Time Alignment and Me.

[Impious 1,476]

Sure bro ... Anything is possible ...

But I'm wondering, aim a driver at a listener, how is the system gonna stage ?? ... Oh yea, I forgot, bandaid it with processing and time alignment ... I guess That's why they came up with single seat judging ... I'd rather a system to sound great from anywhere in the vehicle, playing any kind of music ...

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, so I'm not "arguing" per say, just offering a different point of view. (I like to play devils advocate)

If you try to optimize the stereo for both seats in an automobile, you are necessarily going to have to make sacrifices to the sound for both seats as well. It's a trade-off, you can't have the best of both worlds. You can't optimize performance at both listening positions.

On the other hand, if you optimize for a single seat you can reduce the number of sacrifices you are going to have to make to the sound at that one listening position. Sure, one of the trade-offs is that it sounds like monkey butt from the passenger seat.....but if that means better sound in the drivers seat, where most of us involved in car audio sit....than many consider that a beneficial trade-off.

Good sound in two seats, or better sound in one seat.

[Randal Johnson 544]

I tell you one thing ... This is by one of the best threads I've read/interacted in a long while ... I personally learned a great deal from it, and got a lot of answers to some of my questions for my understanding this portion of car audio ... Thanks guys, Randal ...

Anybody else got any ideas ???

[bassahaulic 155]

Sounds good to me guys ... Like I said "just my suggestions" ... Its all good ... I'm just trying to help ...

Hey Drew, best of luck with your setup. Hope that wall is done by Scrapin the Coast 2011 !!! See you then bro if not sooner !!!

It should be done. As should the new front stage. I'm sure whatever I come up with will sound great!!

I will be referring back to this thread when I start my GF's car for sure. Going for the best sound possible out of her car!

[///M5 2,833]

For those saying a single set is enough, I simply cannot believe this. I have NEVER heard a vehicle that is into the 50's on music that can still hear the vocals worth a damn with a single set.

I can't believe you can't believe this. REALLY simple to look at the t/s and figure out what is going to happen. One quick question for you that should clear this up. How do you think they do it at concerts? If you've NEVER heard a vehicle that can then you should find someone who actually knows how to do an install and listen to their system.

I just want a decent staging.

Now you are getting somewhere, however that is going to mean changing ALL of your front stage...unless of course you give us more of an insight as to what "decent staging" is to you. My definition says there is not way in hell with your doors as they are you are even getting close. No electronics can solve that many issues.

2 6.5s standing up as high as possible on each door pannel crossed over active on the other 2 channels of your 4 channel amp should enhance your stage and give you powerfull, loud, and clear midbass ... If needed extra midbass, then a pair of 6.5s or 8s in the kick pannels running fullrange on an extra amp ...

Height has NOTHING to do with the amount of midbass. Two completely different things there. The only advantage of raising your mids up are to raise your stage.

I doudt you would need any processing/time alignment at this point if installed properly. Maybe some EQing set up to your liking ... But this is where the best place in the install to give your processing/time alignment a shot ...

I agree on the bold, but this is a car with a ton of compromises. Need is subjective, but it will help when applied correctly.

Please note ... All drivers should be (if it was mine) off axis to the listener ... Strong center, deep stage on the dash/hood, and could be very suprising width for that vehicle ...

And that is an asinine statement. On axis, off axis and aiming are all very install and driver dependent. Knowing nothing about either means you cannot comment. Of course you are running poor car audio drivers that are compromised to perform (or at least they should be if not, ouch) off axis. Don't draw your conclusions from what you have...

[bassahaulic 155]

For those saying a single set is enough, I simply cannot believe this. I have NEVER heard a vehicle that is into the 50's on music that can still hear the vocals worth a damn with a single set.

I can't believe you can't believe this. REALLY simple to look at the t/s and figure out what is going to happen. One quick question for you that should clear this up. How do you think they do it at concerts? If you've NEVER heard a vehicle that can then you should find someone who actually knows how to do an install and listen to their system.

