1sashenka

I was looking at the specs of both subs and they appear similar. I was wondering if these subs are in the same ballpark in terms of goals and design. This is for a daily groundpounder on 1500 watts in a ported box(1.2 cubes) tuned to 33hz and LP at 80hz with subsonic at 30hz/24db. Wondering what the pros and cons are and peoples opinions on which sub is louder and which is cleaner unless either sub is just better in both aspects for this type of set-up. Your opinions are highly valued and appriciated even from those who have no direct experience with both to compare. I listen to mainly house and trance music. Thanks

Yes, Xcons are supposed to be great. I have two 15's sitting in the basement waiting to be unraveled. I will probably get to one of them in about a month. Right now I am breaking in Mach 5 IXL 15" before I hand it over to a friend, who allowed me to toy with it for a while. I am curious what folks would have to say about the Alphas and BL's. Not getting much yet. We'll see what happens in the next few days. I mainly posted this to get opinions on these two subs, as I am curious, and I have googled pretty much all there is on Alphas and I believe most on BL's, but still not satisfied with the results, and thought someone would just drop a gem on me. I also thought about which forum would be most neutral about them, cause as you know some forums have their favourite "boner" subs... The more I think about it, the more I think RD took a step toward the more SQ oriented Alpha with v3 over v2 according to some specs, but what I dont get is the high fs rating, and that makes me suspicious about how true these recent unofficial specs are. And I do realize that the v3 is just way too new, so maybe what I should have asked how v2 compares to the BL, and see what people would say.

Closer look at the specs revealed they are not really that much alike as I thought. Alpha v3 is not the same sub as v2. It appears that the specs seem to be alike on Alpha v2 and the BL. It seems that BL might just be louder than the Alpha v3, but soundwise it seems Alpha will take it. I just dont know how bad or decent BL sounds. It also seems Alpha v2 is louder than a v3 of the same power, but v3 could be pushed further and might have better low end extention. I am not sure how official the new Alpha specs are, cause I got them off this review page, and RD Audio site is not updated, and they dont look right to me, but who knows. BL10 DUAL 1 | DUAL 2 Fs: 37.1 Hz | 37.1 Hz Re: 0.7 Ohms/coil | 1.4 Ohms/coil Qms: 4.62 | 4.62 Qes: .23 | .23 Qts: .22 | .22 Mms: 191g | 191g Cms: 0.96mm/N | 0.96mm/N Sd: 310cm^2 | 310cm^2 Vas: 13.0 l | 13.0 l Spl: 86.2dB 1W/1m | 86.2dB 1W/1m Bl: 16.6 N/A | 22.7 N/A Xmax: 18mm | 18mm Rms: 1000W * | 1000W * Sealed box: N/A cuft | N/A cuft Ported box: .7-1.5cuft | .7-1.5cuft Sub OD: 11.000” | 11.000” Cut ID: 9.250” | 9.250” Mounting depth: 6.250” | 6.250” Displacement: 0.16cuft | 0.16cuft Alpha v3 10 Re = 1.1973 ohms Fs = 42.7766 Hz Zmax = 22.6219 ohms Qes = 0.4517 Qms = 8.0836 Qts = 0.4278 Le = 1.2721 mH (at 1 kHz) Diam = 193.6750 mm ( 7.6250 in ) Sd =29460.2886 mm^2( 45.6635 in^2) Vas = 7.9966 L ( 0.2824 ft^3) BL = 12.3304 N/A Mms = 213.4334 g Cms = 64.8583 uM/N Kms =15418.2373 N/M Rms = 7.0965 R mechanical Efficiency = 0.1302 % Sensitivity= 83.1640 dB @1W/1m

That is very informative. Thank you.

I think it is difficult to compare the 2. The Xcon I heared was in a very well designed box, and my Icon : no, just a simple box with a pvc tube! Both were receiving 1000-1200 watts rms. But it was like the little brother, and the big brother : both sound good, but I think the Xcon is for real bassheads (like me), it's loud, loud, LOUD!!! The Icon is a wonderful woofer, I have never heared such a sub!! Until I heared the Xcon, I wouldn't want to change sub:). Since you have heard both drivers in person, maybe you can tell me something I've been wondering about. Everyone raves about how the Icon has that really impressive strong bottom end. Does an Xcon display a similar effect? I have a couple of Xcons sitting around for few more weeks, and I am not planning on getting Icons, so I am wondering how the two compare in this department. Thanks.

