Impious

Purchase a pre-built component set. Do not try to build your own, which is what it appears you are trying to do. With your experience level, "active" would not be a good option either. Just purchase a normal component set, it will be the easiest and best performing option for you. You could then bridge the amplifier, run one pair of bridged channels to the left passive and the other pair of bridged channels to the right passive. Also, having an 8ohm mid and 8ohm tweeter on a passive crossover does not equal a 4ohm load....it would be an 8ohm load.

Pretty sure those are just TC 4HP motors, maybe minor modification. They are very strong motors, which typically means very low Q. Large 4" diameter coil can be both good and bad depending on circumstances and your viewpoint on things. Sounding "good" is going to depend on your preference and what parts are ultimately used to rebuild it. Shouldn't be hard to make it loud though. Part of the problem is that you are going to be reconing the driver with as yet unknown parts....we can't tell you how a driver will sound when we don't know anything about it yet. Just knowing the motor doesn't tell us anything about what the final incarnation of the driver will be. Is it possible to make it listenable? Sure. Is it possible to turn it into a fart cannon? Sure.

Do we have a troll smiley? If not we need one.

While it's true that the impedance will rise very high in impedance on the graph, it's not necessarily true that there will be a dip in response as the point(s) where this occurs. As correctly explained, the impedance graph is simply a representation of the driver's impedance across the frequencies. A few things can be found out from an impedance graph. This is a quick but not comprehensive list of some of the things an impedance graph can tell us. First, there will be a large peak in the impedance. This big peak defines the resonant frequency (Fs) of the driver. If impedance spikes at 25hz, then the Fs of the driver is 25hz. The impedance at Fs (25hz in our example) may spike up to 30ohm or more. This very high impedance at Fs means the amplifier's output will drop substantially. So why is there not a huge drop in output at that frequency? Pretty simple, the driver doesn't need as much power at Fs as it does elsewhere. The driver will naturally resonate at Fs, so it doesn't take much power to get it going. The shape of this large impedance peak will be determined by the Q of the driver (Q describes the various damping characteristics of the loudspeaker at resonance). If you were so inclined, you could calculate the Qms, Qes and Qts from the impedance graph. More specifically, you can calculate the various Q parameters from the size and shape of the impedance peak at Fs. Minimum impedance is also shown on the impedance graph and is important to know, especially in situations where amplifiers can not handle low impedance loads. For example, in home audio a lot of amplifiers (especially those in receivers) may not be able to handle loads below 4ohm or 8ohm. So if the minimum impedance of the driver drops too low during a critical range, it may be a load too difficult for the amplifier to handle. Another thing to look for, which is less applicable to subwoofers and more towards higher frequency related drivers, are ripples in the impedance away from the big spike at Fs. If there are ripples in the impedance that indicates there are some type of resonance issues with the driver at the frequency where those ripples occur. A common issue, for example, would be cone breakup. Cone break up can create a small ripple in the impedance graph. Also the impedance graph will indicate the inductance of the voice coil. The inductance limits the high frequency response of the driver. As frequency increases above Fs the impedance will be relatively flat for a while, and then gradually start to rise. What frequency the impedance begins to rise and how quickly it rises are determined by the inductance of the voice coil. If you pick some points off of the impedance graph, you can go back and calculate the inductance of the voice coil. This is a situation (unlike Fs) where rising impedance will cause the response of the driver to begin to fall. This is because the inductance limits the ability of the driver to react to changes in current, so the driver can't adequately respond to the signal at those higher frequencies....so the response will begin to drop off. You can also tell some other things from an impedance graph of the loudspeaker in an enclosure. For example, you can determine the tuning frequency of a ported enclosure from the impedance graph. Resonance issues in the enclosure can show up in an impedance graph. You can apply a lot of the same analysis to describe the behavior of a loudspeaker in a sealed enclosure as you can to the driver in free air. Etc Etc. So, overall there are a lot of information in that impedance graph. Most of it isn't extremely relevant to the weekend warrior, however.

Actually our hearing becomes less sensitive in the lower frequencies. Starting around 1khz our hearing becomes gradually less sensitive as frequency decreases, which in turn means the lower frequencies are perceived as less loud to the ear for a given SPL. In regards to the stress on the surround; a good design will deal with this issue. You can see how Kicker deals with it simply by looking at the driver and the shape of the surround at the corners. A well designed square sub shouldn't be any less reliable than a round one.

First, different isn't always better (or good). Second, it's pretty obvious you are in waaayyyyyy over your head. You don't have the knowledge to meet your goals. That's understandable. Everyone has to start somewhere. The Mona Lisa wasn't Davinci's first painting. But instead of getting pissy and going ahead with your plans (which won't achieve what you are looking for).....why don't you take a step back, slow down, relax, and let us help you choose a system that will actually meet your goals. That is a far better option than wasting the time and money installing a system that isn't going to achieve your goals and, on top of that, will perform very poorly. You had a good first step and tried to implement the advice you received from your other thread. The problem is your execution still is wrong. Which wouldn't be a big deal and we could still help guide you in the right direction if you weren't in such a damn hurry. But it sounds like you'd rather have a poorly performing system tomorrow instead of a good system a week from now.