I would not know where to begin to look for someone with a 150+ db bass vehicle, that ALSO has a properly set up front stage.

I just want a decent staging.

Now you are getting somewhere, however that is going to mean changing ALL of your front stage...unless of course you give us more of an insight as to what "decent staging" is to you. My definition says there is not way in hell with your doors as they are you are even getting close. No electronics can solve that many issues.

I am well aware with my doors the way they are there is very little I can do to help with staging, the best I have gotten is the sound to seem like it coming from the center of the dash.

The doors are being changed very soon, and they can be whatever I want them to do be. Speakers can go where ever I so please.

[Randal Johnson 544]

2 6.5s standing up as high as possible on each door pannel crossed over active on the other 2 channels of your 4 channel amp should enhance your stage and give you powerfull, loud, and clear midbass ... If needed extra midbass, then a pair of 6.5s or 8s in the kick pannels running fullrange on an extra amp ...

Height has NOTHING to do with the amount of midbass. Two completely different things there. The only advantage of raising your mids up are to raise your stage.

I thought that this (bringing the stage up) was the reason why the thread was here ...

I NEVER said having the 6.5s as high as possible in the doors has ANYTHING to do with the amount of midbass thats in that vehicle ... I said that it helps to enhance the stage by bringing the drivers closer to the tweeters for a better seemless stage ... BIG DIFFERENCE here ... But having 2 6.5s in each door should be ALOT of midbass, don't you think ?? and if needed extra, referr back to the post you quoted me on ...

Please note ... All drivers should be (if it was mine) off axis to the listener ... Strong center, deep stage on the dash/hood, and could be very suprising width for that vehicle ...

And that is an asinine statement. On axis, off axis and aiming are all very install and driver dependent. Knowing nothing about either means you cannot comment. Of course you are running poor car audio drivers that are compromised to perform (or at least they should be if not, ouch) off axis. Don't draw your conclusions from what you have...

At what point in this entire thread, let alone this post, did I say ANYTHING about my vehicle ???

Drew is running RD drivers. This has NOTHING to do with anything that is in my vehicle ... At what point in this thread did I reccomend ANY product, let alone the drivers that I run, to Drew in this thread ??? I apologise to SSA and Drew (bassahaulic) for ranting on this, But M5///, you were way out of line here ...

[Randal Johnson 544]

I tell you one thing ... This is by one of the best threads I've read/interacted in a long while ... I personally learned a great deal from it, and got a lot of answers to some of my questions for my understanding this portion of car audio ... Thanks guys, Randal ...

Anybody else got any ideas ???

up until this post, this thread was very professional ...

For those saying a single set is enough, I simply cannot believe this. I have NEVER heard a vehicle that is into the 50's on music that can still hear the vocals worth a damn with a single set.

I can't believe you can't believe this. REALLY simple to look at the t/s and figure out what is going to happen. One quick question for you that should clear this up. How do you think they do it at concerts? If you've NEVER heard a vehicle that can then you should find someone who actually knows how to do an install and listen to their system.

I just want a decent staging.

Now you are getting somewhere, however that is going to mean changing ALL of your front stage...unless of course you give us more of an insight as to what "decent staging" is to you. My definition says there is not way in hell with your doors as they are you are even getting close. No electronics can solve that many issues.

2 6.5s standing up as high as possible on each door pannel crossed over active on the other 2 channels of your 4 channel amp should enhance your stage and give you powerfull, loud, and clear midbass ... If needed extra midbass, then a pair of 6.5s or 8s in the kick pannels running fullrange on an extra amp ...

Height has NOTHING to do with the amount of midbass. Two completely different things there. The only advantage of raising your mids up are to raise your stage.

I doudt you would need any processing/time alignment at this point if installed properly. Maybe some EQing set up to your liking ... But this is where the best place in the install to give your processing/time alignment a shot ...

