altoncustomtech

I would definitely say that requires further investigation. There's not a normal reason for there to be any cross talk between the channels, at least not at any audible level.

I'm looking forward to seeing the build progress for sure.

Yeah I'd definitely call first and it will do more for you than just let you know if they have a way to demo speakers for you or not. Explain to them your situation, how far away you are, what you're looking for and to do. Ask them about the brands the sell and the experience they have. Ask them if they have an install log book or photo album of work they've done and lastly ask if there's any vehicles there to get a demo in. Now, it's been my experience that if they're a decent shop they'll have the photo album and a vehicle or two to demo in but the biggest thing is that they will ask you what it is you're looking to do and achieve. Now that kind of question is two fold as it is their job to sell equipment and they will want to try to sell you some but here's the catch. A good shop will do that, make some suggestions, etc. but give you space and let you talk and explain stuff, your vehicle, experience, blah blah blah. They'll spend some time without expecting much. The worst shops I've run across ask up front what you're interested in, how much money you're going to spend, and will either push as hard as possible to make sale or not spend any time with you because you're really only looking and not that interested in spending money with them. Both of those traits turn me away in a hurry. I travel a fair bit for work with training, meetings, etc. and have spent lots of time walking into shops to just check things out that I in no way planned to spend any money and I'd let them know that up front as soon as the first employee asked if they could help me. The local crappy shop and a few others I've visited in other cities practically turn you back out the door which I've never understood the thinking behind that. You'd think they would want to try to at least keep you coming back in. The best shop I ever visited was in Tulsa, OK and I've not found another one as good as it yet. They had the best sound room setup I've ever experienced, a fantastic photo album of the work they've done, and were the friendliest and most polite people you could ever ask for. When I explained why I was there the salesman introduced me to the owner, showed me their shop and the work they had going on at the time. He also showed me both of their demo vehicles and I was there over two hours just talking audio with him and the owner. Damn I've rambled on forever, lol. The point is, call first and verify that they have what you're looking for/to do and try to ascertain whether or not it's worth your time to go there or not. If so then go and listen to as many speaker sets as they have available to listen to. Keep in mind that a sound board will sound completely different than an in vehicle installation but you should still be able to get a fair idea of what you like and dislike about the sound. Then come back here and explain your thoughts on it.

You're not the only one who has that problem. There's only two shops within 20 miles of my house. One of them is the BIGGEST ripoff, scam artist owned shit hole anyone could ever walk into and they think Planet Audio rules all. The other one is actually a fantastic shop with an owner and two guys who work there who actually know a REAL thing or two about audio but the place is so small they have no sound board even. Hell for that matter the place is nothing more than a large garage but they do great business and can pull off legitimate custom work too. The nearest Best Buy or city with any other audio stores is around 50 miles to the North or South of me so trust me dude I know the boat you're in.

It all comes down to how it's done. I prefer having the sub and port firing directly into the cabin as you're wanting to do OP. The thing is they have to actually fire INTO the cabin, not just facing it in the trunk, and the cabin needs to be sealed off as well as possible from the trunk after doing so. To me it sounds 100 times more natural and the best part is that pretty much all the rattles that come from the trunk/rear of the car are gone. As for the port noise, if the correct size/port area is being used no audible noise should be produced by the port itself. If you are hearing port noise then your enclosure design wasn't done correctly by calculating the vent Mach/port velocity and making sure it's within respectable limits.

Also, it may not be the tweeters. The biggest problem with most component sets is that the passive crossover point typically lets frequencies play right through the point where the mid starts beaming and/or causes cone breakup. That was the issue I found with the Bravox CS60K components in the Jimmy but it was so bad that no amount of EQ could smooth it out and the music still sound right. They're doing great as dedicated midbasses crossed over at 300hz but I found through playing with crossover settings and such that anything above 800hz they started the ear splitting, almost screaming at me kind of problems. Even though the frequency it was happening at was lower than most tweeters play at everyone I showed it to also thought it was the tweeters as well, it just sounded like a higher frequency. There was an article on this problem in CA&E that explained the issue as to why it's the mid and not the tweeter in great detail. I'll see if I can't hunt that up from somewhere. A quick way to verify whether or not it's the tweeters that have an issue or the mids would be to disconnect the tweeters and listen for a period, then do the same with the mids disconnected and the tweets playing alone. You'll find out real quick where the problem lies.

