If its at 13v on full tilt I would not worry about it. Certainly would not throw money at it. That's above your bats resting voltage.

Agreed.

Definitely not worth $400 to try to get another 1V back at idle.

His alternators are done, have been forever.. I've been waiting on other people to get their sh*t done so I can finish his bracket, he's known this.

The ONLY reason this isn't done is because we are waiting on other people. Waiting on our CNC machines because 2 of our machine shops went out of business, waiting to get the vehicle back that we're using so we can finish the bracket, and that's it. Plain and simple..

Stupid question: If his alts are done and have been forever, and you're just waiting to complete the brackets......why not ship the guy his alts (more than likely the most costly part of this transaction), and DC Power contract and pay for someone like tejcurrent, another manufacturer right here on this forum, to build the brackets?

It seems like this would go a long way towards completing the transaction on a pretty timely basis. At the very least, this would put the biggest chunk of change back into the OP's hands by having a tangible product in his possession. Then the only thing left is the bracket, which if another manufacturer such as tejcurrent can't produce on a timely basis, it's less of a refund that would need to be made by DC. And the OP can be on his merry way finding someone who can build a bracket for him. With all of the machine shops in the US, and another manufacturer right here on this forum whose explicit business is building alt brackets, I can't believe this isn't something that could have been completed at least since the start of this thread.....much less nearly 2 years.

I've heard nothing but good things about the SS DTR amps.

But for the Sundown, I can personally say that it is an amazingly powerful amplifier. I was getting over 2,400w out of mine.

At what THD? That's pretty relevant information.

I was going to get that originally. But leaves no headroom at all. And I might upgrade later on. Like a BTL or zcon.

It doesn't matter what sub you are using. You aren't going to hear a difference between 1500w and 2kw.

If this setup isn't for SPL competitions and is designed primary for daily listening, then don't worry about the extra 500w regardless of subwoofer. If you plan on actually competing in a serious manor then yes, the larger amp would be a better investment. But otherwise, it's unnecessary.

I actually prefer the w6v2 to the W7 but that is besides the point. I have worked with JL products and their company a lot and they are top notch ion every aspect. Great products, service etc. From what I've seen here on SSA, SSA does just as well but I've worked with less of their products. I did have the pleasure of helping build and install an Xcon and it was by every means a good subwoofer. Deep powerful low end that blended well with the rest of the audio system and had the ability to get damn loud for a single 12" sub.

Either way you go, I'd be willing to bet that you'll be a happy guy.

We need to fix that.

I love free samples. especially when you go to the grocery store and they have some awesome pizza or maybe some kind of meat product. Just saying

My employee's New Year's resolution is to quit smoking, so she was excited when she went to Walmart today on lunch and they were giving out free samples of Nicorette patches and gum as they are ridiculously expensive products.

She was telling me about it as she was looking at the pamphlets when she noticed the small print "Samples do not contain any nicotine". She was pissed. It was funny.

Wow! I really appreciate the comments and opinions. Sounds like either way I would go, would be a good choice. Anyone do a driver swap? The recommended enclosures are really close to eachother.

It depends on what type of enclosure you are looking to use.

The W7 is a little better suited to sealed enclosures than the Xcon, the Xcon is a little more suited to ported enclosures than the W7.

CD vs mp3

Here's a comparison of the various LAME settings. I use v0 or v2 for anything lossy (the majority of my collection is in FLAC). You see that v0 is quite a bit smaller than 320kbps CBR but about as good.

Welcome back.

Long time no see.

well i need it to push my two icons. basically trying to make the most i can get in my regular cab...id be pissed if these werent louder than my jl 12W3's (which only had 1000 watts to them)

You'll end up more pissed when you spend a bunch of money on a high powered amp and sub and end up blowing something up because you couldn't actually support the system, or when you don't get anywhere near full potential out of them because you couldn't properly support the system.

IMO you're in over your head. If you weren't even aware of what the "big 3" were, you'll do way more damage than good with a high powered system. You can't toss a 2kw+ amplifier on a stock electrical system and expect to get anywhere near full performance, in addition to running the risk of damaging equipment.

What is your budget for everything.....amplifier, electrical system upgrades, etc? What can you replace/add/upgrade as far as the electrical system is concerned? What does your electrical system consist of now?

I'd say 3-way active is probably not a good choice for someone inexperienced.

Midbass...going to be hard to achieve your goal. If you were able to get a pair of AA Carbons to full excursion at 80hz, for example, you'd be limited to about 107db based on their displacement (excluding affects of the vehicle's acoustics). If you have access to a termlab, grab an 80hz test tone and play it thru your subs, and set the volume so you have 107db of output and see what you think. Enough? Yes? No? That would be the maximum output you could get from the pair, unless your vehicle happened to have a significant boost in the midbass frequencies.

If you want more output you could run larger diameter mids, downfall is that you won't be able to play them as high. You might get lucky and find a large format tweeter that can play fairly low and deal with some potential beaming effects and maybe some worsened distortion or FR issues at the upper end of their range depending on the driver and what xover point you can get away with.