Once again guys, I am not asking for alternatives, please adhere to the original question. Lets try it one last time. Thanks

Hey guys. I have no experience with either sub and I would like some feedback from those who actually have had personal experience with both subs instead of just guessing from specs. Which will be louder on 1400 watts rms amp? This will be a sealed box of 2 cubes with 2 lbs of polyfil. Usable frequency 30hz/24db - 80hz/24db. Personally when I look at the specs I am guessing the performance might be on par with the Xcon being a tad louder, but Fi is around 32 lbs and Xcon is around 47 lbs, so in terms of weight Fi is a better option, but is the extra weight of Xcon worth it if it is in fact that much louder? This is for a daily driver. Thanks

Second WEIGHT of the sub has nothing to do with the proformance of a sub. ^^^^^^^^^ yuuuuup ^^^^^^^^ Not sure why this is being addressed twice already. If weight had nothing to do with sub performance, then I would like to get a sub performing just like Xcon with xmax of 31mm and 1750 wrms with all the spiders and brut motor strength etc, but weighing 10 lbs, however, that would be the only option for most of us, and there would be no vs threads, cause that would be a no brainer. Neodymium is another way to go, but I dont really see anything I like with those offerings. I am simply looking at the weight / performance ratio for my choice with requirements at hand. And here is a smiley, so you dont think I am being arguementative, and another thread turned bad Now, the question was very simple. The choice would be one or the other. Did anyone on here comment yet, who actually had first hand experience with drivers at hand? I dont see how this would help, but for those who need to know what music I like, it is mainly house and trance. I drive a hatchback Golf. System is daily driver as mentioned before. I may swap the CDT's if I feel like it to Hertz MLK2 I have sitting around for my next car, which may be an Audi. Most likely I will just keep the CDT's in for a while, even though I am not entirely happy with them. I prefer regulated amps all around and that is what I use these days in my ride. I have other sub amps laying around I could use like Sundown 1500D, Critical Mass UL2500, but I found they are inferior for SQ to Arc 2300SE as I hate class D sound, efficiency is not an issue with my upgraded alt and my daily power requirements, and I also prefer to run subs at higher impedance, so this is the amp I would use, and it does 1800 wrms at 2 ohms, but I never plan to use all of it, I prefer lotsa headroom, but sometimes I have those basshead moments, and I would like to get one of these subs, and I only have room and weight I have already mentioned, and I will not go ported. Weight is the main issue, cause the Golf is lowered with low profile tires, and the weight is killing the suspention, and makes the car's rear sag and that looks like crap. Criteria was very simple, it does not have to get complicated. I have several other sub set-ups, but mostly pure SQ like a couple of Mag v4's, a single DIYMA, a couple of 12" Arc D Series, and a triple 10" CSS SDX's. I had a ported 12" Mag v2 long ago and I loved it, so I figured why not get a similar type sub in 15" size for my collection and next fun project. That is my intent and it is only a plan at this point. I am having fun with this. The rest of my gear that I am currently using is in the sig. I didnt want to inially go through all this, but here it is and hope this clears things up a bit. Thanks guys

With the requirements at hand, and looking at the sub specs, I think Q will outperform other drivers. Not to mention it is cheaper and weighs less. Even still the performance differences in given scenerio will be marginal at best. If I had more power and more room and weight was no issue, then other drivers could be pushed further then Q obviuosly. It seems Q with b/p/ will be the best choice HERE. Thanks everyone.

Thanks for the input guys. Please try to stick to the question at hand. The power is 1400 watts, box is sealed, two cubes with polyfil. Frequency is 30hz/24db to 80hz/24db. Which is louder on that power in that box? If you think Havoc is better than loaded Fi Q in everyway, then I will replace the choice to between Xcon and Havoc, but at this point the Havoc is close in weight to the Xcon, and I would rather get the lighter driver if the performance is very comparable, that is why Fi Q is very appealing.

You have great mids. It seems you only may need to change the tweeters. Depending on your taste you may want to look at Seas Neo Aluminum or Soft, and Vifa XT19 Soft Dome. Lotsa people drive those Pioneer mids with Alpine Type X-Pro tweets with great results, which potentially can take you to the next level you're looking for.