Well you didn't say it was it a sealed enlcosure, just that it was 1.25cuft and not within spec so I assumed it was a ported enclosure because 1.25 is right in the middle of the sealed recommendation. Since it's a sealed enclosure AND it appears to be unloading the sub at high volumes I would still highly suggest going over the enclosure with a fine tooth comb to make absolutely certain that it doesn't have any air leaks. Any kind of air leak affects the performance of a sealed enclosure. Surprisingly I've found over the years the most common places for air to leak from is where the sub mounts to the enclosure and around/through where the screws go through the frame to mount it and around/through terminal cups when they're used. Enclosure carpet doesn't always work very well to help seal where the sub or terminal cups mount. I've also seen air push right through cheap terminals and through the sub mounting holes when the hole was cut out with a jig saw and a little ob-longed. Hell, on the enclosure I built for my XCON it had air pushing right through the screw threads. I had to pull all the screws and put sealant on them to keep the air from pushing through them. It's a sealed enclosure, there's not many more things to check. Just because you put the sub and it's current enclosure in another vehicle and it did the same thing doesn't mean the sub is at fault. If nothing else, with that you've proven it wasn't an issue with the amp or settings and have pretty well singled out the enclosure or the sub itself and my money is still on the enclosure. The best way to test whether or not it's the sub itself is to try it in another enclosure. Also you said you used liquid nails when building the enclosure which I've never had luck with. Titebond II is the only glue to use when building enclosures in my opinion. You also wouldn't believe the number of times I've heard someone complain about the noises coming from their subs thinking they were the problem only to find out what they were hearing was a panel on the enclosure knocking against another one because it was poorly built. I'm not saying that's the exact problem with yours, but more often than not when it comes to an issue like the one you're having the enclosure is at fault and not the sub. Fi does make fantastic subs however the people who HAND BUILD these things are still human and can make a mistake. There was a thread not too horribly long ago of a person who had an issue and it turned out to be something with the leads, or coil but it had to be one of the first times I've ever actually seen a manufacturing mistake. Take into account the shear number of subs they sell through the Fi brand and the brands they OEM build for that have rarely ever had any problems at all and I think they do pretty damn good myself. Testing in another enclosure is the sure fire way to know for certain. If it still does it in another enclosure then the likelihood of the sub having a problem becomes much more prevalent, if it plays flawlessly then you know there has to be an issue with your enclosure. That will be the fastest way to tell what's really going on.

I don't know about their speakers but their UL12 subwoofer was reviewed by CA&E magazine as the best sub ever (not the exact words). Of course that's a HUGE statement but I do remember the Klippel curves sure were sexy. Very linear on all fronts if I'm remembering correctly. I probably have the issue with the test and results in the closet, but I digress. Even if they produce some of the "best" equipment I can't see how it could even begin to carry those prices, they're as bad as Rolls Royce. Then again I don't get the price tag on those Morels either and I'll readily admit I'm no authority on any of it so take my opinions for what they're worth.

Why can't you use the piece of wire that you already have that was going from one side to the other? Should be plenty there to re-purpose it for connecting it in a parallel configuration.

That would be a D2 for sure.... Wire it up parallel and you'll be making waves...

Yes, connect the leads directly to the terminals of the subwoofer itself with no wiring attached. The DMM measures whatever it's connected to so if the voice coils are wired together or it's wired to the amp, or both as in your case it's measuring everything.

I just looked at the last pic. You PAID a shop for that enclosure???!! My sister did a better job cutting out the baffles for the door speakers for her Durango than they did the opening for that sub!!!!! Just noticed the end of the port on the inside of the enclosure doesn't look like it's all the way against the bottom of the enclosure either. That's just sad.

I thought the same thing.

Was the wires from the box to the amp still connected to the amp? If so the resistance measurements don't do us much good. It's wired in series, so it's either a D1 wired to 2 ohms or a D2 and they wired it to 4. Disconnect the wires from the sub, yes all of them, and connect the DMM to each set of terminals and see what it reads. Then we can tell you whether it's really D1 or D2 and if the wiring configuration needs changed how to rewire it.

