ford302redneck

Test away, we weren't recommending that you don't Just make sure to calculate your true uncertainty so you know exactly what you are testing though...otherwise you really shouldn't bother with the test Correct. I think most personal testing, should stay just that personal. Unless asked for exactly, but then, list all your uncontrollable variables. Example. I personally tested a ZX750.1 and SAZ1500d on the termlab. Exact swap out. ZX tested 144.5dB SAZ tested 145.6dB. Double the "rated" power, but less than perfect 3dB, you will get in a perfect situation. Which a lot of variables played into effect in why I didn't get the full 3dB. Does it mean the Sundown doesn't do rated power? No. But that isn't what I was testing. I was just testing SPL, and happen to do the switch out. I'm glad this thread happened though. Its not that I gained a ton of new knowledge, just now have a new outlook on testing. God I hope I don't start up another argument...but what coils were you using that can be wired to one ohm to get full power from a SAZ-1500d at and then at two ohms to get full power from the ZX750.1? If both were tested at two ohms then that test makes a little more sense. They was both wired to 1ohm. The Kicker wouldn't play music below tuning, but would burp just fine. Another variable of testing, I actually tested 3 amps. Just for fun. I didn't list the first because it was a Sony 1000w(this is what I call it. I say W, not watt because it isn't close to 1000watts.) I think its rated a 400RMS@4ohm bridged. I had it wired to 1ohm bridged. Lol. It didn't have any problem burping, only tried a few though, scared it was going to die on me. But it is a good thing you asked instead of assuming and taking my word. That's semi what this thread was about.

I'm anxious to hear news if you got anymore yet. How do you pronounce Bravox? I don't want to fill like a idiot.

Kicker has a fixed subsonic filter. Its either on and off, and since you owned one, shouldn't you know that? And since when isn't Kicker good quality? What do you suggest that is so much better?( I'm not saying their isn't) OP, MTX 9500s can get quiet loud, and honestly one SA15 at 750rms probably won't be as loud as two 12 9500s on 1500rms(I'm assuming this.)

Test away, we weren't recommending that you don't Just make sure to calculate your true uncertainty so you know exactly what you are testing though...otherwise you really shouldn't bother with the test Correct. I think most personal testing, should stay just that personal. Unless asked for exactly, but then, list all your uncontrollable variables. Example. I personally tested a ZX750.1 and SAZ1500d on the termlab. Exact swap out. ZX tested 144.5dB SAZ tested 145.6dB. Double the "rated" power, but less than perfect 3dB, you will get in a perfect situation. Which a lot of variables played into effect in why I didn't get the full 3dB. Does it mean the Sundown doesn't do rated power? No. But that isn't what I was testing. I was just testing SPL, and happen to do the switch out. I'm glad this thread happened though. Its not that I gained a ton of new knowledge, just now have a new outlook on testing.

Its not arguing but clarifying. If some idiot says that you can't put more than 15w into a BTL and it will blow in the Fi forum would that be an argument? I know it'd be an ass kicking, but can't say that I'd consider it an argument. Just happen to be some people who are getting rubbed the wrong way by fact. Life is going to be hard on them. Not so amusingly you didn't follow it anyways otherwise you'd have your answer, not simple, but nonetheless you surely didn't ask your question in a simple way either. And one more time, there is no place on this forum for spouting of crap information that is wrong. That is the reason this is a better place than others. A thread should be helpful not only for the OP but also those that search and find it. Having crap information that misleads both you and the ones that search is not acceptable. I totally agree with this. Other forums are scared of real discussions and lock the thread before good info is really given. Then delete the members who call out idiots, and prove them wrong with the correct information. *This is a fact. As I was caught up in a forum that does this. And banned because I didn't allow idiots to post wrong/misleading info. On most forums people like reading informational post instead of wrong info post with little vags whining somebody proved them wrong.

Ok here's my thing. Almost all tests have all variables you can't change. And unless you go back in time and in your original test replace the thing your testing. I think if you rule out the variables that will cause the outcome of the test results to really vary. Then test equally, the outcome could be personally used to draw your own conclusion. But I agree there are a lot of people comparing/testing and giving out invalid and biases result. But that's not going to change. Its just your job to find out for yourself why the outcome of the test came out the way it did. And if a variable caused one to be better than the other.

I didn't suggest SA because your not going to get the most out your amp. Why only run your amp at half power instead of spending a little more money and getting a sub that will. A SSA Xcon is made in the USA vs China of the Sundown.(Not saying anything bad, some people its important. Sundown is very good quality.) If you think you'll be happy with the SA go for it. But videos on youtube doesn't really describe much on the sub. Flex videos mean hardly anything. I hope you know that.