I agree on the bold, but this is a car with a ton of compromises. Need is subjective, but it will help when applied correctly.

Please note ... All drivers should be (if it was mine) off axis to the listener ... Strong center, deep stage on the dash/hood, and could be very suprising width for that vehicle ...

And that is an asinine statement. On axis, off axis and aiming are all very install and driver dependent. Knowing nothing about either means you cannot comment. Of course you are running poor car audio drivers that are compromised to perform (or at least they should be if not, ouch) off axis. Don't draw your conclusions from what you have...

What happened here ??? M5///, I had a conversation with Drew at world finals this year. I only spoke on comments we had already talked about ...

[Julian 641]

[bassahaulic 155]

This is a good discussion without people getting upset and going off the wall.

This thread is helping us all learn a lot.

[///M5 2,833]

2 6.5s standing up as high as possible on each door pannel crossed over active on the other 2 channels of your 4 channel amp should enhance your stage and give you powerfull, loud, and clear midbass ... If needed extra midbass, then a pair of 6.5s or 8s in the kick pannels running fullrange on an extra amp ...

Height has NOTHING to do with the amount of midbass. Two completely different things there. The only advantage of raising your mids up are to raise your stage.

I thought that this (bringing the stage up) was the reason why the thread was here ...

I NEVER said having the 6.5s as high as possible in the doors has ANYTHING to do with the amount of midbass thats in that vehicle ... I said that it helps to enhance the stage by bringing the drivers closer to the tweeters for a better seemless stage ... BIG DIFFERENCE here ... But having 2 6.5s in each door should be ALOT of midbass, don't you think ?? and if needed extra, referr back to the post you quoted me on ...

You shouldn't make assumptions as yours seem to regular be wrong. This thread was about time alignment. Read Drew's original post here:

It's kicking my ass.

Who will help me understand it better?

And you definitely stated dual 6.5's high will enhance your stage. Read your own post.

2 6.5s standing up as high as possible on each door pannel crossed over active on the other 2 channels of your 4 channel amp should enhance your stage and give you powerfull, loud, and clear midbass ... If needed extra midbass, then a pair of 6.5s or 8s in the kick pannels running fullrange on an extra amp ...

And no, I don't particular think that 2 6.5's will be monster midbass in particular with how they are currently mounted and what he has chosen for drivers. Using that as a generic recommendation is terrible.

[///M5 2,833]

Please note ... All drivers should be (if it was mine) off axis to the listener ... Strong center, deep stage on the dash/hood, and could be very suprising width for that vehicle ...

And that is an asinine statement. On axis, off axis and aiming are all very install and driver dependent. Knowing nothing about either means you cannot comment. Of course you are running poor car audio drivers that are compromised to perform (or at least they should be if not, ouch) off axis. Don't draw your conclusions from what you have...

At what point in this entire thread, let alone this post, did I say ANYTHING about my vehicle ???

Drew is running RD drivers. This has NOTHING to do with anything that is in my vehicle ... At what point in this thread did I reccomend ANY product, let alone the drivers that I run, to Drew in this thread ??? I apologise to SSA and Drew (bassahaulic) for ranting on this, But M5///, you were way out of line here ...

Randall, my response was rebutting your comment to recommending OFF AXIS which is generally a terrible idea without knowledge. You referenced your tastes which infer your vehicle. I also know that you have "car audio" drivers in your vehicle which SHOULD be designed differently than home audio causing you to lean that way. A rudimentary understanding of speakers would help you here. And where do you see that I said that you recommended any drivers? Only one out of line is the one giving TERRIBLE advice of recommending putting things always off axis. Perhaps before getting defensive you should actually read what you typed.

[Randal Johnson 544]

M5, sir would you please tell us, If it was your ride, how would you set it up ???

Bassahaulic, I give up bro ... I gave my suggestions, I hope it helps a little. Thanks, Randal ...

I just wanted the say thank you again for these kind words. If you need me, you know where to find me.