^^EXACTLY!!^^ What on earth makes you think you need that much crap going on up front? I have a single pair of 6.5" components in the front of my wife's van that have no problems getting loud enough to make her happy (not easy by the way, she's the biggest reason I've been through so many setups in that vehicle). For that matter all I have for the highs in my Jimmy are a pair of 3" full range drivers and they get loud enough to make my ears hurt. You need to rethink what you're doing. A quality installation will trump a quantity installation any day. All this time, effort and money you're trying to throw at this multiple speaker setup can be better spent by going with one good set of speakers up front and ensuring they have the best installation you can possibly give them. It doesn't take a lot of reading to figure out what makes up a decent installation either. Now, your plan of using separate amps for the highs and subs is spot on. The only way you're going to output that will satisfy your craving for output and remain clean while doing it is to put a real amp on the highs as HU's don't deliver crap for power. The JBL MS-62C's are well reviewed but everyone has a personal taste and these may or may not suit yours. You need to go out and listen to as many sets as you can to get a feel for what you like and dislike about each one of them. It will help you a great deal in deciding on a set you like. As for the subs, don't go thinking you need 4,000 watts worth of amp and subs to give you great output. A pair of simpler 12's such as the SSA GCON's (DCON's even, they'll be available again soon) or the Fi X series will yield tons of output in a properly designed enclosure, sound great doing it and not cost you an arm and a leg in subs and an amp but first thing is first you need to do some studying. Go to as many shops and stores as possible and listen to as many sets as you possibly can to get an ear for what pleases you and what doesn't. While you're at it study up on what makes a good installation. Sound deadening will be a priority and the best information available on that is at Sound Deadener Showdown. Not only is there a comprehensive and complete explanation on what and how the different products work the best way to install them is covered and there's even a break down of a simple yet effective way to install speakers in your doors. Do all these things, get some more information under your belt and we can and will continue to help guide you through this process. The main thing to do though is ditch the ideas of all these unnecessary speakers and concentrate on making the best install possible.

Happy Birthday dude!

Happy Birthday and I wish you many more!

to the fourm, and back to the hobby! Fellow hoosier as well!! Where about in the great state of Indiana are you? I would assume that since you mentioned wanting something in the 2kw to 2.5kw power range that you'll be investing in a new amp and sub(s). The ZCON is definitely a killer sub and from what I've read and who I've talked to does a fantastic job of sounding good as well as having monster amounts of output. Keep in mind though that everything any sub can and does do as far as it's performance is completely and totally installation dependent and the biggest part of that is the enclosure. Having the right enclosure will mean everything whether you choose to go with the ZCON, ICON's, or any other brand and model of sub that you've had your eye on. There are several members on here who either currently have an install done in an Impala (or equivalent vehicle) or have done one. They would be the best ones to comment on the enclosure sizes and tuning that would best suit what you're looking for. Either way you're in good hands!

We definitely need more information in order to help you out but I can speak from personal experience that these subs can perform, so there's definitely an issue with your installation no matter how much you don't want to hear that. It sounds to me like the enclosure is way off. 1.25cuft isn't just a little outside the minimum requirements it's quite alot. The other problem is most likely your tuning is off. Those things coupled together equals fail on the performance of the sub and if you keep running it to it's mechanical limits the failure of the sub itself. The number one thing to do right NOW is determine the tuning of the enclosure. Get some test tones, start in the area of 50hz and turn it up enough to get the sub moving a bit. Start going down through the frequencies until you notice the sub moving the LEAST amount and that will be your tuning frequency, let us know what that is. Your amp has an unadjustable subsonic filter which is NOT ported enclosure friendly and adds to the problems you're having. With an enclosure size of 1.25cuft I would HIGHLY suggest plugging the port and running it sealed until which time you can either build a better ported enclosure or do something more fitting along the lines of a sealed enclosure. What HU are you using? What is all the specifications on the enclosure? Where did the enclosure come from? You very well may need to get yourself an SSF to put in front of the amp to protect the sub if you keep a ported enclosure. Answer all these questions and we'll be much more informed to help you out with the issue. You've bought a very nice subwoofer that has a long standing reputation for it's quality.