My question is how do average people determine which product is for them? Because obviously we can't properly test any of the equipment.. We also can't go by manufacture rating either as they might not of tested properly either. And there way might of been different than others, so therefore not equal to others rating. We can't go by SPL because of the 100s of variables with a swap out. How do we know which is better?

Lol, all subs work in winISD. Read the bold...and while youre at it, read this quote from Nick- All subs work in winISD. winISD isn't a program made to calulate how big a box needs to be, it doesn't predict's a enclosure. That is not what winISD is designed for..... atleast not car audio subs.( or other subs that aren't standard in the program.) If u use winISD for that you are using it wrong. Summarisation: "winISD won't predict "the perfect" enclosure." (atleast not for a lot of subs, especially car-subwoofers) Well, why are car audio subs standard in the program then? I know my version had RE and Adire and even a few others I can't remember off the top of my head. And you say it can't predict the perfect enclosure, then why do you type in box size? It isn't so you can play around with box size, port area and tuning to get the "perfect" box? Sure it doesn't hand the exact box specs and say here's the best one for your install. But that doesn't mean it can't be used that way. Like Nick said, it is used to compare box A to box B, and Sub a to sub B. Is it going to be dead on? No. But I'm sure if you doubts on a subs response in a certain enclosure, it can give you something to look at. It might not be a 100% right but I'd rather look at a graph then spend hundreds of dollars buying the wrong speaker and building a totally wrong enclosure, just because Joe Blow on the forum said without any real proof. Just need to know how to use the program. Its not total useless. I've used it to calculate tuning, and that's it really. Worked very well.

Keeping the amp cool FTW.

AA/Fi subs dont work well in winISD FYI Even IF the program worked well for the subs, there would be too many variables (car, box setup, box size, port area, music. amp power, etc) to just flatout compare the subs' frequency response in the program First of all, you must not of read this thread, as he wants a sub for his home. So the car variable isn't there. Also, you must don't real how a program like that works. Its a box designing program, so what you type in for a box, it will give him a graph. So how will a box, port area be a variable when that's what the graph shows a example of? Sure, these types of programs isn't going to give you a exact description of the response, but it does give you a general idea. Say you type in 3 cuft tuned to 50hz for a 15, its going to show a graph that will have similar results in the field. If these programs are total useless, why is there one? Take a 4th or 6th order, you think you can design these without a program without having ton of experience with them? No. So what's the difference with a normal ported enclosure? Like I said, it won't be exact, but it CAN give you a general idea most of the time. Also, when you refer to AA/Fi not working in this programs, your referring to the higher motor force subs. And according to the program to get a semi flat response, it needs to be in a off the wall size enclosure.

I didn't mean the question directly pointed at you. But anybody who might have the answer. When I first time I really looked at the amp I noticed how tal it was compared to most. And also the holes under the terminals and such. I was quiet interested in why its designed like this. I'm always looking for new ideals, and finding the meaning behind them.

What if the 30 min repeat time on the "mic" was +/- 1dB? Then would you say the same? I know I oversimplified that and it is probably more repeatable, but the uncertainty in that device is around what I stated (and there are a LOT more sources of uncertainty in that test). Again the reason that it isn't valid is that the sum of the uncertainties wasn't added up and thought about in the process which can lead you to the wrong conclusions. Somewhere around Physics 101 you learn about significant digits and uncertainty which are necessary for ALL experiments to be valid. I do understand what your saying. And I can see why the test meanings nothing to you, and why you see it as invalid. But I have a question. If you was in RAM shoes, and you needed to find out which amp was louder in SPL, how would you compare them more equally and actually have a valid test? I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything, but if the way he did it doesn't prove anything. I need to know how to it correctly for future reference.

Word. Last time I asked Jake, he said it was still eating belts. And this was a good while after he told me of the problem to begin with. I need to find another vehicle to trade. I need a few 4500s. Lol.

Yeah, everytime he replies he sends me a PM telling me to check out his thread. Its almost like he's a computer, because he keeps repeating himself. And doesn't take the info people post into consideration. A mod needs to lock this thread.

Come on by I will someday hopefully lol. I keep saying in a few months I will, then don't. But this time I hope to make it happen.