Or you could run a pair of 7" mids. If you used them in a vertical array, used proper spacing and aiming and kept the xover point reasonable, might not be too bad and you'd gain another 6db in output compared to a single pair (assuming you also doubled the amplifier power compared to a single pair). Really, it might even help a little by limiting vertical dispersion which can help reduce reflections from the dash/roof/floor through the some of the mid's frequency range (same reason home audio speakers use this arrangement). It would take a little bit of knowledge to get it right....but if used right, could be advantageous.

If you really wanted to get a little nutty, you could even try to run them ported.

BUT due to the W7 being a 3 ohm subwoofer it puts alot of strain on his Alpine amp........ You are pretty much limited to purchasing a JL amp to run it

Don't see why it would be a problem......it will work perfectly fine on any amp rated stable down to 2ohm. And really, the DCR isn't that odd-ball. DCR on a 12W7 is 2.47ohm. Compare that to a Fi, who's "dual 2ohm" subwoofers have a DCR of 1.4ohm/coil which when wired in series for a "nominal 4ohm load" would be a DCR of 2.8ohm.

So the DCR of the "3ohm" W7 is .33ohm lower than the DCR of Fi's drivers wired to "4ohm".

Heres my opinion: Jl audio is mass produced and although the research is there there speakers are JUST AHHHH AHHH AHHH no SQ at all.

Really, you couldn't be more wrong. The W7 was basically the first low distortion, high linearity, high output driver in the market. The entire purpose of it's design was to improve BL linearity and reduce distortion while also improving output capabilities by increasing cone area and maintaining a high Xmax (which aside from shear output, the benefits of high displacement capabilities are also a benefit from a "sound quality" perspective as well). Really, it's pretty telling that the design is nearly a decade old now and it's still in the top tier of high performance offerings on the market.

You might say "Nonsense! I've heard the subs in my brother's Dakota and it didn't sound good at all!".....and that very well might be the case. But that's not a fault of the driver. Chances are, it was probably a fault of the installation, enclosure, tuning and/or setup and settings. Which makes your listening experience rather meaningless as a point of comparison. Of course it's possible (but unlikely) that the setup, installation and tuning was perfect in your brothers setup. It's also possible (and more likely), that you simply don't enjoy the sound of a lower distortion, linear driver. Your subjective definition of "good sound" might simply be different than what the W7 offers. But that's a difference in subjective preference, not a difference or deficit in "sound quality". But again, since this is based completely on subjective opinion, it's rather meaningless as a point of comparison.

Underground companys(not mainstream) are in this for what it is the LOVE of the sport or hobby/

I would find it hard to believe someone could spend the time, thought and expense to design a driver like the W7 with all of it's unique and innovative features without being in love with audio. It pushed the envelope of performance and innovation a decade ago, and is still holding it's own a decade later.

Also, keep in mind JL Audio got it's start as a mail order speaker business. They were essentially the equivalent of today's "underground" (internet) brands. They just happened to do it extremely well and as a result have grown and experienced a lot of success over time.

I would suggest the XCON because the money is going to be put to a better use like supporting a company that is trying to GROW

That really doesn't make any sense. Every business is trying to grow ?

and make a way better PRODUCT then mainstream

I would say JL took that idea to a new level when they designed and released the W7.

especially since very few brands put out rated power and sundown puts out more than rated. sundown FTW!

Proof required, on both claims.

And I can link you to some reviews of cheap Sony amps showing that even they produce rated power output.....so I'm not so sure your "very few brands put out rated power" is even remotely accurate to start with.

x2, I'm pretty sick and tired of people thinking mainstream products are bad and "underground" "competition" brands are the only way to go...

<------ Waiting for someone to post that link to Jacob's comparative amplifier test.

I'm so sick of having to explain that link.....

This link ?

Yes, that link.

Another option that Fi has, you can re-cone the woofer if you ever have a boo-boo with the volume control.

Not sure how Soundstream CS works.

Specifically stated on Soundstream's SPLX webpage:

• Re-Cone Kits Availble

(Contact Parts Office)

As for the subs themselves.....T/S parameter wise they are darn near identical. Fs and Vas are nearly spot on between the two. The SPLX has slightly higher Qes/Qts although close enough that simple production variances could make them nearly identical. The Fi has slightly higher rated Xmax, but the SPLX has slightly more rated Sd (though I'm not sure if the rating methods for these two parameters are identical, although physically speaking the SPL appears to use a slightly smaller surround which would contribute to slightly more Sd)......so overall, the rated Vd of the drivers are within 1db of each other. Quickly modeling them both in WinISD, in identical enclosures with identical power, their response is nearly identical. Close enough to call them equal. Both use 3' VC's, with the added options on the Fi it may have a slight power handling advantage.

