The Natural

Now we're talking about two totally different things. I'm using SPL as in a Webster's dictionary sort of way, and you are saying SPL as in a competition SPL-only system. Your car may not have an SPL system but it does have both SQ and SPL. Same with my car. It's just yours probably has alot more Q in the SQ part, and at some point in the past mine probably had more P in the SPL. Also, when you say an SQ system is to have a perfect frequency response, that may be true for competitions and it might fit your taste, but to me it's a more general term meaning the overal quality of the sound. Many things can be included in the quality of a particular sound. Accuracy (I was thinking clean and undistorted when I thought of accuracy, but I guess I am also saying uncolored and true to the source) and extreme dynamics are high on the list for me, obviously not necessarily in that order. Soundstage and imaging are not as high on the list because my ears haven't been trained well enough to pick out the oboe on my hood. Frankly, I'm happy with that because that would make things that much more frustrating for me.

LSQ...nice trick. I don't think SQ and SPL have to be complete and dire opposites, unless of course you take SPL to mean something like dB Drag. All SQ systems have to have some SPL or you wouldn't hear them right? I don't mean that to be funny, but everyone has different tastes when it comes to system dynamics. I'm sure alot of winning SQ cars over the years could get very loud. Richard Clark's Buick comes to mind (the only time I saw it was at the '96 Georgia Masters Invitational). Six speakers including horns and 15" subs, with a 500 watt amp on each speaker if I remember correctly. I'll bet it would get loud. A good sounding system to me is only annoying if I can't turn it up until my hair moves. I admit that I'm a bit of a basshead, but bass can be clean also. A couple of Soundsplinter RL-s15's or RL-p18's with a USA-2000 on each would be loud and accurate. I dunno, I'm just a music lover I guess. I don't see how anyone could enjoy either a 160dB system that sounded like crap, OR a perfect RTA scoring, SQ contest winning system that only plays 110dB. Granted, the accurate 110dB system would be my choice between the two, but I have to hav a compromise.

"considering what you are doing you will be better off with an 8ohm driver anyways" I was thinking that, but again, have never studied up on it enough. I guess the higher the impedance the load is, the better control the amplifer can maintain over it? Does feeback from the coil moving (is that EMF?) have more effect at lower impedances? Does this work similarly at all frequencies? In other words, would an audiophile want is tweeters, mids, and subs to be 8 ohm as opposed to say... 2 ohm drivers? Also, does it counteract the effect if you bridge the amp? Example: 200 watts at 4 ohms from a single channel of amp A vs 200 watts at 8 ohms from two bridged channels of amp B, all else being equal

You guys got this forum rigged or something? I edited 'ell ess que' back to 'ess que ell' three times and it won't stick!

I understand, and you're right. The question would probably be better aimed at LSQ people. Daily driver types with an ear for good clean sound. All I really wanted to know was whether the AC driver (given it's specs) would be better in my application than the Peerless, or possibly 2 of the Peerless 6.5's. I know there is a complicated relationship between all the components, the vehicle, the install, etc. But now you've raised some more questions in my mind... What are the pluses and minuses of mounting the tweeters in the A pillars vs in the kick panels? Same question for the mids in the doors vs the kick panels? What are, and how great are, the benefits of keeping the mids and tweets close and on the same axis? What active crossovers would you recommend? I have always been partial to the features of the old Coustic models (XM5e seems to come to mind)...would they hold up, sonically, to US Amps, Peerless, and Morel?

Sorry for the confusion. I asked for the expertise of "SQ people". I just got some really good recommendations from another SQ forum before when selecting the Peerless mids, they told me what specs to stay away from if using an IB setup and so forth. The Crunch didn't blow up the Morels, it's only a temporary thing in order to have something to listen to. The almighty power of the USA-2000 did the deed on the Morels. Man do I miss those amps.

I know, what I posted was not a response. Checkout the times...we posted those almost at the same time.

"Before really settling on a driver or even recommending one we should really take a step back and look into your mounting locations, available amplifier power, available crossover networks, installation skills, and of course your listening preferences. Without understanding the whole lot it would be pretty tough to help you narrow down your speaker choice as there are a ton that will work. " --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the input. The car is/was a 1997 Dodge Stratus that I may decide to either keep or get rid of and start with something else now that it has spun a bearing. I've had the Morels in the factory dash location, dare I say it...reflecting off the windshield. I wanted to cross fire them from the base of the A-pillars but their size has kept me from committing. I'm just not sure what that big of a bulge at the base of the A-pillar will look like. The kicks have been another thought...which would be better? The 6.5's are also in factory door positions, which in the 1st Gen Stratus, is a real dissapointment. But I made the cuts needed, beefed up the backside of the panel, and sealed everything up around the location on the panel to at least get a decent IB setup within the doors. Amplifier power now is a Crunch V-Drive 4300 amp bridged into two channels until I can (hopefully) sneak a USA-2000x past my wife. "Correctly" blending my front stage with my bass may be a moot point...I'll always put as much bass in a vehicle that money and space will allow and try to make the best of it with the front stage. But I try to keep everything tunable enough to make some quick adjustments from the diver's seat to accomodate different recordings. It's not always full tilt with the bass, but I like having it available when I want it. Installation skills? Depends on who you ask. The lifelong installer friends of mine laugh and say my skills are nil. But I have been into car audio my whole life, installed every system I've ever owned, fabrication skills are pretty good, and my brother's middle name should be McGuyver. The one thing that might be lacking here is proper driver test equipment, as you stated, and the knowledge to properly match crossover components to the drivers. Plus I can always call on the guru installers mentioned above. I have never competed in SQ (only dB Drag...2002 Extreme 1-2 World Champion BTW...sorry, I just don't get the chance to say that very often anymore! ). I have never owned a 1/3 octave eq, or any serious sound processors for that matter. Think of me more as an Epicenter and 1/2 din parametric eq kind of guy (with the eq mounted in the console so I can keep my fingers on the volume knob). In fact, I actually thought my old Pioneer DEH-P930 had me covered pretty good for processing. Listening preferences? I literally listen to everything but I've always been heavy into classic rock and rap. I always keep some demo discs on hand from Boston Acoustics, Focal, and others. I love my old Spies discs "Music of Espionage", and "For My Friends" by Greg Mathieson. Micheal Jackson's stuff always has great dynamics and great production. I've even been known to keep "Bachbusters" by Don Dorsey in the deck for a week at a time. Some country as of late also. If it is clean, dynamic, and moves me then I'm into it. I hope some of that made sense and yes, I will understand if you give up on me at this point!