Its designed more for SPL than a N2, but it won't explode if you play music with it. It just has more motor force than Fi recommends for a good daily sub. I'm not understanding why people want to run these daily? The N2 is built for high power handling daily. So why run a sub outside of its designed intentions, when the company makes one that exactly fits? The N3 isn't going to handle anymore power on music than the N2, so there really isn't no real reason to get a N3. Unless your competing in SPL, and play VERY little music. But still the N2 will fit into that category also. But when it comes to tuning, only your install can determine that. Nobody can say a exact frequency without testing where your vehicle peaks at. I hope this clears a few things up.

Unless you have a explanation, don't give out this kind of advise. How can you compare a 15inch 1000rms sub to a 18inch 3000rms sub equally? So before you post,calling people wrong and giving out misleading info, think, you could be one wrong. I never said they were equal.. and thats the point im trying to prove. I own both subs, i cant see a terrible amount of difference between a 15" Q and the 18" Q he is questioning. Honestly you nor anyone out there can convince me the BTL isnt the driver that fits his goals out of the BTL and the Q.. i dont need a big fancy explanation. There is such a tremendous difference between those 2 drivers they shouldnt even be compared. if i was someone who has never physcally touched either driver and started running my mouth cause thats what i read somewhere it would be a different story. Sure, there is a ton of variables. Thats fine. Before you go calling me out, understand this guy obviously doesnt speak good english, he hasnt provided a ton of info and what I get out of this is he says loud low bass. Prove to me how the Q fits the bill for that over the BTL. Hell it appears Nick even tried to tell him the same thing. I didn't say they was equal, I said, how can you compare them equally. But coming in here saying, "Hey, my 18" BTL has more output than my 15" Q did." is a total useless post. As you didn't list any details. So how do I know how you came to that conclusion. When it comes to posting information on forums, you need to state facts and let the OP come to his own conclusion. Instead of him just taking your word, cause your install may be WAY different than his. And his results could be totally different than yours. But like you said, those two drivers really can't be 100% compared because they are meant for two totally different crowds. I didn't say either way the Q or BTL will have the better lowend. I'm telling him he needs to pick subs on power handling. As I think all of Fi's sub has good lowend response. So far he has listed he wants 20hz bass with a ported box, but without knowing how much power he has, I can't say which sub he needs. Say he has a 500rms, would you recommend a BTL? No. Is that enough proof?

Actually, not really. Again not reported within uncertainty and when you add those up they will eclipse more than the .6dB he found. Also, like Impious I am not ripping on the test or findings, but the absurd comment that Ibanender made about the other tests being real. Is Ram's scientific? No. Is it repeatable? I doubt it. Will the same amp likely be louder when tested again? Perhaps and its probably even likely. Its just that VERY minimal changes can make that happen in the situation from all sorts of variables. Hell its so close it could almost be any one of them. I wasn't trying to argue or anything. But RAM got info from his test. And isn't that the reason from testing to begin with? I agree there are a lot of variables, but I just think his counted, to him at least. That is all.

Unless you have a explanation, don't give out this kind of advise. How can you compare a 15inch 1000rms sub to a 18inch 3000rms sub equally? So before you post,calling people wrong and giving out misleading info, think, you could be one wrong.

I am too. I spent plenty of time explaining everything in my first post. Yet he hasn't listened to anything I said. Or anybody else. OP- look. I already posted the BTL N3 is a SPL only sub. Meaning it is made to play ONE tone in a competition setup. You will not want this for a HT instead. Unless you plan on playing a single tone a few seconds at a time. If your questioning the lowend of the BTL, go with the Q. Get a 1000rms amp and tune in the mid 20s. End of thread.

Lol. I was about to say. I got a question about the heatsink design. Why is it so tall? I don't see any parts that need the clearance, is this for cooling purposes?

Ok, I got a point I want to make. You saying SPL testing is invalid because of the variables. Which I agree to a certain extent. But to RAM Design, his test was not invalid. He was testing SPL for his power class, and the Sundown was louder hands down. Now how can't you count that as a valid test? I doubt in his setup, the M1a would of ever been louder. So now what? Sure, if a major variable changed, box design, adding/subjecting input voltage and or impedance change, it could have a different outcome. Point is, his test was valid. It might not apply to everybody but to him, it does. In SPL world, bench test power isn't everything. I rather have a amp that produces higher SPL, than on a test bench, if that's what I'm looking for.

I might have to come up there to work regardless. I hear my old Jeep is still sitting down. Before long it will lose all its SPL dust I left in there. It must miss me and needs some of my tender loving care. Shame on you Jake.

Thanks for posting a picture. Also, 8k at 17volts at 12ohms?!?!