ibanender
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Posts posted by ibanender
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ibanender, what is your point?
There's no point in arguing with somebody who can't read or comprehend sentences because frogs are purple?
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A guy sent me his car to work on for a few months. I received it today and I've still got to figure out what I CAN do in it. By the time it's done, I'll be doing what I can in the trunk and redoing the door panels. The goal (if I can make it fit) is two SAZ-3500d's, a SAX-200.4, four Neo-Pro 10's and four Neo-Pro 8's.
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You are arguing semantics, not content.
When you change words, you change the content.
Oh that's right, they competed in IASCA. So I guess it's relevant to consider the source material for a competition organization in which they competed.
And they also competed in MECA and USACi. Also consider the fact that just because the disc includes the material, doesn't mean they scored well on it. If they didn't have a perfect score, that portion very well could have been the deduction.
The competition results are the only "proof" I need to provide for this part of the discussion. If you think the results are askew, it's your task to prove (not speculate) how and why.
Winning doesn't prove what equipment was or was not used. That doesn't prove there wasn't bias judging either.
No kid buys a pair of L7 12's and goes "I'm gonna do my best to not go over 120 dB".The original comment was that there is no way to make a L7 sound good. Apparently there is, as people have done it.You are trying to argue something different. Though there is no saying that the L7 wouldn't still have provided acceptable performance at sound levels over 120db.
You haven't proven they've been used in judging to say people have made them sound good. I never said they couldn't sound good, but there's nothing to back it up.
This is where it became evident that you realized your argument has failed to support your "point". You can't respond to my questions, so you come back with the "well why don't you prove...." followed by weakly veiled personal attacks.
Since you can't actually respond to any of my statements with relevant information, and your inability to actually dispute that L7's don't necessarily sound bad (which was my only point), my involvement in this conversation ends with this post.
I've been supporting my point, but as you've proven, you aren't reading it and/or changing words so you can argue like you have a fan club to impress.
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After going to Carl Casper a couple ideas were tossed
To me. I charged my batteries last night. I regrounded my
Amps to the battery. What's happening is my slave amp is Dropping down to 11v so I know it's a voltage issue.
I don't know how I can fix it at this point everything is right I will un slave the amps not an issue. How do I give the second amp signal? Br out to br in still?
That sounds like you could have a poor power or ground connection on the amp or at a battery.
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Testing is going quite well... we are within a few tenths of the SPL coil and catching up on the bottom end (only ~1.5 dB down @ 30 Hz adjusted for power).
The v.2 equalizes with the v.1 at 40 Hz and is louder above -- whereas the v.1 SPL coil was behind until 50 Hz and was REALLY far behind under 40 Hz.
It looks like with the slightly softer version of the v.2 spider we will have 90% of the SPL performance of the SPL coil v.1 and 90% of the low-end performance of the v.1 all in the same driver
It should also be mentioned that the box used is tuned to 35 hz, so it's possible it might just have a steeper roll off below tuning.
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I never predrill and never split it. As was said, at least 3" from the edge of the board, problem solved. Also, quit buying shitty MDF. If it's dark, it's no good. The dark stuff is very soft, flexible, and terrible for a box of any quality. I recommend high grade pine plywood for most applications. It's a long stronger, lighter, and cheaper than MDF.
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What's the problem with the odd ohm load?
There isn't a problem with odd at the amp, the problem is when each sub isn't the same.
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So he's saying the box was better for the SA's, showing the people didn't know how to make the AQ's work right.
This guy is a fuck nut.
So when the product you like gets outperformed by something else, it's the owners fault for not making a better box? It's not possible that another product actually is better?
Emphasizing what you just said? What the hell are you talking about? You said: "The point being made is that in no instance is the sub being maxed out, or even close to it. Most of where your bad sound comes from where the BL curve tapers off or other components like spiders and surrounds are stressed."
I pointed out that even if the sub is not being "maxed out", there will still be non-linearities introduced as most BL/Cms curves taper long before the sub is "maxed out" (your comment implies otherwise).....and then provided an example of a scenario where the sub would, in fact, be "maxed out". Neither of my statements remotely support yours. Now you're just making stuff up.
Re-read what I typed. There is a critical word in there, "or", meaning things could be stressed and there is an alternative scenario. That scenario was the BL curve and its non-linearities. I'm not making anything up, you're selectively reading.