In his defense, it sounds like he tried to take the advice.....he is reducing the # of speakers he plans to use. He just didn't formulate a very good plan to follow from there.

You do realize we're trying to help you, right? There are much better options to achieving your goals. But if you would rather go about it entirely the wrong way, good luck with that.

Soooo......what happens if I design an enclosure with no peak? Yeah, what he said.. Hell if I know My point was that the enclosure tuning has more important implications than where the enclosure will "peak" (since, ideally it wouldn't have a peak unless you were intentionally designing it to do so for specific purposes). The other important factors are related to cutoff frequency, cone excursion behavior, damping characteristics, impedance response, etc.

Who told you this was a good idea? You are going to run a 10" driver designed to be a subwoofer up high enough in frequency to mate with a supertweeter? What is the Le of the driver?

This is where we are tempted to respond with "Great! Then keep yourself on those forums that way you're their problem and not ours". I don't see where that question was ever asked. I see random thoughts from the mind of Kryptonite, a question about spiders, then some quotes from Scott @ Evo & Scott @ Fi, followed by your complaining about being broke.....and then finished it off with probably the truest statement your fingers have ever typed. I don't see a question about gap sizes or motor comparisons. So, despite the thread title, the only question I see that you actually posed was in regards to spiders, not motors. You posted some quotes from a discussion about motors, but you didn't actually post a question relating to the motors. You asked a question about spiders. To answer your question with a question.......what in the hell is it that you actually want to know. You ask a question about spiders, but want answers about motors? It sounds like you want someone to design an entire subwoofer for you that will hold up to your abuse. The simple answer is; stop abusing shit. You shouldn't need to stupid-proof the subwoofer. There are obviously larger issues involved which are not related to the subwoofers, the subwoofers are just the victim. But from all of your previous threads it seems you have a sense that you already know everything you need to know about achieving your goals. So you should be able to figure this one out on your own, since most of our suggestions will fall on deaf ears anyways. You complain about our responses; think about your questions, posts and threads.....maybe it'll become a little more clear as to why our responses are what they are. You ask for advice, don't take it and get pissed off, then come back complaining when shit breaks. We give more advice, you don't take it and complain that we're being pricks, you break more shit and then come back complaining about it....and the cycle repeats again. You should realize by now the problem lies with you; not us.

Soooo......what happens if I design an enclosure with no peak?

Will need T/S parameters to assist you. Impossible to help without them.

Mpyre isn't around any more as far as I know. The drivers were essentially just Adire Extremis. There may have been minor changes, I don't recall. But they were basically OEM'd Extremis. If you are simply looking for high excursion 6.5-7" drivers, there are other options: Ascendant Audio Carbons (don't see them on the website, but believe they're available.) CSS SDX7 (currently out of stock) Exodus Audio Anarchy Or you can look for some used Adire Extremis, Mpyre's still pop up in the classifieds or Ebay, used AA Poly's, etc.

I don't believe T/S have been posted, but from the way he talks I wouldn't be surprised if these are much more similar to a standard car audio driver (high'ish Q, medium Fs, moderate sensitivity) than a true pro audio driver.

There are really two viable options. Don't run the 8's and use the 6.5's as midbass as they're intended to be used in the comp set. Run active and replace the 6.5" midbass with an 8" midbass. I wouldn't add the 8" inbetween the 6.5" and subwoofer, that's a headache and a bit of a waste. Obviously there would be advantages to using an 8" midbass such as the potential for increased output and possibly decreased distortion, but there are disadvantages as well such as complicating the system and needing to run active. I run the same components. The 6.5's are pretty good drivers, they have a very deep almost subwoofer like tone to them, which I personally like. Unfortunately I have a terrible resonance due to my installation location so the EQ takes most of that tone away in dealing with that resonance. They have about as much output as you can expect from a 6.5" medium excursion driver. I would suggest you try the comp set as it is and see what you think.

Sounds like a poor implementation to me, and a waste of space and resources. Why do you think you need something to "bridge the gap" between the W7 and the Bravox?

Did you, by any chance, find out which Legatias they were? As you know, they have 5 stages, the higher the stage (level), the better the speaker is. L1, L2, L3... etc Not the way their nomenclature works. The "L" indicates it's part of the Legatia product line. The number following the "L" tells you the diameter of the driver. L1 = 1" tweeter, L3 = 3" midrange, L4 = 4" midrange, so on and so forth. There is no L2 as there's no 2" driver in the Legatia line. They have what they call five "stages", which just means they have five different product lines with each line being progressively better than the previous. The Imagine series is their entry level product (stage 1), Clarus is the mid level line (stage 2), Legatia is their mid-high end line (stage 3), Legatia SE is a little higher end (stage 4), and Legatia Pro is their highest level product (stage 5). The Legatia SE and Pro are designated as such in the model name....L3 is their standard 3" midrange in the Legatia line, L3SE would be a 3" midrange from the Legatia Special Edition line; L1 would be the 1" tweeter from the standard Legatia line, L1Pro would be the 1" tweeter from the Legatia Pro line, etc.