I got the pleasure of hearing Cableguy's truck at USACi World Finals this year. It was great to say the very least.

When I first got in his truck, I was expecting to see a processor or a high-end expensive head unit. I saw neither, instead I saw a run of the mill Pioneer H/U and a old looking EQ with a few simple adjustments under it. Soon as I started looking around I started noticing the great craftsmanship in the truck, from the custom Kick panels to house the Blue Car Audio 6.5"s, then the Custom A-Pillar's to house the Blue's Car Audio tweeters.

So, I was a little skeptical at first as the only SQ vehicle I had heard prior was a G8 with Focal Utopia's and the Alpine 701 Processor. Then he started playing music and I was instantly greeted with a well centered sound great warm sound. I was simply in disbelief at how well staged it was for such a simple setup.

After a few songs of showing off the staging and front-stage. He play a song to show off the low end, which was amazing clear and loud for a set of 10"s tuned so low. They caught every note with no issues. I was simply astounded.

Great truck Cableguy, really it's amazing.

oh yea ... M5///, if you must point out my mistakes, you could atleast spell my name correctly (its on every one of my post) ...

[Randal Johnson 544]

Sorry for jumping back into this thread but I would like to know that if there is a cut out hole between the enclosure and the door pannel ?? like where the stock speaker use to be ... or something ??

Have you measured that door / area for what we talked about ?? will they fit with a slight diagonal direction, kinda like how they are now ??

[///M5 2,833]

M5, sir would you please tell us, If it was your ride, how would you set it up ???

In keeping this on topic to the thread, simply I wouldn't bother with T/A until I changed out the drivers completely.

I got the pleasure of hearing Cableguy's truck at USACi World Finals this year. It was great to say the very least.

When I first got in his truck, I was expecting to see a processor or a high-end expensive head unit. I saw neither, instead I saw a run of the mill Pioneer H/U and a old looking EQ with a few simple adjustments under it. Soon as I started looking around I started noticing the great craftsmanship in the truck, from the custom Kick panels to house the Blue Car Audio 6.5"s, then the Custom A-Pillar's to house the Blue's Car Audio tweeters.

So, I was a little skeptical at first as the only SQ vehicle I had heard prior was a G8 with Focal Utopia's and the Alpine 701 Processor. Then he started playing music and I was instantly greeted with a well centered sound great warm sound. I was simply in disbelief at how well staged it was for such a simple setup.

After a few songs of showing off the staging and front-stage. He play a song to show off the low end, which was amazing clear and loud for a set of 10"s tuned so low. They caught every note with no issues. I was simply astounded.

Great truck Cableguy, really it's amazing.

Wow, imagine that ANOTHER subjective commentary. Stop with the effing nonsense. Are you so little of a man you have to walk around and point out what compliments people give you? It thoroughly amuses me and not in a pleasant way. Keep subscribing to your golden ear and snake oil theories, fine with me. Not sure what this has to do with T/A since you've stated before you aren't using it as well....

[Randal Johnson 544]

M5, sir would you please tell us, If it was your ride, how would you set it up ???

In keeping this on topic to the thread, simply I wouldn't bother with T/A until I changed out the drivers completely.

So what you are saying here is that Drew has shitty components and needs to be replaced, And the most dedicated moderator in SSA refuses to give advice on a proper install with what the op has to work with ???

[///M5 2,833]

M5, sir would you please tell us, If it was your ride, how would you set it up ???

In keeping this on topic to the thread, simply I wouldn't bother with T/A until I changed out the drivers completely.

So what you are saying here is that Drew has shitty components and needs to be replaced, And the most dedicated moderator in SSA refuses to give advice on a proper install with what the op has to work with ???

I never said that. Please read for once without emotion. The thread was about T/A, you asked what I would do in his shoes, I simply answered that I wouldn't bother with T/A. Why are you so fricking bitter?

