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Fs has absolutely no correlation at all what so ever to frequency response of the woofer..nor does it mean where the impedance will peak...that is a product of the environment in which the speaker is in and will change according to that environment and the elevation It is simply a natural resonance of the assembly at sea level in an anechoic environment.. higher Fs does not mean you will have louder and less punchy...it's actually more punchy on the n3 because it has an excess of motorforce which dictates the 'transient response' or 'punch' that you are looking at. lower Fs does not mean that it is punchier, actually it can be the total opposite..but it comes down to the soft parts assembly, overall motor strength etc. you can learn way more about a sub given its Vas and Qts than anything..it will tell you WAY more than Fs will. and you never always gain 3dB by doubling power and/or cone area...that's theory, not law. you run into this jacked up thing called diminishing marginal returns that jacks that parade all up.. troll on

It isn't just those 2 pieces of information given by a company that determines the loudness or sound quality of it. It's honestly a combination of A LOT of things!!!!!!! All of those t/s parameters are given for a reason. When designing boxes you use them to model a box a can get an idea of how it will perform. Also the box placement, port placement and port placement also heavily influence the output. It's funny you post this because I am still unsure about all the t/s parameters. I was going to post a thread asking what they are and what to look for when looking at a sub. I have no idea what some of those means. I'm still learning and we all are learning. None of us here know everything lol No system is the same. One crazy loud system in one car may sound like shit in another car. Box plays a very big part in the system. It can make the "best subs" in a shitty box sound horrible but a Walmart sub in an amazing box won't sound too bad and could even be overall better than the better sub in shifty box. This hobby/sport/passion is all about trial and error. You won't know exactly how loud you will get. You have to go out and do it!! I mean you can get a estimate of how loud you will be, but never exact unless trying. Too us your post is very ignorant and kind of funny to me because I've been there when I first started out. I give you props for not flipping out at the comments people posted but asking why it was wrong and continuingly trying to learn. Some people here post threads and don't give any info so we can't help them and they act like such an d bag when we tell them we need more info to help them. Please read the forum's newbie rules. It'll teach you how to make a correct thread. Post a build log!!

SP4 SQ subFS 24.7 This thing goes low. Deep bass! Spl: 87.8dB 1W/1m 3000w RMS this woofer has lots of power but its not efficient so it wouldn't get nearly as loud as the other woofers listed above so.. I didn't list it as a part of the list. I would compare it to a evil, xxx and other subs like that.

Thank god. Your actual understanding of everything you have posted about in this topic is close to zero. This is by far one of the most misinformation filled threads on this forum. If one wanted to go back and correct all of the misinformation you would basically just need to rewrite the entire thread. And I don't have the time for that. Instead let's for now warn anyone reading this thread to simply forget they ever read it. I'm tempted to simply close it.

This is true.If you smoke crack. So many holes in this, I don'y even know where to start filling in. Here's the problem with the internet.

Fi for sure.

wow there's way too much information to go back on here like IMP said there is no way you can correct it all. i would take Sens suggestion and stick around for a while, maybe youll learn something.

I don't know what to say. Anything else would be beating a dead horse. OP, please, for heavens sake, don't judge a driver soley by its t/s. Those t/s are again, only at 1 watt, obviously, do you not understand how many things are effected in real world, past 1 watt? For starters, just about every single soft part changes its property values after 1 watt. And thats just the driver itself, not to include the environmental influences. I would most adhere to the members who have been here for a while, who are actually trying to help. I would simply advise to just take in what some of us are trying to say. It may be difficult to seperate the bad information from the good. But continue to stick around, and further your own research to come to your own conclusion. But where you previously stand, as of now, if BAD information. Also, you've yet to list any details about what kind of environment these drivers would be going in, what kind of power, vehicle, intentions, nothing at all. We can't help you properly without any of this information.

That camera man is a BOSS!

Myth Busted Same enclosure, same power. Axis clearly doesn't dig lower. Axis shows less than 1db more peak which isn't going to be audible. Oh, and since "you don't care about the enclosure, the Axis will dig deeper, the enclosure dictates everything is a myth"......couldn't be more wrong. Obviously not the same enclosure, but THAT'S THE POINT, THE ENCLOSURE AFFECTS THE PERFORMANCE.

