The "sound" argument is greatly confused by our rather imperfect ears or, more specifically, our rather imperfect brains. :

So you are saying that folks who hear differences in various amplifier topologies, have either bad hearing or not very smart?

Using your ears isn't really testing, they are horribly inaccurate. You will have a real hard time discerning 3dB which requires 2x the power...

all the more reason IMO all the fuddy dud issues about getting every watt out of a 2000 watt amp unless you do db drag is pointless...every .1 of a volt is not going to be audible and does not will not mean you will automatically gain fractions of a db. Three db is also a little high on 2 times the power..perfect hearing can tell 1 db differences but generally speaking 2+ db would be needed to tell the difference in a daily driver ....

Using your ears isn't really testing, they are horribly inaccurate. You will have a real hard time discerning 3dB which requires 2x the power...

all the more reason IMO all the fuddy dud issues about getting every watt out of a 2000 watt amp unless you do db drag is pointless...every .1 of a volt is not going to be audible and does not will not mean you will automatically gain fractions of a db. Three db is also a little high on 2 times the power..perfect hearing can tell 1 db differences but generally speaking 2+ db would be needed to tell the difference in a daily driver ....

And with no reference (ie a good span of time in between) you can't even hear a 3dB shift. I also get very amused over chasing tenths of a volt, but I also don't care about SPL at all.

Using your ears isn't really testing, they are horribly inaccurate. You will have a real hard time discerning 3dB which requires 2x the power...

all the more reason IMO all the fuddy dud issues about getting every watt out of a 2000 watt amp unless you do db drag is pointless...every .1 of a volt is not going to be audible and does not will not mean you will automatically gain fractions of a db. Three db is also a little high on 2 times the power..perfect hearing can tell 1 db differences but generally speaking 2+ db would be needed to tell the difference in a daily driver ....

And with no reference (ie a good span of time in between) you can't even hear a 3dB shift. I also get very amused over chasing tenths of a volt, but I also don't care about SPL at all.

Me either really..amplifiers were designed to operate within a voltage range. I care more about it working and to be able to tell a performance increase by listening to an actual performance increase than to have to use a meter that tells me if I am louder by (.2db) LOL

LOL, there aren't 2 amps made that measure the same..... Someone, somewhere can tell a difference, and frankly, that is all that matters.... Arguing over this subject is, kind of silly really.... It is like saying that a color of car is better than another.... It is all opinion, perception, ignorance, education, etc...

I never could figure out why people say "Real watts".... Is there any other kind, seriously? Every single amp makes "Real watts"... Some just more than others....

If I owned a company like Audiobahn, Pyramid, Rockwood, etc... I sure as hell would put whatever power rating I felt like on the case.... People buy into that crap... That is how you make money... I just find it strange when people discover this and get confused/surprised I guess...

600 jigga watt amp on this this weekend for 200 see j-roc at scrilla villa for the best prices.

LOL, there aren't 2 amps made that measure the same..... Someone, somewhere can tell a difference, and frankly, that is all that matters.... Arguing over this subject is, kind of silly really.... It is like saying that a color of car is better than another.... It is all opinion, perception, ignorance, education, etc...

I never could figure out why people say "Real watts".... Is there any other kind, seriously? Every single amp makes "Real watts"... Some just more than others....

If I owned a company like Audiobahn, Pyramid, Rockwood, etc... I sure as hell would put whatever power rating I felt like on the case.... People buy into that crap... That is how you make money... I just find it strange when people discover this and get confused/surprised I guess...

the % of the distortion would have to be higher than full percentages..back in the 90's people used to put "junk amps" in expensive (blown) amp heat sinks and all of the sudden their systems magically sounded better to those who didn't know any better...you can indeed tune 2 different amplifiers to sound VERY identical especially if you bypass eq's and x overs that come on the units (which with digital processing avalible why wouldn't you use analog?)...you can agree to disagree but for the most part this has been hashed out over and over again without a definite winning side....in that case what does that also say???

LOL, there aren't 2 amps made that measure the same..... Someone, somewhere can tell a difference, and frankly, that is all that matters.... Arguing over this subject is, kind of silly really.... It is like saying that a color of car is better than another.... It is all opinion, perception, ignorance, education, etc...

I never could figure out why people say "Real watts".... Is there any other kind, seriously? Every single amp makes "Real watts"... Some just more than others....

If I owned a company like Audiobahn, Pyramid, Rockwood, etc... I sure as hell would put whatever power rating I felt like on the case.... People buy into that crap... That is how you make money... I just find it strange when people discover this and get confused/surprised I guess...

well, i just think its kind of messed up for those people who are trieng to get into this stuff more, and for consumers all together, i mean isnt it illegal, like false advertisement

LOL, there aren't 2 amps made that measure the same..... Someone, somewhere can tell a difference, and frankly, that is all that matters.... Arguing over this subject is, kind of silly really.... It is like saying that a color of car is better than another.... It is all opinion, perception, ignorance, education, etc...

I never could figure out why people say "Real watts".... Is there any other kind, seriously? Every single amp makes "Real watts"... Some just more than others....

If I owned a company like Audiobahn, Pyramid, Rockwood, etc... I sure as hell would put whatever power rating I felt like on the case.... People buy into that crap... That is how you make money... I just find it strange when people discover this and get confused/surprised I guess...

well, i just think its kind of messed up for those people who are trieng to get into this stuff more, and for consumers all together, i mean isnt it illegal, like false advertisement

You'd be surprised what people/companies will do for money. If the amp is not CEA compliant there is not an outside party testing the output, they can stamp on any number that pops into their head and call it good. If someone were to test it and call the company, they will say to send it in and claim it is faulty and most likely send you the same one back....You are still screwed, don't waste your time with unknown amps.

And you think CEA compliance means something? That requirement is a huge joke as well.

And you think CEA compliance means something? That requirement is a huge joke as well.

Tell me more. I haven't met anyone with a complaint about them...

Who's going to complain? The CEA "requirements" aren't realstic and failure of an amp to meet its specs by amateur testing can easily be played off by the company as the failure to meet the correct test conditions (14.4 V is the CEA standard after all). Compliance is voluntary and there is no independent testing done to confirm compliance. Hardly sounds like a reliable standard to me.

And you think CEA compliance means something? That requirement is a huge joke as well.

Tell me more. I haven't met anyone with a complaint about them...

Well for starters, the RF T15k gained CEA compliance even though it doesn't do near the continuous power it is rated for.

The "sound" argument is greatly confused by our rather imperfect ears or, more specifically, our rather imperfect brains. :

So you are saying that folks who hear differences in various amplifier topologies, have either bad hearing or not very smart?

What I'm saying is that ACTUAL differences between amplifiers are completely quantifiable...there is no magic pixie dust.

Now, in terms of interpreted differences, I am saying that our ears and brain are not very smart. We have very poor memory for sound, and are unable to distinguish what is actually driving a difference between a variety of physical properties. We don't hear what happens with each component in the chain separately...we hear their summation. Even then, we are often unable to determine when a change is favourable or unfavourable (if the goal is accurate reproduction): instead, we hear how it relates to a personal preference.

This is, of course, ignoring the whole philosophical argument of perception. We can only understand and compare against what we already know...what we've already perceived. No person here has ever heard a system that was a perfect reproduction of a song, and it is doubtful that we were there for the original production of our recordings; as such, it is impossible to state with a high degree of certainty using only our ears what level of accurate reproduction the system is achieving.