[Randal Johnson 544]

M5, sir would you please tell us, If it was your ride, how would you set it up ???

In keeping this on topic to the thread, simply I wouldn't bother with T/A until I changed out the drivers completely.

So what you are saying here is that Drew has shitty components and needs to be replaced, And the most dedicated moderator in SSA refuses to give advice on a proper install with what the op has to work with ???

I never said that. Please read for once without emotion. The thread was about T/A, you asked what I would do in his shoes, I simply answered that I wouldn't bother with T/A. Why are you so fricking bitter?

I was only trying to help out the op and things were going great, and instead of discussing the differences like Impious did. you acused me of not knowing what I was doing. I just gave suggestions, thats all. If I was wrong on anything, lets discuss it so maybe we all can learn something in stead of pointing out the stuff we don't know ...

[///M5 2,833]

M5, sir would you please tell us, If it was your ride, how would you set it up ???

In keeping this on topic to the thread, simply I wouldn't bother with T/A until I changed out the drivers completely.

So what you are saying here is that Drew has shitty components and needs to be replaced, And the most dedicated moderator in SSA refuses to give advice on a proper install with what the op has to work with ???

I never said that. Please read for once without emotion. The thread was about T/A, you asked what I would do in his shoes, I simply answered that I wouldn't bother with T/A. Why are you so fricking bitter?

I was only trying to help out the op and things were going great, and instead of discussing the differences like Impious did. you acused me of not knowing what I was doing. I just gave suggestions, thats all. If I was wrong on anything, lets discuss it so maybe we all can learn something in stead of pointing out the stuff we don't know ...

When are you going to learn that misinforming someone of something is NOT helping. If you'd just drop it when someone clarifies what you say is wrong instead of getting defensive this wouldn't be a problem. And you know I am more than willing to help Drew, but again I don't have the full picture of what he is willing to do and his needs. I asked a while ago and have gotten no response...

I just want a decent staging.

Now you are getting somewhere, however that is going to mean changing ALL of your front stage...unless of course you give us more of an insight as to what "decent staging" is to you. My definition says there is not way in hell with your doors as they are you are even getting close. No electronics can solve that many issues.

[Randal Johnson 544]

Sure bro ... Anything is possible ...

But I'm wondering, aim a driver at a listener, how is the system gonna stage ?? ... Oh yea, I forgot, bandaid it with processing and time alignment ... I guess That's why they came up with single seat judging ... I'd rather a system to sound great from anywhere in the vehicle, playing any kind of music ...

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, so I'm not "arguing" per say, just offering a different point of view. (I like to play devils advocate)

If you try to optimize the stereo for both seats in an automobile, you are necessarily going to have to make sacrifices to the sound for both seats as well. It's a trade-off, you can't have the best of both worlds. You can't optimize performance at both listening positions.

On the other hand, if you optimize for a single seat you can reduce the number of sacrifices you are going to have to make to the sound at that one listening position. Sure, one of the trade-offs is that it sounds like monkey butt from the passenger seat.....but if that means better sound in the drivers seat, where most of us involved in car audio sit....than many consider that a beneficial trade-off.

Good sound in two seats, or better sound in one seat.

At this point, Impious made great conversation and a different experience from what I was use to in Car audio ... VERY PROFESSIONAL !!!

[Randal Johnson 544]

Please note ... All drivers should be (if it was mine) off axis to the listener ... Strong center, deep stage on the dash/hood, and could be very suprising width for that vehicle ...

And that is an asinine statement. On axis, off axis and aiming are all very install and driver dependent. Knowing nothing about either means you cannot comment. Of course you are running poor car audio drivers that are compromised to perform (or at least they should be if not, ouch) off axis. Don't draw your conclusions from what you have...

See the difference here ... If someone done this to you, how would you feel ?? Same subject ... and this was given only a suggestion ...

btw, you have never heard MY (in my vehicle, not the brand) drivers, why would you make such a bold statement in this thread ???