The specs gave me that answer.... Post the specs of a subwoofer you think is louder...Okay, it's evident you don't have a fundamental understanding of T/S parameters. That's been proven. Now, even if you did, these alone can not determine a "best" driver. They can only give you an indication of the ideal enclosure and application. There's a myriad of other variables to consider, most notably, application itself. Load the "best" driver into it's "best" enclosure in the "best" application, and send it a bad signal, what do you get? Your statement is akin to saying the highest powered vehicle always wins the race. Its a lot easier to win a race with a race car then it is with a horse and buggy.... I never mentioned enclosures...why would you assume that these high end subwoofers im discussing wouldn't be installed in a properly built box thats tuned for the woofer?? I'm done posting on this topic but I will continue to read it... You can't NOT mention an enclosure. You also have to remember each application is different, each environment is different. Herein lie the issues. Surely I could concoct a race where the horse and buggy have an advantage over the "race car." Again, you are not grasping what we're trying to teach. Don't get mad and run away because you were wrong. Read, understand, and learn. Just be careful as there is a lot of misinformation on the web, including within this thread. You'll be happier, smarter, and perhaps can then entrust your knowledge to others who will one day find themselves in your current shoes.

OMG are they insane?! Only the bomb squad should be handling that!

The specs gave me that answer.... Post the specs of a subwoofer you think is louder...Okay, it's evident you don't have a fundamental understanding of T/S parameters. That's been proven. Now, even if you did, these alone can not determine a "best" driver. They can only give you an indication of the ideal enclosure and application. There's a myriad of other variables to consider, most notably, application itself. Load the "best" driver into it's "best" enclosure in the "best" application, and send it a bad signal, what do you get? Your statement is akin to saying the highest powered vehicle always wins the race.

specs not necessary

Lol at these woofers sounding bad. The enclosure has much more to do with it sounding good or bad than the driver.

I bet they are empty. That truck would be on it's tires if there was lead and brass in there.

And of course my right hand man. You are never too young to rep some SSA swag!!

Some sexy subs right here boys!

Myth Busted Same enclosure, same power. Axis clearly doesn't dig lower. Axis shows less than 1db more peak which isn't going to be audible. Oh, and since "you don't care about the enclosure, the Axis will dig deeper, the enclosure dictates everything is a myth"......couldn't be more wrong. Obviously not the same enclosure, but THAT'S THE POINT, THE ENCLOSURE AFFECTS THE PERFORMANCE. OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's WinSD It knows everyyyyythingggggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Based on WinSD My stock UFO's should have been .5db (at peak)more quite than the custom TC5200's I used. The UFO's were 2.1db louder @ peak freq of 44hz. 1db louder @35hz and .5db more quite @31hz. While the UFO's were louder overall, they lacked the low end extension offered by the 5200's. The frequency transition of the 5200s was much better overall but had a steep roll off around 45-47hz Even tuned low, the UFO's were still very peaky in my opinion. Plain and simple, enclosure does not dictate everything. Just because a given sub is louder at a lower frequency, doesn't mean it sounds better or plays lower. I kept my previous post simple but you guys obviously completely missed the point... WinSD is great and has its place but is far from 80% accurate in real world. Obviously each situation changes and dictates how a driver will preform. I love how everyone is saying there's so much fail yet do nothing to inform people. That in itself is fail. The system response of a loudspeaker in a given enclosure has been verified by over half a century of research. Certainly peak output is going to be affected by things such as power compression which can't be compensated for in an enclosure modeling software, but the shape of the response between predicted and real world (anechoic, not in-vehicle) is going to be consistent so long as the T/S are accurate and the proper conditions are maintained between model and measurement. Which is a long way of saying you were wrong in your Xcon vs Axis comment, and no amount of exclamation point use or sarcasm is going to change that. Also wrong in your comment that the "enclosure dictating everything is a myth", as there is a hell of a lot that the enclosure does dictate. Look at the mathematical models of any system response and you'll see just how much affect the enclosure has. If you would like to disprove Thiele-Small and rewrite the complete mathematical description of loudspeaker performance, then by all means go ahead and submit your paper to societies like the AES for peer review.

Here we go again. IT's funny as you made the blanket statement about the Axis. Now you've been proven wrong and want to spin stuff. Nobody said enlosure dictates everything, IT is by far the largest contribution to the performance of the driver aside from the driver itself. IT's also funny as you state, "I love how everyone is saying there's so much fail yet do nothing to inform people," yet you misinform them with your OPINION, and you even state it as your OPINION. It can be measured as fact and not opinion. You're wrong, you made a mistake, worded what your meant to say incorrectly, or just had a brain fart. We all know the enclosure does not dictate everything, but you OPINION that you can change it will no ill effects is just wrong.

If they are operating above the resonance point of the enclosure they will never cancel each other no matter the difference in power if they are in phase electrically. If one is getting 1 watt and the other is getting 100 watts of an identical signal, then you will get 101 watts worth of output. This is how output sums above resonance, regardless of individual power and even cone size... Your problems are caused by something other than the drivers receiving different power levels.