Let's go back and look at this convo from the beginning (paraphrasing):Bassahaulic: The SQ champion used L7's
You: Yeah but that doesn't mean they were used for SQ judging
Me: Yes they were
You: Yeah but subs only move 1mm since the peak SPL is so low, so everything sounds good
Me: Just because peak SPL is low doesn't mean the sub isn't working hard
You: Yeah but things don't sound bad until the sub is maxed and the BL tapers off,and none of these subs are maxed out
Me: The linearity of a driver can degrade long before Xmax is reached and the sub is "maxed out", and here's an example of a sub that would be operating at or near Xmax
You: Thanks for proving my point.
What ?! How does that make sense to you?
It would make sense if you paraphrased correctly. You're replacing "or" with "and" which COMPLETELY changes the meaning. You should change your username to Fox News.
Last I checked, the only part of judging that happens at 20 hz is RTA, which isn't anybody in the car, and can sound like total ass and doesn't matter because it's RTA.And you would be wrong. Songs on the IASCA CD have musical content used during the SQ judging portion that drop into the 20hz region and below (Planet Kryptonite has an 18hz organ, for example).
I guess you need to go back and check again.
Oh thats right, IASCA is the only SQ organization in the world, my mistake.
Ok. I'll make this really simple. Prove with actual substantive evidence that the subbass of any of the winning vehicles that used L7 was either inferior to the other vehicles, or that there was bias in the judging. Stop talking and prove it. Othewise you're just talking out of your ass. You can't, so stop trying.
I'm not saying that the fact they were used makes them the best subbass drivers. Rather, simply that they at least don't sound bad.
Prove it wasn't, that goes both ways. When it's proven a judge is biased, they aren't judges anymore. No matter how you think they don't sound bad, there isn't a single consumer that uses them in that fashion. No kid buys a pair of L7 12's and goes "I'm gonna do my best to not go over 120 dB".
Go back and reread the convo. Let's start from here:
In Biggs vehicle the 10L7 would have needed to operate at or near Xmax, and it was a winning competition vehicle. (Your previous statements were that subs don't work very hard in these installs [proven wrong], and that things don't start going bad until Xmax where the sub is stressed therefore they all sound good [not quite]). So, I just provided an example contradictory to your "points".
Your turn.
Where's your video of the sub working in those cars? Where's your Klippel data for that sub? Where's your literacy test proving you know the difference between "or" and "and"? You haven't proven they "work hard" or that you comprehend sentences I type. You've proven nothing but how to talk about an install you don't know about.
You've yet to provide any useful content, so it's extremely difficult to realize what point you are trying to make. I fully understand when subs are or are not used, and fully understand at what point things go bad. From this conversation, I can't say the same for you. You started out claiming the L7's weren't used. I pointed out they were. You claim they are so quiet that everything sounds good (and claim only 1mm of excursion is necessary....LOL), I point out that subs work a lot harder in these installs than you are trying to portray.
So, let me rephrase. If you can find a way to provide some useful content, please do so. Because so far.....you haven't.
I can't believe I just had a 2 page discussion with someone over the simple point.....L7's don't necessarily sound bad
I've provided real information. When the owner of the car tells me "those don't play during judging" I'm gonna say they're right. When are you going to post your proof the subs are used AND move more than a tiny bit? You're the SQ messiah, so back it up, don't just talk about it.
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Did you really just say drop in tests? The boxes needed for the AQ woofers varies ALOT to what a SA woofer would need, so if the box is optimized for the SA then of course it would do better.
Just made your self look ignorant.
On the contrary, you just made yourself look ignorant. You're assuming people went from SA's TO AQ's. This was not the case. SA's were put into the AQ boxes. So I guess the SA's are WAY better because they do better in the wrong box when the AQ as an optimal box.
Tapering of the BL curve depends on the driver. Just because the driver isn't operating at Xmax doesn't mean the driver is linear in all regards.
But, take a vehicle like Biggs' car. With a single 10L7 you would need all of it's Xmax to reach 120db at 20hz, that's with accounting for cabin gain. You are argue 120db isn't loud....but that doesn't mean the sub isn't working hard.
Thanks for emphasizing what I just said. I said the BL curve dapers, I didn't say it doesn't taper TILL full excursion. If it did, it would be something like XBL^2 or a really overhung design. Last I checked, the only part of judging that happens at 20 hz is RTA, which isn't anybody in the car, and can sound like total ass and doesn't matter because it's RTA.