I forgot to finish. I've been on here learning, soaking up as much as I could, experimenting here and there to apply some of what I've learned and it's been up to and until just here recently that I felt I have gotten enough knowledge and trained myself and my ears good enough to be able to try an active setup. Almost five years in the making after first reading about all the good it can do to attempting it and I'm going with about as simple a 2 way active setup that can be done using a pair of full range drivers and dedicated midbass drivers. The setup simplifies everything by having one driver to literally do 98.4% of the standard audible spectrum. 1.2% of the remaining sound is being done by the midbasses and the remaining .4% the subwoofer. Complications from improper aiming/installation, destructive interference, and the other problems that plague car audio installations are much much lower in comparison to a 2 way setup with a tweeter and mid and minuscule in comparison to a 3 way setup. I'm not even close to diving into either of those and especially not the 3 way. Not that it doesn't intrigue me to the point of imagining how I would go about it and what drivers I would use. I do that all the time but how I would do it and what drivers I would chose to use have changed drastically in the last couple of years let alone anything I was thinking about when I joined. There is so much more to an "install" than just slapping some appealing drivers into the easiest locations in which they fit. Sure from a business standpoint at the shop it's not practical to pretty much engineer every setup that every customer comes in wanting, especially considering that most people want it done fast and done CHEAP. However, for yourself why not put in the time, learn and excel at what makes the difference between something tossed in and something definitively designed, installed and setup correctly.

I get that, I really do. However, without a better understanding of and at least some ability to determine the difference between response issues caused by the drivers themselves or installation problems going active, especially in the manner you're attempting, will not lead to satisfactory results. You have to crawl before you can walk and you have to walk before you can run. Believe me I KNOW you feel you already know stuff and have the experience to dive into this but the truth is you don't and every time you ask the questions you're asking and answer the information you're giving us it proves this more and more. I joined this forum in May of 2009 THINKING I knew a lot about audio and I couldn't have been more wrong. Granted I knew more than anyone else I was acquainted with and definitely enough that I could tell what the shops in my area were doing was wrong but SO many of the things I KNEW were "right" were in fact so incorrect it made my head spin at first. I had been building enclosures for years, installed numerous systems (even a few fairly large ones) for myself and friends and even made some decent money on the side doing it, but looking back there were many things that really weren't right. Even more of those things that I did I simply just got lucky that it worked out so well. So sure, a couple of capacitors and a couple of coils and resistors in a plastic case are technically a passive crossover BUT if ANY R&D was done that set of electrical components was designed and specifically meant for the speakers it came with and WILL NOT work PROPERLY with any other speakers. The sad fact is that the majority of the time component speakers and their passive crossovers are just a bunch of options some chinese build house gave the company to chose from for the line.

In 99% of vehicles with a separate tweeter and mid there is NO passive crossover past one simple, cheap -6dB non-polarized electrolytic capacitor that is often times glued to the magnet of the tweeter and soldered to the leads/wires. First of all an electrolytic capacitor does not a complete passive crossover make and second once you remove the factory tweeter that little piece of crap along with it's 20 cent craptastic tweeter is gone and no longer part of any equation.

In theory yes but there's more to it than that. Passive crossovers are (or SHOULD be) designed around a particular driver and it's impedance curve which changes with frequency. As I mentioned in the last post "NO ONE SPEAKER IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS ANOTHER" and what that means in the world of passive crossovers is that Driver B's impedance curve (among other things) cannot and will not the be same as Driver A and the passive crossover that is designed specifically for Driver A will not work and behave the same for Driver B which can and will lead to bad results in response.

The only thing that really makes it different is the fact that Sony tower has passive crossovers where typical car installs do not. However, just because it's what you guys are doing "all the time at work" does not make it right either. Is there any thought put into exactly what's being replaced? How it's being replaced? or Why it's being replaced? This kind of stuff is the biggest reason why I do not and will not seek out installation work or advice from 99% of the shops I've been in. Speakers aren't just speakers. No one is exactly the same as another and just swapping one for another does not lead to good results the majority of the time. Sure people get lucky on occasion and what they hear when they do it suits their listening preferences better (the most likely case with your tweeters) but that still doesn't make it the right way to do it.

to the forum!