Were you looking to get them reconed back to original specifications, or just get them reconed so that you have a working sub?

I don't think anyone here is trying to claim they "know more" than the designers or try to prove that as their point. But we don't need to know more than them, we just have to know the intended purpose of the device......which we do. I don't think anyone here is trying to "downtalk" someone else's invention, but rather discuss the potential benefit of such a device. Just because someone produces a product, it doesn't mean everyone has to agree that it has a potential benefit and is worth a purchase. People can disagree about the potential benefit of a product, and they can voice this opinion. If you have such an issue with someone voicing their own opinion, whether you agree with it or not, then you have a long road of life ahead of you. Why is it hard to believe someone may have an opposing opinion? I would actually argue that SMD and his designer (Tony?) didn't come up with the idea, either. Or atleast, they weren't the first. I remember several years ago Chris (he goes by "thechris" or "thch" on the forums) had an identical idea and was actually in the design phase....don't know what ever came of it. It will take me a little bit to find all of the info though. Ah ha...Success! Notice the thread dates; over 5 years ago. http://www.caraudio....tting-tool.html http://www.caraudio....tting-tool.html I don't really see how testing a device such as this really has anything to do with influencing someone's opinion of it's usefulness and benefits. Someone can form an opinion on the usefulness of a device such as this without needing to see the LEDs lighting up. The concept is fairly easy to grasp, and it's the concept and benefits of use that are in disagreement. If you think it's a good product then great....buy it. But don't expect everyone to agree with you, and don't expect those who disagree to bit their tongues. Instead of coming in here just to complain because you don't like M5's opinion, why don't you try refuting his statements with valid reasons as to why you see benefit in such a product and actually contribute to the conversation.

Honestly I couldn't tell you who it is. It depends on who or what actually owns the patent and design (Intellectual Property). If the IP is property of Image Dynamics as a company, then it will probably stay with the company. If the IP is property of Eric Stevens, then he could probably choose to take it with him. It really depends on all of the nitty-gritty legalities that only Eric and the partner know (and even then, they may disagree which could turn into a legal battle. Not saying that is the case, just a possibility as obviously this wasn't an amicable separation).

You're right. There's the proper way to accomplish a goal, and then the improper way. PNS and equivalent products fall (pun intended) into the latter category.

Honestly, no it doesn't. That's not an insult to you in particular, anyone who successfully competes or operates a business designing enclosures. We've had this (or a similar) discussion before on this forum, ask Cableguy In the SQ arena I've seen many well respected world champions who've been praised for their installation and tuning abilities for many years speak misinformation and hold on to beliefs which were very much against the facts. Were they "right" because they could point to 10 systems that they've installed and tuned that won competitions, or because they have a shelf of trophies themselves? No, they weren't. Their information was just as wrong, regardless of their "credentials". The point is, credentials aren't part of the discussion. They have no place in it. They aren't relevant. Information is accurate or inaccurate, "right" or "wrong", regardless of the credentials of the person providing the information. Having credentials they can point to doesn't make their information any more right, and not providing credentials doesn't make their information any less right. Does it matter if M5 is a 30 year old keyboard commando sitting in his mom's basement if the information he's providing is accurate? No, it doesn't matter at all. The information can stand on it's own, regardless of the credentials of the poster. That goes for people on both sides of the discussion; M5, Robin, yourself, etc. If the information they're providing is accurate, then it's accurate regardless of the credentials of the person providing the information. If it's inaccurate, then it's just as inaccurate regardless of the credentials of the poster. This is the Argument from Authority I mentioned earlier. Information isn't inherently "correct" just because it's coming from someone assumed to be an authority. Conversely, information isn't incorrect just because it comes from someone not assumed to be an authority. It's a logically flawed argument. If the information is accurate or inaccurate, then it can be demonstrated to be such regardless of who's providing the information. Credentials have nothing to do with the validity of information.

Not quite. Those probably work by simply lighting up the light when the output voltage reaches a certain level, not actually measuring the signal for clipping.

It's measuring harmonic distortion. Which is why they give you a test disc that plays specific frequencies, as it will only be capable of measuring the harmonics of those specific frequencies. If you, for example, play a 60hz tone then there will be harmonic distortion at 120hz, 180hz, 240hz, etc. The 60hz tone is the fundamental and the multiple of the fundamental is the order of the harmonic distortion. So 60hz is the fundamental, then 120hz is the 2nd order harmonic, 180hz is the 3rd order, 240hz is the 4th order, so on and so forth. So all it's doing is measuring the level of the harmonics in relation to the fundamental and when it gets to a certain level it lights up a light. I can't give specifics of it's design or explain exactly how it determines when to light up (as I simply don't know), but that's basically the jist of how it's going to work.