And true "SQ" is not purely subjective. Sound quality is accuracy to the source material and/or original event. This is, ideally, non-subjective. Personal preference is entirely subjective. What one finds pleasing is different than what might technically be more accurate. SQ competitions fall somewhere between the two, how close to one side or the other depends on a lot of factors. Hence the reason I don't put much weight on them.
You just said exactly why SQ is subjective. 1 person can think something is more accurate than another, which is their opinion..... which is subjective. If it wasn't subjective, everybody would score the same at every show with every judge if the system never changed. One year at SBN 1 judges scores were thrown out all together. Why? Because there were 2 or 3 guys that scored approximately 50% lower than the other 2 judges. The judge didnt like those people, so he scored them low. Does that happen in SPL? No. Why? Because SPL isn't subjective, what it does is what it does. In a subjective format, you can fall victim to psycho-acoustics, a poor judge, politics, etc.
Umm....okay? Was that your lengthy way of agreeing with me?No, you said L7's sound good, I said at a certain point nothing sounds good and at low levels it's not difficult to make a sub sound good.
I'm still not sure what your point in this thread is. Instead of responding to my posts....just tell me your point. You appeared to start off arguing that just because a vehicle had L7's it doesn't mean they were used. I tell you they were. You come back with "Well yeah, but it's so quiet everything sounds good." Not disagreeing with me that they can be made to sound not bad, but "qualifying" it. You still don't seem to be disagreeing with me, but are still arguing some point with me....I just can't figure out what that point actually is.I guess if you can find a way to articulate the purpose of your posts here, please do so. Otherwise this whole endeavor is becoming extremely useless as we seem to be circling in agreement with you making some pretty unclear points along the way.
You should try reading for content, not context. If you can't understand when subs are and are not used, and at what point things go bad, I can't help ya.
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Sound level testing is (should be) done at a level loud enough to accurately reproduce the source material. Considering they are listening to real music and not commercial pop/rap/etc, the subbass actually extends very low in frequency. So while the bass may not be "loud" by peak SPL standards, the excursion required to reach the required listening level can actually be fairly significant....certainly significantly greater than 1mm for anyone running one or two typical sized subwoofers (as both Biggs and Eldridge did. Biggs had a single 10L7 in the dash, Eldridge used a pair of 12L7's sealed). There's a difference between 120db at 60hz and 120db at 20hz.
Yes, there is a difference, but there is also things like cabin gain that promote SPL gain on lower frequencies. The point being made is that in no instance is the sub being maxed out, or even close to it. Most of where your bad sound comes from where the BL curve tapers off or other components like spiders and surrounds are stressed. This is assuming the cone is stable.
Also keep in mind both Biggs and Eldridge were competing in the top-tier classes at large national events and world finals. They were competing against what would ideally be the best sounding cars in the competition format, and these are typically not the type of events where a judge perceives too much bass from subs that aren't on and whatnot. Sounding "good" won't necessarily be good enough at that level of competition. That said, anyone that's seen me post knows I don't put a lot of faith into competition results. But the fact that they were able to be used in winning systems at that level of competition at the least points to the fact that they don't sound bad, unlike the underlined statement in the quote up there indicated.Have you competed in SQ or been an SQ judge yourself? I've done both, and seen psycho-acoustics at work. SQ is purely subjective, and I've seen people get scored because of what equipment they ran before they even turned it on. The same applies for who it is. If you're known for sounding good, it immediately sounds better. I tell people to never show what equipment they are running if possible, and if they have to, wait till the judge is done with the score sheet.
You say not it's hard to make a sub sound good at 120db....I'd say it's impossible to make a sub sound good at the high SPL levels most people on the forums use to judge/compare the "sound quality" of a subwoofer (and more times than not it's in a fart-cannon of an enclosure). One sub may agree with your personal subjective preference while another may not.....but neither of them are going to sound good at those levels.At a certain point, nothing sounds good. It's simply too loud for human ears to sound as good as it did at a lower level. In fact, humans often perceive a dirty or clipped sound as louder because it's more harsh on the ear, which equates to what something too loud does. If it's crystal clear, you won't be able to tell how loud it is till you have a reference point. This seldom occurs with bass because of the amount of pressure involved on the ear drum.
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Yes the power is split between the two.
