sundownz

Just sharing my testing... Another one to try in the box programs... model the SA-8 v.1 and the SA-8 v.2 and tell me what, if any, difference you would expect at 30 Hz assuming they are both in 0.6 tuned to 35 Hz. The programs are not even close. There are too many dynamic parameters in speakers for the charts to be as accurate as we would hope in comparing drivers with significantly different design aspects from one another. I find them very useful to calculate port tuning, though!

It really doesn't even do that... the real responses aren't like the graphs at all when we measured them. These days I don't use a box program for anything more than calculating port tuning as they are so often separated by a big margin from what really happens. How are you measuring them? SPL meter in the vehicle under power (~600 watts) at 5 Hz intervals. The giant peak on the ISD graph shown for the Skar woofer simply doesn't happen for instance... the shape of the response is very much like the Obsidian despite a VERY different model. ---- We use box programs to calculate port size and anechoic F3 -- then use knowledge of how things typically react in a car to suggest box spec to customers. Over-studying the graphs in box model programs is something I was VERY guilt of early in my audio years... but I've learned better Well of course the graphs don't match the program, you're measuring in-vehicle I think Duran's point was even though the box programs don't show in-vehicle response, you can compare the relative differences between two different subs. When placed in the same installation, while the response will change, that change will be common to both subs. So you can get an idea of relative differences even though actual response won't be exactly that of the program generated graph. With a little guesstimation you can get a general idea of how the in-vehicle response will look. I understand that... it's not my first day messing with speakers. All of the subs were compared in the same vehicle in the same boxes on the same day so the same transfer function applied to all of them... The large peak the program shows on the VVX does not happen AT ALL. Despite any transfer function added the peak would carry through if it existed. The program is showing large differences that simply aren't there -- eg: It is not accurate. If someone were to study these charts as a way to see "relative differences" between the subs they would gather information that is simply wrong and assume a massive difference in the response curves of the drivers that isn't real. Best case the programs are "better than nothing" -- worst case they give the wrong impression of what is going to happen as is the case of the graphs in this thread used as examples to compare the three woofers in question.

The amp is raised up slightly at the base. Enough to get air in there.

Again... these are all sold and accounted for. Watch out for next pre-order soon. Should be much faster this time as our rectifiers are in stock now. We'll be testing them and shipping next week.

Originally posted on CACO : http://www.caraudioclassifieds.org/forum/sundown-audio/112578-sundown-400w-e-series-15-*vid*-*review*.html ---------- Quoted from Skip01's post below. ---------- Im horrible at writing reviews, but ill try too convey what im thinking too words. Well I guess ill start off by saying.....:thumbsup: Thumbs up Jacob on another HomeRUN id say. Just when we was all too believe SA was arguably the best bang for the buck sub out there....you come out with something that trumps it in price, and in my eyes....doesnt lose hardly any of the great qualities that we all loved about the SA. So when you pull it out of its packaging youre thinking, Hmmm...not much ass too it:icon_smile:..... My expectations was for it too be like most other subs in that lower rms range....like no matter what it should sound weak on low end, and mostly hollow when trying too put in a decent size ported box. Boy was i wrong. The first thing i noticed was the lowend.....JEBUS.....i mean it slaps you in the face when youre not expecting it.......its so unexpected from a sub in its range and cost point. It really sounds like a big boy woofer, lol, whatever that means, sounds so full and deep in all ranges. I had it in my daily challenge box(4.5cu@32hz) which some might think on the big side but it just works....and this sub thrived in it when i had low power on it.....prolly coulda been a lil smaller for peak SPL...but for daily i liked it I couldnt find a weak spot on it.....everything i played it just did it well.....BME CLick, Bass Ballin, Billie Jean, Beamer Benz(too name the Bs, lol)...Billie Jean was prolly my fav performance of the sub....just plays that bass line so smooth, every tone in its place where it should be....ear sex Even after numerous full tilt burps(3500 @ 1ohm) it still showed no signs of fatigue....just smiled and said....Welll? Im rambling here....so ill just say.....for the price, i find this damn near unbeatable for a daily driver.....price, performance, quality, just all exceeds expectations. Thanks again Jacob for this sub :hello::thumbsup:

The amps are on the final truck to us and are in Charlotte this morning. Assuming nobody drops the ball big time we should have them today. Being that they must ALL be tested I am not sure how many if any will ship out today but I'll have tons of pictures at least when they come in and we start testing =) These are ALL sold already -- just an update for those that ordered them.

It really doesn't even do that... the real responses aren't like the graphs at all when we measured them. These days I don't use a box program for anything more than calculating port tuning as they are so often separated by a big margin from what really happens. How are you measuring them? SPL meter in the vehicle under power (~600 watts) at 5 Hz intervals. The giant peak on the ISD graph shown for the Skar woofer simply doesn't happen for instance... the shape of the response is very much like the Obsidian despite a VERY different model. ---- We use box programs to calculate port size and anechoic F3 -- then use knowledge of how things typically react in a car to suggest box spec to customers. Over-studying the graphs in box model programs is something I was VERY guilt of early in my audio years... but I've learned better

Also... we did do a dash score -- 6 Hz lower at 62 Hz : 149.9 dB With a fresh charge it should be over 150 dB but we did so much testing yesterday that was all we got

I am extremely pleased... We went from 152.5 to 153.3 changing from a 3500D to a 4500D -- this is essentially the most possible gain we could have had changing amps. The 4500D is about 33% more powerful which in a perfect world would be just 1 dB gain... the fact that we gained 0.8 dB in reality on ONE EIGHT INCH woofer at this much power tells me just how much more we could still have in this woofer as it's just barely hitting any output compression vs. theory even still.