Agreed. And when can we have full Xcon specs posted. I can't help to think it is based of the BTL. Hype has it that it's not, but I refuse to believe the hype. We need to see some specs soon

Are you looking for SQ? SPL? Why the Q? In a port/sealed enclosure? wtf? Haven't you been on this site long enough to realize that those terms are meaningless and misused by all noobies on the site. To top it off YOU miss use them as well. Please STOP right now. To the OP, please describe your goals without using SQ or SPL as your description will give us a much better idea of how to help you. You need to stfu. Capacitors are useless. Stop giving bad information Again to the OP, sorry for all the misinformation in the thread. ...and this arseho is still here. 0 advice from him too. To the OP, this forum would be great if not for a few pricks, but this guy takes the cake. I visit here sometimes, and get turned right off everytime I see this asswipe's comments. If SSA does not clean up or keep useless chitheads in place I may have to boycott the very promising Xcon and tell everyone I know that SSA forum is full of jackoffs, and SSA cannot do nothing to keep the piece, but of course he is buddies with the moderators and has like a million smartass comments on here. Wow, not too busy with anything else obviously. I've tried helping people here like others try to help, only to get radiculed. Nothing has changed, and I've had my run-in with a certain moderator and he totally got this prick's back, so dont bother... And if you want to ban me, as threatened last time, go ahead, but I speak the truth, and saying it for all those who take way too much unnecessary crap from this doucebag, who makes this place unpleasant. I wish he was funny at least, but he is just a bitter lowlife.

Would be nice to get a deal like this from a Canadian Dealer

We installed the Clarus 6 1/2 set in my buddies car a couple of weeks ago. After a break-in period of approximately 20 hours, they started to sound real good. I love the clarity, and they are taking 200 watts a side with ease. I love the fact that the mids are high passed at 63hz/18db and they are taking it like a champ even at really high volumes. Very sweet and convincing sounding mid. The tweeter has the highest detail I heard on a soft dome. It is pretty sharp, but not harsh at all. We did set it at -3db, otherwise it was overbearing as the balance sounded off at 200 watts a side. My favourite part though, that the mid goes low, and plays really well in that range. Not many mids can play that well crossed this low at really high volumes. No cone break-up at all. What they say is true, it does sound like at least a $1000 set. 5/5

Great choice on the Hybrids. I am on my way now to help my buddy install a set for the front stage, and I got them during the group buy a couple of months ago at 25% off. And Sundown makes the best amps for the money - hands down. 9987 is great too. Sounds like you will have a killer system. Make sure and dont compromise on the install. Good wiring and Dynamat, big 3, etc.

I agree. There are a couple of bashers that think they know everything. I have/had all kinds of set ups, and in my experience three tens slam a tiny bit harder that two twelves on same power, and also on a positive note, the tens rattle your car less. So same loudness or more, and less car rattles. On the other side, tens will weigh more, and with bigger amp like 3000D, chances are you will never be able to get full potential out of it with your electrical system. You also may want to get into another battery at the back for such a big amp, and the list goes on, if you want to overkill like that, and you gotta do these upgrades, if you want to get most out of your system. In my opinion, 1500D(I have one) has enough bass to peal the trip off your car, if you have enough electrical to feed it, and for LSQ it will even be overkill, so you can keep the gains low. There is no need for a bigger amp for sure. This thing is just a beast, and is very efficient. Two twelves are cheaper, and with 1700 watts on two subs in 1.5 cubes each will also be plenty. So, I vote 1500D with two 12's. Just get the D1 versions, so you can run them bridged at 1 ohm final load. Look at my sig below. I have 1000 watts on two 12's sealed in 2 cubes total, and the Arcs have less xmax. With bass heavy tracks and on high volume, it feels like your heart is skipping a beat in your chest, and it is so loud, that I get blurry vision. It is redicilous. Imagine what you can do with more power, bigger box, higher xmax subs... This is what the system is capable of, and if you want to have a more balanced sound, by all means lower your sub output on your deck. Make sure you got enough power on the front stage with efficient and capable speakers(6.5" minimum), and you will be in heaven. As far, as the single 12" XXX or equvalent is concerned, it will have more distortion when you push it. My fave sub from all those was a previous generation 12" SI Mag. I sold it a long while ago to make room for the newer version, I wanted to get a single 15", but later found out SI had no plans for a new 15". I still prefer 2 subs(at least 12's), or one bigger one like 15" or bigger. I also have 3 CSS 10SDX's, and run them at 1.33 ohms, and they slam loud and clean. I also have a Zapco C2K 6.0 amp(around 1300 watts at 2 ohms), and it is amazing to use on the sub stage, cause of it's bipolar output devices design, and as you push it harder, it seems to excellerate the current into your subs like no other mosfet type amp, but is a greedy sucker at that point.