No, not split. They both get full power.
*assumes that there is a non-power limiting crossover in between the two drivers
**obviously ALL reasonable crossovers will limit power to the tweeter as 99.9999% of the time they are more efficient and therefore would be significantly louder if there weren't an L-pad circuit to reduce the output of the tweeter
The question is a bit moot though. Generically speaking tweeters need almost no power in comparison. Therefore you pick your amp based on what the mid needs to get to a level that you want (assuming it can) and the add the tweeter with a reduction circuit to make it match the output of the woofer.
Prove it. Clamp power on a mid and a tweeter using active crossovers so you can't blame it on the passive. Do a full sweep with tones, then do it with music. Post your data.
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When ever i cruise around with my brother. He somtimes likes to turn up the volume to the point where the bass isnt clear at all but has a muffled sound and isnt as loud as it was at a lower volume. Also the speakers distort at such high volume. I hate to admit it to him but he thinks when the bass hits at such high volume the bass that is traveling towards you is being messed up
My belief is when you turn it up high enough, the air flow in the port cause too much air flow and can cause port noise. You can accualy hear the air moving back and forth in the port. My brother's box is about tuned to 46 hz and is about 2-3 c ft. a apline type r with 1200 watts rms
He's clipping it. Other than the fact that it's tuned too high for music, the box has nothing to do with it. It might be box related if it didn't get louder after a certain point, but the fact that it gets quieter and sounds muffled tells me it's getting clipped.
Clipping doesn't always cause it to get quieter, in fact it usually causes an increase in output.
More information is need. What amp? What electrical modifications do you have done? More specs on box?
Does it cause an increase in output? Yes. Do you understand why? I'm guessing you don't because if you did and actually did real world testing what I said would make sense. I didn't say if it was clipping the input or output either. If the input is clipped, the amp can be doing 5 watts and have the same effect. If the equipment hasn't died yet, I'd be willing to guess the HU or preamp in the amp is clipping.
low voltage can lead to bad signal which will make the speaker sound like poop.
Also true.
You know I was reading the topic itself. "muffled sound when volume is high" i had a almost dead on same problem with a component set in my doors. Would sound great even at full volume but maybe a minute into high volume it would act up, would sound as if a pillow was put over the top of them. I was told my amp was up too high, i turned it down and still had the problem. what I think my problem was is that my head unit had a ton of features and I had something turned up too high there, i set the deck to flat and problem went away. Just a thought.
That's a result of clipping the HU or preamp. It was overdriving it. Sounds like you had a Pioneer LOL
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I have heard 2 vehicles walled at the C-pillar and it always sounds like hot garbage for some reason.
It probably wasn't built or designed right. A wall is a wall, if it's done right it doesn't matter what pillar it's at. Perfect example: http://www.caraudio.com/forums/subwoofers/483167-48x-sundown-sa-10s-build.html None of the cab is cut, so it's technically behind the C pillar.
Oh, and it does 160's @ 34 hz now.
Big differance between Hank's wall and most other walls.
Weak score anyway. Just finish a 8 12" wall doing 160's from 30Hz-55Hz.
To that, I say put up or shut up.
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Wouldnt the amount of voltage you get depend on how much power you get from the amp? a lot of amps are different. My opinion i would go for sundown. But i havnt heard from skar audio before
They were designed by Jacob at Sundown.
They are quite similar, not copies, more like cousins.
That doesn't necessarily make them cousins either. For legal reasons I can't mention names, but there is a big name manufacturer that has 1 line of subs designed and built by somebody else, who owns another manufacturer. If you looked at a driver from each manufacturer, you couldn't tell they were designed by the same person unless you know 2 very specific things to look for. In this case, there are some similar design methods, but that isn't always the case.
I believe I know who you mean, were the designs originally stolen from someone else? Lulz.
I bet you don't know who I mean, and I think you may be referring to DC Audio (Direct Copy Audio) who very clearly doesn't design anything and takes other companies proven designs, and fudges them to make them cost less.
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Check your wires and make sure you don't have a single strand potentially arcing or touching metal. Double check all your power and ground connections at the amp and battery also, might have vibrated loose.
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Is the SA8 a great sub? Yes. Is it very capable? Yes. Will 55% less cone area be as loud? Don't get your hopes up. I don't have any experience with those JBL's, but you're trying to make up quite a bit of difference when you aren't starting with an absolutely terrible sub to start with. I'm not saying they can't do it, but don't get disappointed if it doesn't.