[///M5 2,833]

Please note ... All drivers should be (if it was mine) off axis to the listener ... Strong center, deep stage on the dash/hood, and could be very suprising width for that vehicle ...

And that is an asinine statement. On axis, off axis and aiming are all very install and driver dependent. Knowing nothing about either means you cannot comment. Of course you are running poor car audio drivers that are compromised to perform (or at least they should be if not, ouch) off axis. Don't draw your conclusions from what you have...

See the difference here ... If someone done this to you, how would you feel ?? Same subject ... and this was given only a suggestion ...

btw, you have never heard MY (in my vehicle, not the brand) drivers, why would you make such a bold statement in this thread ???

I get sick of your nonsense. I don't care about YOUR vehicle nor YOUR ears. Subjective nonsense is stupid as is a carte blanche recommendation of installing things on axis. That is similar to saying all subs should be used sealed for SQ. Just flat out wrong. Stop re-acting emotionally and keep it on topic. Drew said it best, no need to get upset and go off a wall. If you want to rebut fine, but stop reacting emotionally.

This is a good discussion without people getting upset and going off the wall.

[Randal Johnson 544]

Yes sir, and thank you for the kind comments on this matter ... You have a good day ...

[BanginGMC 23]

One set of tweeters, or one component set isn't going to work, even if they're positioned perfect. 150+dB on music will drowned it out like there not even there.

Are you sure about this Bro ???

Yes.

One set of tweeters, or one component set isn't going to work, even if they're positioned perfect. 150+dB on music will drowned it out like there not even there.

Wrong.

You just have to install more efficient mids and tweeters. I am over 150 and my vocals and highs are anything but drowned out even with the gains set as low as they will go and another -7 on the tweeter gain at the HU.

Now midbass ........thats another story.

You have more then 1 set of tweeters and mids, no?

I just want a decent staging. Nothing to be ear cumming amazing, if that is what I was after I would already be in touch with a local guy, and no have 150+ db behind me.

For those saying a single set is enough, I simply cannot believe this. I have NEVER heard a vehicle that is into the 50's on music that can still hear the vocals worth a damn with a single set.

And with using the RD crossovers and the single amp, I did not spend the money to change radios to just use the crossovers. Which I no longer have as they caught fire when I did try to use them.

I agree. Now it is different for me, because of my truck with the small cabin.. but i've sat in rides that hit 150+ with a single set of comps.. still didn't hear what WE want to hear.

----------------

People that are saying that it's possible.. have you done it before?

Have you built a 150dB+ on music sub stage that was paired with a front stage with only 2 mids and 2 tweeters? < Looking for YES or NO answers.

If you have, can show us pictures, videos (even though some may think videos are "frickin gay") or anything that will show us the system?

Also, have you sat in a 150dB+ ride for MORE THEN JUST A DEMO? You may think you've gotten the full experience with a demo.. you haven't. It just shocks me that someone can say 2 mids and 2 tweets can be loud enough for 150dB+... i'd literally pay anyone that came to me with a, lets say 160dB car that only had 2 mids and 2 tweets and i could clearly hear the front stage great.

You may think a front stage with 2 mids and 2 tweets is loud, so loud its not even enjoyable or so loud that it's a total overkill.. but put a monster sub stage in it and listen to the front stage... and listen good because you aren't going to hear it easily, if at all.

Now, let the flaming begin.

And just so we're clear, i'd love for someone to prove me wrong.. and now just prove me wrong by comparing something like a concert or giving me specs of drivers and what they're capable of.. prove me wrong by showing us, so we know it can be done. Show us installs that have it done, links, videos, pictures, stats, something other then your words and thoughts.

[Adrian_D 520]

Just because you didn't hear something that can keep up, does that mean that nobody needs to try ?

[BanginGMC 23]

Just because you didn't hear something that can keep up, does that mean that nobody needs to try ?

Not at all, I wan't people to try! I wan't to see it done, I don't think it can be done though.