I don't know enough about either sub to really speak towards design or quality. But from a simple gaze at the T/S, I'd call it a toss up.

especially since very few brands put out rated power and sundown puts out more than rated. sundown FTW!

Proof required, on both claims.

And I can link you to some reviews of cheap Sony amps showing that even they produce rated power output.....so I'm not so sure your "very few brands put out rated power" is even remotely accurate to start with.

x2, I'm pretty sick and tired of people thinking mainstream products are bad and "underground" "competition" brands are the only way to go...

<------ Waiting for someone to post that link to Jacob's comparative amplifier test.

I'm so sick of having to explain that link.....

I knew the amplifier class differences would be noted by someone. But a decent full range AB sounds better to my ears than a full range class D. Even my class AB on my Brahma sounded more lively than the class D i replaced it with for a brief time.

Just exchanging amplifiers and claiming to note a difference, doesn't mean you can attribute that difference to one specific variable

You'd need to conduct the proper tests under controlled conditions the proper amount of times to verify results. Unless you've done that, results are invalid.

Amplifiers are pretty well understood. Our hearing mechanisms are pretty well understood.

I've never seen a properly conducted test that validates the audibility of amplifier classes.

Only time I have seen a Line Driver actually make a difference was in my friends 2003 F-150.

He had a 2v Radio and 4 DD M3 amps in the truck. He added a Line Driver and it gained him a full db.

But I tribute that to being able to turn the gains down a little and clean the signal up allowing a better wave form.

Either those amps suck, or it was something else he changed at the same time.

Like not properly readjusting the gain, or atleast not adjusting it to a similar setting.....

They were properly adjusted, and amps are amazing.

Sounds like he readjusted the gains to a different relative setting than they were at before.

I think I'm just going to go with something simple. And see how it comes out, then I can get a better idea on what I exactly want.

So......are you just going 2-way passive then? 2-way active?

I'm sorry, but you're just not giving us enough information to really help you out. I asked detailed questions in my previous post....detailed answers to those questions would get this thread headed in the right direction and allow it to actually provide some useful information.

especially since very few brands put out rated power and sundown puts out more than rated. sundown FTW!

Proof required, on both claims.

And I can link you to some reviews of cheap Sony amps showing that even they produce rated power output.....so I'm not so sure your "very few brands put out rated power" is even remotely accurate to start with.

The new SAX 200.4 makes me feel like everything I ever bought has been wasted money! I hope this isnt going to be considered spam. But I just had to SCREAM IT AT THE TOP OF MY LUNGS!

Why?

I guess I'm not getting something here......

If the left side isn't playing, and you just switch the RCA cables at the input of the MS-8 (i.e. plug the "left" RCA into the "right" input and "right" RCA cable into the "left" input), does the left side begin to play?

If so, sounds like you simply have a bad RCA cable.

Let's start with Midbass.

Thoughts on what I should do?

First, let's better define midbass.

Are you looking at a 2-way or 3-way front stage?

Are you asking for placement suggestions, or driver selections? If the later, we need to 1st determine the installation and constraints, then determine a budget and listening/performance considerations.

What are you and aren't you willing to construct and/or modify in the vehicle?

Are you looking for good imaging and soundstaging?

What type of processing will you have available?

Will you be active or passive?

I know it sounds like we're being pains in the ass and not answering your questions.....but really, we need to get a much better idea about things before we can try to help. You had an outline of what you were doing in your 1st post, but you've kind of been wandering since then in the direction are wanting to take.....so I'm not sure where things stand right now.

Only time I have seen a Line Driver actually make a difference was in my friends 2003 F-150.

He had a 2v Radio and 4 DD M3 amps in the truck. He added a Line Driver and it gained him a full db.

But I tribute that to being able to turn the gains down a little and clean the signal up allowing a better wave form.

Either those amps suck, or it was something else he changed at the same time.

Like not properly readjusting the gain, or atleast not adjusting it to a similar setting.....

It depends on what exactly it is you are trying to do......

About the only "problem" with a square subwoofer is the increased stress at the corners of the surround and stress on the cone. Though all you have to do is physically look at one of Kicker's drivers to see what they did to combat these problems. Within the bandwidth of the driver, these issues probably have more do to with longevity of the driver than actual audibility.

The people making comments about how bad square drivers sound need to step back and realize that it had nothing at all to do with the shape of the cone. First and foremost it comes down to enclosure selection, installation and tuning. Second, the driver's design in terms of mechanical and electrical parameters and performance might have not aligned with their goals.....it wouldn't have mattered if the cone was square or round, the driver was simply not for them.

More companies aren't using them for the simple reason Sean mentioned. The cost of tooling the parts is probably not worth the benefit for most non-mainstream companies such as Fi, etc. You have to custom design and tool a cone, surround and basket at minimum. That's not cheap.

Larger cone area, less efficient, and corners help cause distortion, but can have slightly higher output at low frequencies and can be better in limited space. Google ftw.

"Being as how sound waves travel radially any other shape than round will be both less efficient and distorted."

No. Just no.