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Wouldnt the amount of voltage you get depend on how much power you get from the amp? a lot of amps are different. My opinion i would go for sundown. But i havnt heard from skar audio before
They were designed by Jacob at Sundown.
They are quite similar, not copies, more like cousins.
That doesn't necessarily make them cousins either. For legal reasons I can't mention names, but there is a big name manufacturer that has 1 line of subs designed and built by somebody else, who owns another manufacturer. If you looked at a driver from each manufacturer, you couldn't tell they were designed by the same person unless you know 2 very specific things to look for. In this case, there are some similar design methods, but that isn't always the case.
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Good luck with that.
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I think the real answer has been completely overlooked. It's a generic answer, yes, the power is split. Is it split evenly, not necessarily, but you aren't necessarily getting 100 watts either. Bottom line is, the 100 watts is distributed, not per driver.
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Looks pretty solid to me, as long as the welds are.
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I have heard 2 vehicles walled at the C-pillar and it always sounds like hot garbage for some reason.
It probably wasn't built or designed right. A wall is a wall, if it's done right it doesn't matter what pillar it's at. Perfect example: http://www.caraudio.com/forums/subwoofers/483167-48x-sundown-sa-10s-build.html None of the cab is cut, so it's technically behind the C pillar.
Oh, and it does 160's @ 34 hz now.
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When ever i cruise around with my brother. He somtimes likes to turn up the volume to the point where the bass isnt clear at all but has a muffled sound and isnt as loud as it was at a lower volume. Also the speakers distort at such high volume. I hate to admit it to him but he thinks when the bass hits at such high volume the bass that is traveling towards you is being messed up
My belief is when you turn it up high enough, the air flow in the port cause too much air flow and can cause port noise. You can accualy hear the air moving back and forth in the port. My brother's box is about tuned to 46 hz and is about 2-3 c ft. a apline type r with 1200 watts rms
He's clipping it. Other than the fact that it's tuned too high for music, the box has nothing to do with it. It might be box related if it didn't get louder after a certain point, but the fact that it gets quieter and sounds muffled tells me it's getting clipped.
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I have seen alot of loud single subs.....9 out of 10 times though some kid show's up with
a alpine type R in an ugly silicone box and an abortion of an install and blows it away by a db....LOL
it's not the sub....spending the time testing different boxes/configurations will make any $300 sub loud
BTW....
aint no way to make an L7 sound good..I have tried..square subs sound like they are chewing down a good meal
when the hz drop to the floor...
World Champion in SQ for years had 6 L7 15"s.......
And for quite some time the SQ champ (Gary Biggs) had a pair of SoloX 18's. What's your point? The 18's didn't even play till they did the SPL portion. When I competed in SQ I had a judge tell me there was too much bass from the subs in the back when the amp wasn't even on. I believe this was said because I did a 153 before that.
Subs don't sound bad because of their shape, Xtant's hex sub actually sounds quite good.
Both Eldridge and Biggs, as well as about a dozen other competitors, have used L7's as the subwoofers in their system for the SQ judging portion as well.
Consider this, at what sound levels are the testing? How much are the drivers actually moving? Even if they are moving 1mm, that's not enough use of the suspension for anything to sound terrible. 120 isn't difficult to make sound good.
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I have seen alot of loud single subs.....9 out of 10 times though some kid show's up with
a alpine type R in an ugly silicone box and an abortion of an install and blows it away by a db....LOL
it's not the sub....spending the time testing different boxes/configurations will make any $300 sub loud
BTW....
aint no way to make an L7 sound good..I have tried..square subs sound like they are chewing down a good meal
when the hz drop to the floor...
World Champion in SQ for years had 6 L7 15"s.......
And for quite some time the SQ champ (Gary Biggs) had a pair of SoloX 18's. What's your point? The 18's didn't even play till they did the SPL portion. When I competed in SQ I had a judge tell me there was too much bass from the subs in the back when the amp wasn't even on. I believe this was said because I did a 153 before that.
Subs don't sound bad because of their shape, Xtant's hex sub actually sounds quite good.
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2010 Accord build
in Sundown Audio
Posted
Oh, I forgot to mention the subs.... goal is four Zv2 10's. I think I've figured out a way to make it fit.