I ordered my IB315's through Fi's website. The ordering process was very easy to navigate. I had contacted Fi Audio one time after ordering and I received a response within six hours. My subs were shipped by FedEx. They arrived at my doorstep efficiently packaged and unharmed. The subs have no scratches, paint chips, excess glue or any other abnormality. The build quality looks excellent without having any extra unneeded cosmetics.

not sure what the point of this is... but the SP4 should be mentioned for whatever this is... smh

Hmmm... Okay

SP4 SQ sub FS 24.7 This thing goes low. Deep bass! Spl: 87.8dB 1W/1m 3000w RMS this woofer has lots of power but its not efficient so it wouldn't get nearly as loud as the other woofers listed above so.. I didn't list it as a part of the list. I would compare it to a evil, xxx and other subs like that. I haven't a clue where you get all your information. But I would forget everything you think you know. Go back and read all of the mandatory noob threads. If you keep giving all of these ignorant questions and answers you are going to get much much more help around here.

SQL is an actual term. It's frowned upon because hardcore SQ guys think it's SQ or GTFO. Not true. There's actually competition format around SQL, using install, sheer loudness, blending, response ect. Absolutely one driver will sound better than another. I don't give a shit how you build the box. Put a XCON against a tc sounds axis and I guarantee the axis will dig lower. The xcon will probably offer more sheer loudness of course. This whole enclosure dictates everything simply isn't true. Just because a driver is "playing" a certain freq, doesn't mean it's doing it the right way. You can tune N3's to 30 hz and play low notes all day but that doesn't mean it's going to sound good or sound right. An SP4 will most likely sound much better, maybe not as loud on the meter but definitely sound better. Most people don't know how lows should actually sound. Most people think because it's playing a low note then it's a good driver for low end extension.

Myth Busted Same enclosure, same power. Axis clearly doesn't dig lower. Axis shows less than 1db more peak which isn't going to be audible. Oh, and since "you don't care about the enclosure, the Axis will dig deeper, the enclosure dictates everything is a myth"......couldn't be more wrong. Obviously not the same enclosure, but THAT'S THE POINT, THE ENCLOSURE AFFECTS THE PERFORMANCE. OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's WinSD It knows everyyyyythingggggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Based on WinSD My stock UFO's should have been .5db (at peak)more quite than the custom TC5200's I used. The UFO's were 2.1db louder @ peak freq of 44hz. 1db louder @35hz and .5db more quite @31hz. While the UFO's were louder overall, they lacked the low end extension offered by the 5200's. The frequency transition of the 5200s was much better overall but had a steep roll off around 45-47hz Even tuned low, the UFO's were still very peaky in my opinion. Plain and simple, enclosure does not dictate everything. Just because a given sub is louder at a lower frequency, doesn't mean it sounds better or plays lower. I kept my previous post simple but you guys obviously completely missed the point... WinSD is great and has its place but is far from 80% accurate in real world. Obviously each situation changes and dictates how a driver will preform. I love how everyone is saying there's so much fail yet do nothing to inform people. That in itself is fail.

For this im going to compare only 18" woofers.. BTL N3 the king of SPL! This is the loudest subwoofer on the market that I'm aware of.. FS 51 - This thing doesn't go low! Shitty sound quality, but hey this thing is so loud, who cares? lol Spl: 95.3dB 1W/1m super efficient 3000w RMS BTL N2 FS 34 Spl: 94.0dB 1W/1m 2000w RMS ZCON FS 32 Spl: 94.9db 1W/1m 2250w RMS MAYHEM FS 33.7 Spl: 94.8dB 1W/1m 2500w RMS Between the BTL N2, ZCON & MAYHEM..Based on the FS I would think these subs all sound about the same, they would all sound good.. they all are about the same efficiency (High Efficiency) so the important number here is the rms power. The Mayhem takes first place, The ZCON takes second place, and the BTL N3 takes 3rd place. I believe these subwoofers are currently the best woofers on the market, if I failed to mention any worthy subwoofers please list the specs. The BTL N3 isn't similar to the other 3 subwoofers so I will not give it a placement in the contest. DD9500 @ DEATH PENALTY wont even share their specs cause the new more modern subwoofers listed above blow them away??

The specs gave me that answer.... Post the specs of a subwoofer you think is louder...Okay, it's evident you don't have a fundamental understanding of T/S parameters. That's been proven. Now, even if you did, these alone can not determine a "best" driver. They can only give you an indication of the ideal enclosure and application. There's a myriad of other variables to consider, most notably, application itself. Load the "best" driver into it's "best" enclosure in the "best" application, and send it a bad signal, what do you get? Your statement is akin to saying the highest powered vehicle always wins the race. Its a lot easier to win a race with a race car then it is with a horse and buggy.... I never mentioned enclosures...why would you assume that these high end subwoofers im discussing wouldn't be installed in a properly built box thats tuned for the woofer?? I'm done posting on this topic but I will continue to read it...