I'll post the model of the Peerless 6.5's as soon as I can find my way over to check out the ones I bought my brother, since he hasn't installed them yet. If two of the Peerless 6.5's would be better than the Aurum Cantus 8's, then I might just go that route, but I would buy four new ones since these have a couple years of use on them now.

I absolutely loved the old school USA-2000 I used on my front stage at 8 ohms a few years ago. But, now that I have sold all four that I had (like a nutcase!) I am interested in what would be as good or better in the near future. I am considering switching to a 4 ohm load so I am very interested in the old USA2000x. My questions center around comparing these models to some of the newer lines. Would I be better off with the amps mentioned above or something like AX-1000, AX-2000, MD23, or maybe some similar 4 channel models bridged to 2? I have been thinking old school the whole time because I haven't kept up to date on the new stuff enough to know how it compares. Thanks, Paul

...and here are my beloved tweeters... http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.c...tnumber=277-045 I went with the horn loaded model for the couple of dB of extra sensitivity. I figured it might help me keep me from blowing them up as easy.

Why did I know that you were going to ask that? I'm a little embarrased by this but...here's a link to what I'm using...can't remember the exact crossover point I went with but I think it was 3k... http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cf...tnumber=260-144 I have never read up on building my own crossovers but I have always wanted to. Would the gains of custom matching x-over components to the drivers be worth it or should I just go active? I've been considering each option.

I'm always looking for ways to improve my daily driver. I am not an audiophile that can tell a whole lot about staging and imaging but I do listen to alot of music that reveals the best and/or worst of a system and I do love clean output at extreme listening levels. I have been pretty happy with my Morel tweeters and Peerless 6.5" mids with passive crossovers (my favorite amp on them to date was a US Amps USA-2000 running at only 8 ohms...extremely clean with a ton of headroom. Anyone have any USA-2000x's for sale? ) Anyway...my problems have been as follows: I burned the coils in the 200w rms Morels once already and had to rebuild them...and the two 6.5 Peerless mids cannot keep up with the tweeters. I have considered using two 6.5's per side because my crossovers have a 4ohm jumper built into them but I'm also considering switching to 8's. As you can tell, I listen to my system entirely too loud from time to time and I am tired of replacing damaged speakers. What do you guys think of the Aurum Cantus AC-200MKII? Here's an overview from Parts Express... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aurum Cantus midwoofers feature high-performance cone materials, long-excursion designs, and high quality construction. The AC-200MKII utilizes a special non-woven carbon fiber sandwich cone with foam core for light weight and extreme rigidity. A high-power motor offers exceptional cone control, high sensitivity, and substantial power handling. Specifications: *Power handling: 200 watts RMS/250 watts max *VCdia: 2" *Le: .62 mH *Impedance: 8 ohms *Re: 7.0 ohms *Frequency range: 26-3,500 Hz *Fs: 26 Hz *SPL: 90.0 dB 2.83V/1m *Vas: 2.47 cu. ft. *Qms: 4.41 *Qes: .19 *Qts: .18 *Xmax: 8 mm *Dimensions: A: 8-3/4", B: 7-1/4", C: 3-7/8". Multi-layer composite non-woven carbon fiber cone Heavy-duty chassis, vented pole and extended back plate Large magnet and high-power motor structure ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The 200 watts rms is very important to me for longevity and extreme dynamics, as well as the 8mm Xmax. Fs looks low enough to make a nice sub, is this too low for my application? What other specs stand out to you that would make this a good or bad choice for either an IB or sealed midbass in the car, and why? Thank you, Paul

Yeah sure... 'in the loop' of guys living in a cardboard box and holding a sign that says 'Will work for subs'! It would be nice but I might have to go back to college for that. Or at least wait until the kids move out, which is only like another 18 years! Seriously though, I can't wait to see some pics! Glad to see you guys still doing your thing. I hope all is well with IA and your families.

Hey, I'm an old retired dB Dragger that followed Nick Wright and the Incriminator Audio guys over here. I have been away from car audio for a few years now and was doing some research for a friend that wants me to do his install. Glad I found this place...what better company than a bunch of people that think just like me! I like the forums appearance and so far have seen alot of helpful information being exchanged. I also like the manufacturers I've seen. I hope to be a regular on here for awhile. Paul Nelson

I'm an old acquaintance of Nick Wright of Incriminator Audio fame and followed them over here. Glad I did too...nice community you guys have here! Paul Nelson

Alright Nick...you used to keep me informed on these kind of things. I guess I'm out of 'the loop' now! Send some pics!