3 tens in the same size enclosure with same power will have more output.

All these options are nice, but remember the smaller the box, the more amp power you will need to get the subs moving. Basicly, the bigger the box, the louder it will be. So, if you have 3 cubes, use them.

You did not mention budget, new or used, weight restrictions, amp power, etc... Based on what you listed you could look into Digital Designs 9110c's, or Fi Audio BL, or Atomic Audio Apocalypse, or JL Audio 10W7's, or Audiopulse Revo's. List goes on for great subs. All loud and clean. All these will need a considerable amount of amp power to get loud in small enclosure of 3 cubes total for 3 10's. I would not hesitate to use something like Sundown 3000D.

Everything in bold is a bit ridiculous as well. I'd like to know how 150w is good and 200w is overkill, the difference in output is nominal between them I would explain everything in detail, but it is useless to try to explain something to you. You are a total waste of time Mr. 29000 posts. Get a friend. And to answer this question to the original thread starter. Simply put - the extra drain on the electrical system does not pay off to get the extra Class AB 50 watts, as the difference in performance is marginal at best. Unless you have upgraded electrical, all this overkill is for nothing. At loud volumes you get more voltage drops, amps work harder, etc, all this has a trickling down effect. And not to have you confused with retarded comments M5 is making, all these things I tell you will not make or break your system. Just food for thought, pros and cons, and options. You decide. Obviously, M5 does not have a loud and clean system, and has no concept of what loud is. Using those LPG's in a two-way, I know it sounds like crap at high volumes, but what the hell, he does not play it loud, so it sounds decent to him. I have them in a 3-way at home, and I know how they could sound crossed lower than... lol Pretty easy to diss someones choices without getting the facts straight. What a moron! After all this time he spends here, he still has no grasp on what forums are for. You need options, people give them to you, but instead he has time to argue with other threaders instead of offering something productive. Over 29000 posts WTF!!! Does he have a life?

Not over reacting at all. I am providing cons with the pros. I said that SOME people who are picky about SQ would do it differently. Those who compile gear with extreme prejudice and pay attention to little details. I could care less, what people decide to do. They ask for options, and I am here to give my input when asked. If you read more carefully, and had something valuable to contribute by all means, but you're pissing me off with your pointless comments. Go bridge an amp...

What you are just saying makes no sense at all. How does bridging have anything to do with distortion at high frequencies. More headroom is ALWAYS better. You probably misunderstood what I was saying. It has nothing to do with power/headroom. I am all for overkill, and running over 250w/side on my fronts. Here is a quote from Arc Audio SE manual. And you can also google the details, if necessary for the facts on this matter. "All Arc Audio amplifiers include an input mode switch. This switch controls the signal being sent to the amplifier sections. Most 2-channel amplifiers can be bridged into a single channel however if the signal to the channels is not exactly the distortion will increase significantly. The mode switch solves this problem by offering 3 modes of operation." So you see, it's about the differences in signal strength. And like I was sayng earlier, some amps behave better some worse in bridged modes for high pass components, low pass equipment like subs are not affected as much due to lower audibility. It is also about dampening. You can look at dampaning figures on a manual, and argue till you're blue in a face, that according to calculations, and such high dampning factor of a certain amp, that for example anything over 25 is inaudible, but in reality most people will hear the difference between 25 and 200 final dampening on certain impedance load on the front stage. Subs again, not so much. I for one have little faith in damping factor rating. For front stage, you CAN hear the speaker control differences at different impedances. I've heard amps with lower dampening rating sound better than the ones rated higher, but it's not only about dampening. This is another can of worms. Hey, if bridging a 4-channel into a 2-channel did not have it's shortcomings, that everyone would be doing it, as it makes perfect sense to spend less money to get more power out of the amps.

You will be really hard pressed to find a better set for this money. For $200 Hexes - hands down!!! They have a legendary rebranded LPG NA25 tweeter in aluminum set, and same equavalent in silk version. I run the same tweeter in my home theatre rig. I love them.

That's good to know. Do you have the newest version with neo magnets on mids, or the older xbl2 tech stuff?