153.3 video

Big subs come with them -- the ones we build in house like the Z v.3 SA series and smaller do not.

Video Caption : Purposely tearing up an E-10 to demonstrate what it takes to do so. We are seeing *clamped* power of 50-100% of the woofers rating with NO BOX for 3-4 minutes straight in order to hurt the woofer. When using an amplifier rated for 400-500 RMS on these woofers in a day to day situation it will be EXTREMELY difficult to damage them. Again... this was intentional abuse -- any person hearing the type of mechanical noises we did in this testing would obviously turn it down =)

It really doesn't even do that... the real responses aren't like the graphs at all when we measured them. These days I don't use a box program for anything more than calculating port tuning as they are so often separated by a big margin from what really happens.

If that would of shown up before I built my current box, I would of been running those! Some 18s I can run without needing a new amp! new box ?

It sure is -- super low price for what the driver is capable of, IMO.

The OA having a bit more bottom end compared to an SA is an accurate assessment -- on the other side of the spectrum the SA will typically produce more peak SPL up higher contrary to what the chart shows you based on our actual in-vehicle tests. Both are extremely capable drivers... just don't over study the WinISD charts.

I cannot seem to find it off hand... but there is a build for four 8s under a truck sheet.

Amp details will come soon

It's quite necessary as we are actually shifting manufacturing facilities... while I'm at it I am improving them as I'd need to re-tool anyway. Going to a Chinese manufacturer? No, the SAX and SAZ will remain Korean made amps -- just a different Korean factory. As all of our Class-D boards are custom tooled for us in their present form -- so we don't plan to use any stock boards at the new facility either. It's actually been a while for any significant amp changes... I believe other than the NS-1 it was the first of 2011 or so since the last major change.

Yes, we will have room for over 2" one-way on all of the frames and be able to use spiders that will withstand that

Components are in testing but a relatively low priority vs. amps and subs which is what we are best known for.

It's quite necessary as we are actually shifting manufacturing facilities... while I'm at it I am improving them as I'd need to re-tool anyway.

I'm working on alot of stuff right now... I am not 100% sure how much will make it to the market by the end of this year but lets cover what is currently in the pipe-line : 1) Nightshade v.3 -- Already discussed on the forums a bit. This will be 15s and 18s only for a while -- maybe a few 12s for burp apps but NO TENS. 2) New Sundown baskets in 10/12/15 sizes. I can't show off the renderings yet until my ornamental patent application is in... but think at LEAST as much clearance as the "Eclipse" baskets AND even stronger. 18s will definitely not make it for 2012... but are on the road-map for 2013. This will allow me to make the NS v.3 in 12s for music applications. These will be used on everything larger than the SA line. ** -- With the baskets come all new spiders, cones, and surrounds. Some pretty sick stuff... you guys will like it. 3) Entirely new SAX / SAZ amp line... yes you read that correctly. I won't say any more yet until I get some prototypes Only the NS-1 isn't being re-vamped as it's already brand new and a separate line. 4) The elusive "X" line to go between the SA and Z lines (rated 1kw)... this will start to debut once the baskets are done. 12s first, then 15s, then 10s... not sure if all sizes will fit into 2012 yet or not but we will try! So yes our 1kw line will have huge spiders and tons of throw. And YES the X-8 is still in the works... it's just been a huge pain with the vendors but it's still on the table. It's been a while since I made a "coming soon" thread... and you know how I like to keep you guys in the loop ! I'm sure I forgot a few things... but don't worry -- I will update along the way ! PS: The new baskets open up 4" coil designs with high excursion. Hmmmm... Wonder what that could mean for late 2012 to 2013 designs ?! ----- Fun fact : Our new 15" frame tool = ~7.7 lbs 15" Eclipse Style = ~5.0 lbs 15" 12-spoke = ~3.3 lbs 15" 4-spoke = ~2.7 lbs Suffice to say I only wanted to tool this once no matter how heavy I wanted to make a woofer motor in the future. And since basket prices go by the amount of aluminum -- you can see why we won't use it on the SA as it weighs / costs 2.85x more than a 4-spoke Also I've managed to keep the cut-out within about ~8mm (0.3") of a standard frame on the 12s and 15s. It had to grow a bit as the frame material is so much thicker. But to fit the 8 3/8" spider that I've grown to like so much from the Z v.3 15" on the new 10" frame I have to expand it by around 1/2" or so. I wasn't happy with just using a 200mm (8.0") spider since I am doing it I may as well do it the way I want it ! So users will have to do a bit more modding to their box on that one... but hey, that is what it will take to make a 10" worth having, IMO As much as I currently HATE making beefy 10s... this will alleviate my hatred for them as I will be able to make 10s throw down like the video I recently put up of the NS v.3 -- food for thought

If you will have them paid up before they arrive that is fine -- you would need to email me to set it up.