying to explain what i think and why so you can understand where I'm coming from and have the most information to tell me where I'm wrong and more importantly why I'm looking at things the wrong way.

yea i remember you telling me years ago about your crazy equipment. some day id live to sit down and pick your brain about audio, i feel like the field I'm in is so muddied with information that its hard to see which way is up some times. a pure sine wave has a smooth wave form, it has the best clarity of audio possible. a clipped wave is when the peaks/vallies are flat. the amp does not have enough VA to keep the driver excursion power linier or to stop the drivers inertia from carrying it out of spec with the signal source. this can lead to audible distortion and also can thermally overload a transducer if too much clipping is allowed. when i find a clipped wave i consider what type of driver it is, what the amps max output is intended to be and also what the source is. e.g. if I'm using a -10db test track and i get clipping then i know there are times the customers music may extend the equipment farter than i am while testing. if they like normal country music and have a driver with some thermal head room it may not be an issue and perhaps i use a -3db or a 0db test but if they like dubstep with +20db preboosted bass and what amount to 30 second long test tones in the music; i would consider either recommending upgraded equipment to get them more bass or keeping the gains lower on this setup to prevent failure of the sub. (this given that mecp allows for up to 10% distortion on a sub) if testing for mids/highs the starting tone attenuation would change. after using these test tones i would play with the customers music and see just how much clipping there actually is and readjust from there if needed as for pure voltage its one or the other at the shop, if we scope tune clipping gains then we don't use voltage but if we measure voltage we use that to place the amp at about the output its rated at. (target voltage). most of who i work with consider target volting an amp an incorrect way to setup a system and oscoping to be the only real way to configure amp gains

yea this is circa 2005 gaming right here... very different animal

anyone here play swat 4 on the PC? just got the game again and am playing through it

ive used that one and it is good, i was lucky enough to get a 20 hour long hands on training with the tuning support team here in the states a few months back however so I'm biased towards the glazden as i really want to play with it.

i do not like the audison setup and we frequently have bit ones loose their settings. not a fan. i had never used a 360 however and from what i hear they are terrible so i think ill stay away. thinking ill go with the 8-12 gladden pro dsp now that ive done some more research into it and prices.

point of inquiry - having a rough idea of where speakers are going to go, until i choose a driver and try it i wouldn't 'know' how it will sound. the only way i know to do this is trial and error with speakers and placement until it sounds the way i want

i was trying to do Rockford so i only need to make a single accommodation order and i like how their amps look and sound, not the same high end specs as a mosconi but given my application that wont matter. also they fit well into my budget. i think I'm going to do the glazen 8-12 pro dsp, its cheap and i think the aerospace is more than i need. i like its setup utility and its ability to use all pass filters

i am putting the tweets and mids next to one another (tweet above the mid) in the top corner of the door, the a pillars will not have speakers. i plan to place the passenger side at a slight angle facing the driver and the driver side at a sharper angle to either face on axis or 30 deg off axis. i wont know how this sounds however until i have them mocked in and test it.

i get it, just trying to follow. ok so i measure on the oscope and when it goes flat it is "clipping" right? so the intent is to measure this so you know that the signal is clean and no distortion from clipping is affecting music quality. if i am scoping a factory radio that shows a square wave at half volume i would know to setup the amps (gains) to match the mid way point of the radio. i measure output voltage to know the power I'm pushing, size of wire needed, know if a speaker might get damaged, etc. some times we set gains via target voltage?

yea it may, moving from midrange driver to sub is a big change as far as construction. i threw the Rockford into winisd and ill be damned if it wants to play anything over 190hz with any volume at all. the infinity refrence line holds a pretty nice curve all the way through 400hz. once i get some drivers that look ok on paper ill throw em in a box and see what i get sealed vs ported. after looking around i think the 3" and 1" mid/tweet from hertz is what I'm going to go with for my other 2 speakers. they can get killer loud on paper, good brand, good quality, and my co worker has some (not installed) that i can hook up on the board and test the sound of. makes things easier

I'm planning out a build that is using lots of Rockford parts, the 360 is an old dsp right? has anyone got experience with this guy and is it worth buying these days when you have new tech like JL fix, aerospaces, or helix? the aerospace allows for all pass filters i could use to help fix phasing issues, what other DSP's allow for this?

i kinda like the idea of trying that... its rare to see, challenge to build, and unique... lol. I'm looking at the P3 and T1 slims at the moment online, i think the T would be a waste tho as its built with more Xmax and power handling that isn't needed for the frequencies i intend to use it in. the subs are stupid cheap (less than a crachendo 10"...) so maybe ill just grab one and see how it sounds in a box at work, guess i could put it in my truck to see how the cabin gain is at those freqs. there really isn't much to rattle in this truck, you may be right that the doors would make noise but the sp4 i had in there didn't do much in the way of rattles (compared to trunk lids that is). if i did that i wonder if i could make the hertz mili legend 3" match that volume... guess i wont know that until i know how loud the P3 might be

measuring output? you mean voltage? i feel that my brain may be turned off to some of this... so say i measure off an rca preout and see a clean signal, that signal is .8V max lets say. i then go to the amp and turn its gains up until its signal is not clipped or clipped to 10 ish % or until the voltage out matches what the "rated" power of the amp ought to be.